Determinations I can make so far:
The engine did NOT have a magnetic oil drain plug.
The piece that stopped the pump definitely can/could have made it through the pickup screen.
The piece that jammed the pump was probably stirred up by my adding the new oil.
The engine never even made one revolution when trying to start after the oil change. The pump jammed instantaniously.
The dents in the pump rotor I believe were from my slow cranking the motor over by hand. 2 dents in each rotor correlates with the 2 revolutions I cranked the motor by hand, looking for TDC #1.
If the motor had run with chunks going through the pump there would have been MUCH more damage.
SO, I can determine that my adding the new oil stirred that chunk of magnetic steel up and over one of the baffles in the pan. It was probably happily living in the pan for a long time in one of the "tubs" formed by the baffles in the pan.
There is still quite a bit of oil in those baffles. Oil that I need to inspect.
Good job Mike. Hope that solves it.
I'm puzzled by "magnetic". What is magnetic in an engine? Magnetic oil plug, but you don't have that. And anything magnetic would have thousand of small specs of metal on it, that's not visible in the pictures. Guess it doesn't matter if it's magnetic or not, it's definitely in the way!
I'm puzzled by "magnetic". What is magnetic in an engine? Magnetic oil plug, but you don't have that. And anything magnetic would have thousand of small specs of metal on it, that's not visible in the pictures. Guess it doesn't matter if it's magnetic or not, it's definitely in the way!
I think he means it will stick to a magnet.
If it was really "magnetic", it would have stuck to just about everything in the block, and most likely wouldn't be stirred up when new oil was poured in. If any part of the screen or pickup was steel, that's where it would be.
If, in real life, that metal chunk looked like the machined piece of steel that it appears to be (in your zoomed in photo, on my iPhone display) - I myself would really want to know where it came from.
But it looks really small, it may be that i think i see tithings that aren't there... I don't want to be pessimistic.....
Rocky
If it was really "magnetic", it would have stuck to just about everything in the block, and most likely wouldn't be stirred up when new oil was poured in. If any part of the screen or pickup was steel, that's where it would be.
If, in real life, that metal chunk looked like the machined piece of steel that it appears to be (in your zoomed in photo, on my iPhone display) - I myself would really want to know where it came from.
But it looks really small, it may be that i think i see tithings that aren't there... I don't want to be pessimistic.....
Rocky
What process do they use to harden camshafts these days ?
If they use induction hardening the cam may be magnetic.
The piece maybe from the cams distributor drive gear in that case.
See if the cam or parts of it is magnetic.
Put a steel feeler gauge in the hole where the distributor goes and see if it wants to stick to the gear.
.
If they use induction hardening the cam may be magnetic.
The piece maybe from the cams distributor drive gear in that case.
See if the cam or parts of it is magnetic.
Put a steel feeler gauge in the hole where the distributor goes and see if it wants to stick to the gear.
.
I found tiny roller bearing pins (I assume from the Jesel Rockers) in the pump. Pin fits right through the screen.
OK, so that's settled. Engine needs to come out, and then I don't know what. Disassembled, inspected, and reassembled? Rebuilt?
I assume I have a failed/failing rocker that's spitting tiny roller bearing pins. Part of one jammed the pump, and I have one complete pin that fell out of the pump.
I haven't checked the oil in the pan yet. There's baffles that hold quite a bit of oil, and I suspect, more roller bearing pins.
I'm debating whether I should try rebuilding the engine myself. I'm broke. I overspent what I had buying what I thought was my dream car, and worth spending the extra money on. Now I'm looking at needing to rebuild the engine.
The roller pins and bits are so small, they could have made their way up into anywhere in the engine, so there's no way I'm going to try and repair the engine. It has to come apart, get inspected, and whatever is necessary needs to be done.
OK, so that's settled. Engine needs to come out, and then I don't know what. Disassembled, inspected, and reassembled? Rebuilt?
I assume I have a failed/failing rocker that's spitting tiny roller bearing pins. Part of one jammed the pump, and I have one complete pin that fell out of the pump.
I haven't checked the oil in the pan yet. There's baffles that hold quite a bit of oil, and I suspect, more roller bearing pins.
I'm debating whether I should try rebuilding the engine myself. I'm broke. I overspent what I had buying what I thought was my dream car, and worth spending the extra money on. Now I'm looking at needing to rebuild the engine.
The roller pins and bits are so small, they could have made their way up into anywhere in the engine, so there's no way I'm going to try and repair the engine. It has to come apart, get inspected, and whatever is necessary needs to be done.
That piece could be from anywhere.
A magnet in the oil pan and one on the bottom of the oil filter would be a cheap solution.
Proportion is difficult to judge from the picture but it does resemble what the tip of the spurs on a gear sychro look like.
The distributor drive gear here is bronze, the roller camshafts are usually steel, but the timing gears are more often than not cast iron.
The tips of the timing gears are the only thing it resembles.
I would look at the distributor drive gears on the camshaft as well just to be safe.
It could be the tip of a tooth on the timing gear BUT you need to find out honestly if this engine had any broken parts in it that were replaced before you bought the car.
It COULD be a "crumb" from a shattered super hardened push rod. When they break, they shatter in pieces into the top of the cylinder head.
The spring rate needed for a mechanical roller camshaft almost guarantees there is that type of push rod in the engine.
When mine broke, it broke on both the rocker arm end and the lifter end. I was fortunate to get all of the pieces before something like this happened.
As I said, with an engine of this nature, it would be a very very good idea to epoxy screens over the drain back holes in the heads.
That will keep them from winding up in the oil pan quickly. You can't do anything about the push rod holes in the heads but that would drop into the lifter gallery so you need to screen those drain back holes too.
IF you are going to do that, get some help on it. You can do way more damage to the engine if one of those screens comes loose.
Epoxy is a ticklish thing long term in an engine.
A magnet in the oil pan and one on the bottom of the oil filter would be a cheap solution.
Proportion is difficult to judge from the picture but it does resemble what the tip of the spurs on a gear sychro look like.
The distributor drive gear here is bronze, the roller camshafts are usually steel, but the timing gears are more often than not cast iron.
The tips of the timing gears are the only thing it resembles.
I would look at the distributor drive gears on the camshaft as well just to be safe.
It could be the tip of a tooth on the timing gear BUT you need to find out honestly if this engine had any broken parts in it that were replaced before you bought the car.
It COULD be a "crumb" from a shattered super hardened push rod. When they break, they shatter in pieces into the top of the cylinder head.
The spring rate needed for a mechanical roller camshaft almost guarantees there is that type of push rod in the engine.
When mine broke, it broke on both the rocker arm end and the lifter end. I was fortunate to get all of the pieces before something like this happened.
As I said, with an engine of this nature, it would be a very very good idea to epoxy screens over the drain back holes in the heads.
That will keep them from winding up in the oil pan quickly. You can't do anything about the push rod holes in the heads but that would drop into the lifter gallery so you need to screen those drain back holes too.
IF you are going to do that, get some help on it. You can do way more damage to the engine if one of those screens comes loose.
Epoxy is a ticklish thing long term in an engine.
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02
Hello Mike; 1 step at a time!
If you think that the piece/s came from a rocker arm needle roller then.
Remove each jesel rocker arm, disassemble & inspect for a/any missing needle rollers.
If there are not any missing, then you can eliminate those parts as the source/s of the metal fragments.
I'm 100% POSITIVE that draining/adding your oil was NOT the causation of dislodging any metal particles, as HARD cornering/acceleration causes a multitude of MORE FORCE to dislodge a metal particle/s then the rather relatively benign action/force of draining/adding oil.
My approach would be this...Check the roller rockers for any lost needle rollers. All needle rollers intact, then proceed to inspect the cam shaft gear, that's intact, then thoroughly inspect the rest of the internals, using compressed air, blow out all passage ways & clean oil pan.
Install new oil pump & reassembly engine, WITH Magnetic drain plug and checking valve lash.
Spin the new oil pump with extension & drill to both test the operation of the oil pump & pre-prime engine.
Install distributor & with spark plugs removed, turn engine over.
Engine turns over fine with NO binding of distributor.
Reinstall spark plugs & start engine, run engine for 20 minutes at various rpms.
Remove magnetic drain plug & inspect for metal particles.
Drain oil through a fine mesh filter/panty hose ( ask Doug for a pair
).
Remove oil filter & cut open, looking for metal particles.
If no metal particles are found, be HAPPY!!!
If metal particles are found, I would try to identify them.
Then install a new filter, reuse the strained oil, refill the engine & run engine another 20 minutes.
Repeat inspection process.
This time if there are metal particles found, I would then disassemble the engine, NO particles...I would think that ALL passage ways are NOW clear of particles due to the "Flushing Filtering" procedure...& BE HAPPY!!!...Mark
If you think that the piece/s came from a rocker arm needle roller then.
Remove each jesel rocker arm, disassemble & inspect for a/any missing needle rollers.
If there are not any missing, then you can eliminate those parts as the source/s of the metal fragments.
I'm 100% POSITIVE that draining/adding your oil was NOT the causation of dislodging any metal particles, as HARD cornering/acceleration causes a multitude of MORE FORCE to dislodge a metal particle/s then the rather relatively benign action/force of draining/adding oil.
My approach would be this...Check the roller rockers for any lost needle rollers. All needle rollers intact, then proceed to inspect the cam shaft gear, that's intact, then thoroughly inspect the rest of the internals, using compressed air, blow out all passage ways & clean oil pan.
Install new oil pump & reassembly engine, WITH Magnetic drain plug and checking valve lash.
Spin the new oil pump with extension & drill to both test the operation of the oil pump & pre-prime engine.
Install distributor & with spark plugs removed, turn engine over.
Engine turns over fine with NO binding of distributor.
Reinstall spark plugs & start engine, run engine for 20 minutes at various rpms.
Remove magnetic drain plug & inspect for metal particles.
Drain oil through a fine mesh filter/panty hose ( ask Doug for a pair
).Remove oil filter & cut open, looking for metal particles.
If no metal particles are found, be HAPPY!!!
If metal particles are found, I would try to identify them.
Then install a new filter, reuse the strained oil, refill the engine & run engine another 20 minutes.
Repeat inspection process.
This time if there are metal particles found, I would then disassemble the engine, NO particles...I would think that ALL passage ways are NOW clear of particles due to the "Flushing Filtering" procedure...& BE HAPPY!!!...Mark
Actually, before you do a lot more, you might want to cut open the old oil filter just to see if there is any very small metal particles there as well.
That's a good precaution on filter changes of rebuilt motors.
Once you cut the filter apart, squeeze the paper element in a vise to get most of the old out out. It's less messy to inspect that way.
That's a good precaution on filter changes of rebuilt motors.
Once you cut the filter apart, squeeze the paper element in a vise to get most of the old out out. It's less messy to inspect that way.
Guys are you not reading what Mike writes? He found roller pins in the oil pump. That means potentially pins everywhere. Maybe from a failed earlier rocker, maybe from a current. That can't be flushed. Yuo can change pump and replace the rocker and hope to be lucky, but don't drive far from home, another pin will mess up that engine one day. The only safe way is to take it out, take it apart, have it professionally flushed, assemble and install. Won't be expensive,but a lot of work
Sorry Mike. Sleep on it
Sorry Mike. Sleep on it
Mike,
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.
A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:
Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.
Mikael,
Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.
This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?
Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:
See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.
Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.
I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.
Paul
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.
A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:
Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02
Mikael,
Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.
This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?
Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:
quote:My tach works only part time
The engine's a full blown Nascar style race engine
I punched it full throttle for the first time giving a friend a ride merging onto the freeway, and Holy Shit! Scared the both of us!
The motor was insane while it ran.
I know after having my engine take a crap on me 3 tankfuls of gas into my new ownership
now I'm doing open heart surgery on my car after driving it maybe 100 miles.
See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.
Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.
I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.
Paul
Mike(s) -
My suggestion to inspect his old filter will add no cost, and might just add to his knowledge base about what is happening in his engine.
The particle in the picture was not a (whole) needle bearing.....
Rocky
My suggestion to inspect his old filter will add no cost, and might just add to his knowledge base about what is happening in his engine.
The particle in the picture was not a (whole) needle bearing.....
Rocky
Roger just mentioned he had a rocker failure a while back, and thought he'd gotten all the pieces. Well, he missed some for sure.
He is telling me to just clean the pan, and put the motor back to work.
He is telling me to just clean the pan, and put the motor back to work.
How do these comments make you question anything I may have done? I didn't overrev the engine, tach or no tach, the engine did run great while it ran, it had insane power. I only punched it full throttle that one time getting on the freeway, and I assure you, I didn't even push the motor close to it's potential.
I was corrected and this engine is closer to a sprint car engine than Nascar. It has Ytaes heads and Jesel Rockers, that's about all I know.
The motor ran perfectly onto the lift, and died the moment I tried to restart it after changing the oil.
I was corrected and this engine is closer to a sprint car engine than Nascar. It has Ytaes heads and Jesel Rockers, that's about all I know.
The motor ran perfectly onto the lift, and died the moment I tried to restart it after changing the oil.
quote:Originally posted by MarsRed:
Mike,
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.
A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:
Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02
Mikael,
Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.
This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?
Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:
quote:My tach works only part time
The engine's a full blown Nascar style race engine
I punched it full throttle for the first time giving a friend a ride merging onto the freeway, and Holy Shit! Scared the both of us!
The motor was insane while it ran.
I know after having my engine take a crap on me 3 tankfuls of gas into my new ownership
now I'm doing open heart surgery on my car after driving it maybe 100 miles.
See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.
Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.
I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.
Paul
Paul you may be right about we should stay out of it. I just gave my $0.02 to a fellow forum'er. He'll make his mind up. But if I had just bought a Pantera, priced to be in working order, and found a rocker had spewed parts in the engine and the seller hadn't cleaned and not even put a magnetic plug in, I know what I would do, I'd expect the seller to fix if.
And since current rockers are not broken, Mike didn't cause this failure
That was approx $0.08
And since current rockers are not broken, Mike didn't cause this failure
That was approx $0.08
Mike, the metal part shown on the finger, could it be that it is in fact from the pump? Does it fit the cavity shown on the pump thingies? Maybe broken off trying to chew the rocker bearing pins?
Now the plot thickens...
Question 1. Had there been PRIOR to Mike's ownership Jesel roller rocker arm failure/s?
Question 2. Did the possibility of a Jesel rocker arm failure lead to the release of needle roller bearings into the engine?
Question 3. Was the Jesel rocker arm failure disclosed to Mike during car's inspection, if in fact one had occurred ?
Only speaking for myself PERSONALLY!
If I had a needle roller rocker arm failure & knew that the possibility of having needle roller bearing "floooooooating" around the internals of my engine was a 100% certainty.
I would HAVE disassembled the engine & undertaken the arduous task of ensuring that the engine was 100% metal particles/fragments free.
An engine's breakin period is where one should expect a cam lobe or lifter to go flat or a myriad of other internal parts to cause problems due to metal particles/fragments vs a "well seasoned engine" as is what we are discussing...Mark
Question 1. Had there been PRIOR to Mike's ownership Jesel roller rocker arm failure/s?
Question 2. Did the possibility of a Jesel rocker arm failure lead to the release of needle roller bearings into the engine?
Question 3. Was the Jesel rocker arm failure disclosed to Mike during car's inspection, if in fact one had occurred ?
Only speaking for myself PERSONALLY!
If I had a needle roller rocker arm failure & knew that the possibility of having needle roller bearing "floooooooating" around the internals of my engine was a 100% certainty.
I would HAVE disassembled the engine & undertaken the arduous task of ensuring that the engine was 100% metal particles/fragments free.
An engine's breakin period is where one should expect a cam lobe or lifter to go flat or a myriad of other internal parts to cause problems due to metal particles/fragments vs a "well seasoned engine" as is what we are discussing...Mark
All the pan stuff is stock Aviaid including the reversion baffle, pickup & brace. Tack-welding the stock screw-in pump pickup (once done to stock pickups) to the body has been know to heat-treat the pressure relief spring very close to the area in question. And it really screws with replacing a pump! I don't use nylocks submerged in hot oil- nylocks (as the name says) are plastic and soften. I'd safety-wire the Aviaid bolts. And finally, a STD pump will be just fine for the street and limited open track.
The solid roller cam also has needle bearings in each of its 16 lifters; pull each pair as I mentioned and inspect closely for damage to wheels & bearings. It's more common to lose needles from a solid-roller lifter than from a roller rocker. The drain-back passages in the Yates C-3 heads should be mechanically cleared as well. Those li'l needles (rocker or other) often get washed forward and tangle with the timing chain.
The solid roller cam also has needle bearings in each of its 16 lifters; pull each pair as I mentioned and inspect closely for damage to wheels & bearings. It's more common to lose needles from a solid-roller lifter than from a roller rocker. The drain-back passages in the Yates C-3 heads should be mechanically cleared as well. Those li'l needles (rocker or other) often get washed forward and tangle with the timing chain.
The short period of time ( 2 seconds) per tack it would take to weld the oil intake tube is NOT sufficient enough time to "Heat Treat" anything, let alone the pressure relief spring.
We are talking about a "tack weld", NOT a full circumference continuous bead.
As a source of reference, I was a Union High Rise Welder, certified to 1" in ALL positions!...Mark
We are talking about a "tack weld", NOT a full circumference continuous bead.
As a source of reference, I was a Union High Rise Welder, certified to 1" in ALL positions!...Mark
Mike,
No offense intended towards you at all. For what it's worth, I believe that you probably have really babied it. I have no cause to doubt your word. No disrespect meant to you by quoting what you wrote earlier.
My comment was only that any coverage from Roger is between you and he. Period.
Now, back to your problem, and again, good luck with fixing it asap and as economically as possible.
Paul
No offense intended towards you at all. For what it's worth, I believe that you probably have really babied it. I have no cause to doubt your word. No disrespect meant to you by quoting what you wrote earlier.
My comment was only that any coverage from Roger is between you and he. Period.
Now, back to your problem, and again, good luck with fixing it asap and as economically as possible.
Paul
I'll repeat what I said pages ago. Peace of mind while driving anywhere beyond the driveway can only come from biting the bullet, pulling the engine, thoroughly flushing, cleaning, inspecting, and reassembling. YOU can do it mostly yourself .. it's not brain surgery. This forum is a rich source of rebuilding help. Also my 2 cents. Good luck.
I completely agree.
However, I am stuck, I rebroke my chestplate overdoing things trying to work on the car myself.
My neighbor is nice enough to help me get the car back together. I'll inspect the rockers, and possibly the lifters if I can (special heads, I'll have to source out gaskets).
The rest of the oil in the pan looks OK, no chucks or shavings, so I'm hoping this is just the last bits of roller bearings from the previously failed rocker that I was not informed about before buying the car.
Hopefully, with the last bits gone, and new oil/clean pan/inspected rockers, that I hopefully will have the motor running again.
Then, if I decide to keep the car, I'll start saving to properly go through the engine.
However, I am stuck, I rebroke my chestplate overdoing things trying to work on the car myself.
My neighbor is nice enough to help me get the car back together. I'll inspect the rockers, and possibly the lifters if I can (special heads, I'll have to source out gaskets).
The rest of the oil in the pan looks OK, no chucks or shavings, so I'm hoping this is just the last bits of roller bearings from the previously failed rocker that I was not informed about before buying the car.
Hopefully, with the last bits gone, and new oil/clean pan/inspected rockers, that I hopefully will have the motor running again.
Then, if I decide to keep the car, I'll start saving to properly go through the engine.
quote:Originally posted by Robbie:
I'll repeat what I said pages ago. Peace of mind while driving anywhere beyond the driveway can only come from biting the bullet, pulling the engine, thoroughly flushing, cleaning, inspecting, and reassembling. YOU can do it mostly yourself .. it's not brain surgery. This forum is a rich source of rebuilding help. Also my 2 cents. Good luck.
Mike,
I think most on this forum have run into problems. Right now my cat just clicks when I turn the key, even with a new battery. I'll trouble shoot tomorrow. It's just part of owning one of the greatest cars ever produced. I know I can't feel your physical pain from your surgery, my dad had 2 triple bypasses and I remember what he went through. You have been a super man with your determination to get things sorted out and I applaud you. I would just kick back have a beer and tackle the issue another day.
When you say you went on the lift, was it a typical lift and you were level and the Pantera was lifted or did you drive up onto the lift/ramp on an angle that could have dislodged the piece into the pickup. My self I would:
Assume the rockers are OK because you said it ran perfectly and you were told one broke in the past.
Check the dizzy to make sure it spins freely.
Look at the cam gear for any chipped teeth.
Get a Moroso pump drive shaft.
Hot tank the pan to get everything out.
Put the pan on.
Stab the dizzy
Then drive it locally till you get confidence in it's dependability then have fun and relax.
Take care of your self first and snow white second, we want to read all your happy tales with snow white in the future.
Curt
I think most on this forum have run into problems. Right now my cat just clicks when I turn the key, even with a new battery. I'll trouble shoot tomorrow. It's just part of owning one of the greatest cars ever produced. I know I can't feel your physical pain from your surgery, my dad had 2 triple bypasses and I remember what he went through. You have been a super man with your determination to get things sorted out and I applaud you. I would just kick back have a beer and tackle the issue another day.
When you say you went on the lift, was it a typical lift and you were level and the Pantera was lifted or did you drive up onto the lift/ramp on an angle that could have dislodged the piece into the pickup. My self I would:
Assume the rockers are OK because you said it ran perfectly and you were told one broke in the past.
Check the dizzy to make sure it spins freely.
Look at the cam gear for any chipped teeth.
Get a Moroso pump drive shaft.
Hot tank the pan to get everything out.
Put the pan on.
Stab the dizzy
Then drive it locally till you get confidence in it's dependability then have fun and relax.
Take care of your self first and snow white second, we want to read all your happy tales with snow white in the future.
Curt
Thanks very much.
Yeah, I've been full speed ahead until that pan came off. I needed to find out what was jamming that pump.
Turns out I find out about a previous rocker failure that was not disclosed when I bought the car.
It DOES look though, like those 2 or 3 bits are all that's in there.
If there's a way to flush the engine from above to try and wash anything bad down and away before we button the car back up, I'd be game for that.
As long as the other rockers check out OK, and I don't find any more bearing bits anywhere, the plan is (with Chuck's help) to button the car back up, and hope that does the trick.
The motor ran super sweet before this glitch. Luckily it never even made one revolution under power, so no damage (other than the dents I put in the old pump rotor by cranking the motor over by hand) was done, the engine never ran without oil pressure.
All the plugs are removed so when it's time, I'll be able to crank the motor over with no loads until I see oil pressure. It's been dry-cranked enough.
If I can get gaskets for the Yates heads, I'll pull the injection and top cover off so I can inspect the lifters as well.
All of this goes completely against what my common sense tells me, which is tear the engine down and rebuild it, but I just don't have the time, money, or tools to do that job presently.
Yeah, I've been full speed ahead until that pan came off. I needed to find out what was jamming that pump.
Turns out I find out about a previous rocker failure that was not disclosed when I bought the car.
It DOES look though, like those 2 or 3 bits are all that's in there.
If there's a way to flush the engine from above to try and wash anything bad down and away before we button the car back up, I'd be game for that.
As long as the other rockers check out OK, and I don't find any more bearing bits anywhere, the plan is (with Chuck's help) to button the car back up, and hope that does the trick.
The motor ran super sweet before this glitch. Luckily it never even made one revolution under power, so no damage (other than the dents I put in the old pump rotor by cranking the motor over by hand) was done, the engine never ran without oil pressure.
All the plugs are removed so when it's time, I'll be able to crank the motor over with no loads until I see oil pressure. It's been dry-cranked enough.
If I can get gaskets for the Yates heads, I'll pull the injection and top cover off so I can inspect the lifters as well.
All of this goes completely against what my common sense tells me, which is tear the engine down and rebuild it, but I just don't have the time, money, or tools to do that job presently.
Your common sense is spot on, wait till you can do it right. A completely lunched motor is a much more expensive proposition.
You will heal, get stronger and be able to do it. Money will come. It will come soon enough. As said above, mostly just your labor.
From someone who has lunched a motor.....
You will heal, get stronger and be able to do it. Money will come. It will come soon enough. As said above, mostly just your labor.
From someone who has lunched a motor.....
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
All of this goes completely against what my common sense tells me, which is tear the engine down and rebuild it, but I just don't have the time, money, or tools to do that job presently.
Well, this is one of the issues with this kind of an engine on the street. The owner.
People just don't get what it means that they (race engines) are subject to unique, separate and individual issues?
This isn't a new story. In fact it's getting kind of old.
Back in the "olden days" if you happen to buy a "race car" from Shelby, you got the stock, as Ford built 289hp, AND YOU put in YOUR OWN race engine.
This eliminated the possibility of hard feelings between Shelby and the new owner over a broken and expensive race engine.
There isn't a shred of doubt on my part, and probably a lot of other people here, that for all intents and purposes this is a FULLY CLAPPED OUT RACE ENGINE, "with all the rights and privileges". It's going to act like one AND BREAK LIKE ONE. GET OVER IT BECAUSE IT WILL BREAK AGAIN! Period.
IT IS NOT GOING TO EXPERIENCE THE SAME LONGEVITY AS A "PRODUCTION ENGINE".
Having said that, NOW you do what every race team would do here, which Roger did, clean all the mess out, put in a new part, and get on with it. I like to think of that as "the first day of the rest of my life." It's just life with an engine like this. It IS a HARSH REALITY.
You put big ugly magnets on this thing to trap the shrapnel that gets loose and when the engine gets to the point where the peripheral damage gets too extensive, you build another one OR put in the spare that you have ready waiting in the wings simply because "you" understood all of this and expect that will happen at some point, sooner or later?
This engine has the same likeliness of surviving that you will "go through one "race" season" on one engine as an "iceberg in Hell" has a chance of surviving.
All that stuff about, "modern roller lifter camshafts being dependable and having the bugs worked out"...well where is it? Doesn't matter this is a rocker arm and not a lifter. LUCKY FOR YOU that's all it is and NOT a lifter!
Like you said, this is a "race engine", but you already knew this before you bought the car right?
Mike,Sorry to hear of your troubles. Let me know if I can take it off of your hands for you
Agree with PanteraDoug completely. Back in the "old" days when you had a car with a engine like this you worked on it all week to run it on weekends, part of life. Today though with computer controlled crate engines, same power and 1000% better reliability.
I've got a buddy who has a 36 foot Specter CAT with 2-575 SC's in the back. He's got one speed, wide open at 107 to 118 mph (depending on beer boxes and chicas) for years. Work done on both engines, change the oil and filters.
I've got a buddy who has a 36 foot Specter CAT with 2-575 SC's in the back. He's got one speed, wide open at 107 to 118 mph (depending on beer boxes and chicas) for years. Work done on both engines, change the oil and filters.
I see this as a blessing. Catching a problem that could lead to a destroyed engine before that happens.
I have pulled out of a pre-paid dyno session because of just this type of warning and it saved me big time.
This is a perfect opportunity to go thru and make sure everything is all right. Race bred engines don't last forever, but with frequent pull downs, parts that do wear out can be replaced before a catastrophe happens. Without changing everything, the easiest way to reduce potential problems is to go to slightly milder cam. The weak link in pushrod engines is the valvetrain.
Just my 2 cents.
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I have pulled out of a pre-paid dyno session because of just this type of warning and it saved me big time.
This is a perfect opportunity to go thru and make sure everything is all right. Race bred engines don't last forever, but with frequent pull downs, parts that do wear out can be replaced before a catastrophe happens. Without changing everything, the easiest way to reduce potential problems is to go to slightly milder cam. The weak link in pushrod engines is the valvetrain.
Just my 2 cents.
.
I'm with Doug on this one. Clean everything out and run it again. It wouldn't be a bad idea to remove the intake manifold and the lifters to see if there is any damage. Once everything is inspected and clean I do not see why there would be more problems. IMO
Fragments have a way of hiding in nooks and crannies. If Mike wants to wash and run it, that is his choice, but I think it is easy to stand back and say run it when you don't have any skin in the game. Mike has already stated his budget is maxed. Grenade it far enough and most everything will need replacing.
Soft brass or aluminum is one thing, steel, graphite steel and iron fragments are another all together.
Sounds like he has made some good friends that can lend a hand and offer guidance. Soon as he heals up would be a great opportunity to do it right.
Again, just My 4 cents.
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Soft brass or aluminum is one thing, steel, graphite steel and iron fragments are another all together.
Sounds like he has made some good friends that can lend a hand and offer guidance. Soon as he heals up would be a great opportunity to do it right.
Again, just My 4 cents.
.
Of course, the right thing to do is fix everything properly.
The engine did run perfectly. Until I changed the oil, where it never even started (so no damage, at least then and there)
I'm cleaning out the pan, installing a thinner screen on the pickup, adding magnets that should catch any more bits.
Chuck has been nice enough to help me get the engine back together.
As it is, I hope it'll be fine cleaning things up, and running it. That's what Roger has told me to do.
I think the bits were living happily in the bottom of the case, and when I poured the new oil into the engine, it washed some bits over the little lip in the pan section, and the offending bit was sucked in instantly. The motor never even made one revolution, so no new damage.
So I figure now all the bits are gone, engine is OK, I have 2 BIG supermagnets now in the pan, and I installed a finer mesh screen on the pickup. The engine will run again soon.
I'll start saving then for a proper rebuild, when I can handle it financially.
I am just disgusted though. This is not what I intended to buy, but I'm here, so it's full speed ahead until it's running again.
The engine did run perfectly. Until I changed the oil, where it never even started (so no damage, at least then and there)
I'm cleaning out the pan, installing a thinner screen on the pickup, adding magnets that should catch any more bits.
Chuck has been nice enough to help me get the engine back together.
As it is, I hope it'll be fine cleaning things up, and running it. That's what Roger has told me to do.
I think the bits were living happily in the bottom of the case, and when I poured the new oil into the engine, it washed some bits over the little lip in the pan section, and the offending bit was sucked in instantly. The motor never even made one revolution, so no new damage.
So I figure now all the bits are gone, engine is OK, I have 2 BIG supermagnets now in the pan, and I installed a finer mesh screen on the pickup. The engine will run again soon.
I'll start saving then for a proper rebuild, when I can handle it financially.
I am just disgusted though. This is not what I intended to buy, but I'm here, so it's full speed ahead until it's running again.
Mike, One step at a time. If it is your decision to clean and put it back together fine go ahead. Don't warp your mind with thoughts of I need to same my money to rebuild the engine unit and unless you have to. Don't loose sight this is a FORD. If this engine becomes destroyed because you didn't get all the rollers out of there it can be replaced with another engine. Patience patience patience. This is supposed to be fun that's why we are called Hobbyists and this is our hobby. Look at it this way - at least you don't have to worry about getting this car running go that you have something to drive to work on Monday morning. LOL Its supposed to be fun. Don't stress out.
If the assumed to needle bearing pieces came from one or more of the current lifters, it will be obvious to you if you measure the rocker arm lash on each lifter and discover one that is excessive. If they are all in spec, it was probably from the previous lifter that was replaced. You can buy those big round flat magnets at Harbor Freight and stick them to the bottom of the oil pan to capture and discourage future ferrous pieces from finding their way into your oil pump.
Have I missed something? I've heard about "roller needles" and I've seen a pic of a fragment that isn't a roller needle. And I've heard about a prior rocker failure which MIGHT be the source of the debris. But I didn't hear any plan to check all existing sources of the roller needles. The magnets and screens may stop metallic fragments from getting in the pump but if the failure is a CURRENT component (rocker, lifter, cam bearing) then firing up and running will result in another damage event. And the fact that it ran for a while doesn't preclude an existing damaged component. You don't have to pull the engine to check other sources of debris. Good insurance policy.
The rockers I checked today. All look to be in perfect condition, so I am assuming the debris came from the previous rocker failure.
There doesn't seem to be any current failures existing (except for the jammed oil pump) so I hope the magnets, and cleaning things, and new oil pump along with finer mesh screen on the pickup should have the motor back running fine.
I was not given the engines history, it would have been nice to know about that. IMO that's the kind of history you mention when selling a top-dollar engine for top-dollar, but that's just me.
I was told the motor was bulletproof (of course I didn't expect the engine to last forever, but I did expect what I was being told I was buying. It turns out that was not the case.
There doesn't seem to be any current failures existing (except for the jammed oil pump) so I hope the magnets, and cleaning things, and new oil pump along with finer mesh screen on the pickup should have the motor back running fine.
I was not given the engines history, it would have been nice to know about that. IMO that's the kind of history you mention when selling a top-dollar engine for top-dollar, but that's just me.
I was told the motor was bulletproof (of course I didn't expect the engine to last forever, but I did expect what I was being told I was buying. It turns out that was not the case.
quote:Originally posted by Robbie:
Have I missed something? I've heard about "roller needles" and I've seen a pic of a fragment that isn't a roller needle. And I've heard about a prior rocker failure which MIGHT be the source of the debris. But I didn't hear any plan to check all existing sources of the roller needles. The magnets and screens may stop metallic fragments from getting in the pump but if the failure is a CURRENT component (rocker, lifter, cam bearing) then firing up and running will result in another damage event. And the fact that it ran for a while doesn't preclude an existing damaged component. You don't have to pull the engine to check other sources of debris. Good insurance policy.
quote:finer mesh screen on the pickup
Sorry Mike if I'm contributing to your concerns, but is this mesh a standard thing? The mesh if too fine may restrict oil entering so you may lose pressure at high rpm?
I don't know, just guessing, I wouldn't dare do that. Have others done that and lived happily with it?
I haven't asked whether the screen is too fine. Monday I plan to make some calls to Aviad and find out. The pickup box is 2"x3" so it's got a lot of area compared to the hole on the pickup tube.
What I CANNOT have happen, is have another chuck of something stop my engine dead cold the way it happened this time.
I'm installing supermagnets into the pan, so they should help pick up anything that might be left in the motor, and the screen mesh is small enough that the offending roller pins cannot make their way through and cause this issue again.
I also plan on dropping the oil weight from 20-50 to 10-40, which should help if the screen does restrict the oil pickup. My oil pressures were very high anyways, so I think the drop in oil weight will be tolerated).
I know also that hot oil is much thinner, and once hot I really don't think I'll have any flow issues with the finer screen, so a good warmup of the oil will be part of my startup procedure (it actually always has been. I know it takes a good 10 minutes for the oil to get hot in any engine).
I'm doing what I can with what I have, until I can deal with this and go through the engine and gearbox properly. I should have enough saved by next year to do those things.
It would have been really nice to have been told about the rocker failure before I bought the car. I was told the engine never had any issues, had low miles (like 5000-6000 miles) and was strong and should last with proper maintenance.
I was fully prepared to do normal maintenance, valve adjustments, oil changes, occasional repairs on parts that fail on a 40-plus year old car (like going through the entire wiring system when I got the car home, because basically nothing worked, no blinkers, no taillights, one headlight, no backup lights, tach only working occasionally) all those things were fun to fix, and what I expected.
Having the motor die after an oil change, and then to find out about a previous rocker failure that sent steel bits all through the engine, THAT, I should have been told about IMO.
I have things cleaned up, the bits are gone, magnets in place, smaller mesh screen in place, the car is ready to reinstall the new oil pump and pan and finish all the other things that need to be done to get the car back running (bolt-in crossmember, new water hoses, distributor pin fixed AGAIN and reinstalled, plugs installed after oil pressure is confirmed, plug wires put back, valve covers installed, air cleaners installed, chrome side covers installed, seats and firewall installed, and much more). It's a huge job. Not what I had planned on when I dropped my life savings on the car.
What I CANNOT have happen, is have another chuck of something stop my engine dead cold the way it happened this time.
I'm installing supermagnets into the pan, so they should help pick up anything that might be left in the motor, and the screen mesh is small enough that the offending roller pins cannot make their way through and cause this issue again.
I also plan on dropping the oil weight from 20-50 to 10-40, which should help if the screen does restrict the oil pickup. My oil pressures were very high anyways, so I think the drop in oil weight will be tolerated).
I know also that hot oil is much thinner, and once hot I really don't think I'll have any flow issues with the finer screen, so a good warmup of the oil will be part of my startup procedure (it actually always has been. I know it takes a good 10 minutes for the oil to get hot in any engine).
I'm doing what I can with what I have, until I can deal with this and go through the engine and gearbox properly. I should have enough saved by next year to do those things.
It would have been really nice to have been told about the rocker failure before I bought the car. I was told the engine never had any issues, had low miles (like 5000-6000 miles) and was strong and should last with proper maintenance.
I was fully prepared to do normal maintenance, valve adjustments, oil changes, occasional repairs on parts that fail on a 40-plus year old car (like going through the entire wiring system when I got the car home, because basically nothing worked, no blinkers, no taillights, one headlight, no backup lights, tach only working occasionally) all those things were fun to fix, and what I expected.
Having the motor die after an oil change, and then to find out about a previous rocker failure that sent steel bits all through the engine, THAT, I should have been told about IMO.
I have things cleaned up, the bits are gone, magnets in place, smaller mesh screen in place, the car is ready to reinstall the new oil pump and pan and finish all the other things that need to be done to get the car back running (bolt-in crossmember, new water hoses, distributor pin fixed AGAIN and reinstalled, plugs installed after oil pressure is confirmed, plug wires put back, valve covers installed, air cleaners installed, chrome side covers installed, seats and firewall installed, and much more). It's a huge job. Not what I had planned on when I dropped my life savings on the car.
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:quote:finer mesh screen on the pickup
Sorry Mike if I'm contributing to your concerns, but is this mesh a standard thing? The mesh if too fine may restrict oil entering so you may lose pressure at high rpm?
I don't know, just guessing, I wouldn't dare do that. Have others done that and lived happily with it?
I would also suggest this. I can't locate the brand (B & b) I installed but this is similar. Much beefier than stock. BTW, I'm not real hot on the extra screen on the oil pickup. Just my opinion.
Pump drive shaft
Pump drive shaft
Thanks,
I already have that piece you gave the link to.
The finer mesh screen is the only way I can guarantee no more bits make their way into the pump. The screen on the pickup is too coarse and will allow another piece of metal or roller pin through easily.
I'll inquire tomorrow, but I'd rather run thinner oil, and take longer to warm up the engine oil, than I would dealing with this mess again.
I'll inquire with Aviad in the morning.
I already have that piece you gave the link to.
The finer mesh screen is the only way I can guarantee no more bits make their way into the pump. The screen on the pickup is too coarse and will allow another piece of metal or roller pin through easily.
I'll inquire tomorrow, but I'd rather run thinner oil, and take longer to warm up the engine oil, than I would dealing with this mess again.
I'll inquire with Aviad in the morning.