Call for help 1 hour North of the SanFrancisco Bay Area (Santa Rosa)

Knowing the Pantera community, I'm envisioning a team forming to help you out even as I write this.

I'm thinking if you can not get a group of "brothers" over to help (read donate time) I would look for a mechanic that works on hot rods. Don't loose sight that this is a FORD 351C not a Ferrari.

I also read one of your previous posts that stated that if you remove the engine you would rebuild the trans also. My advice to you is take it one step at a time. If the trans functions properly and I believe you said it leave it alone. You don't want to know what RBT charges to rebuild a ZF.

Work on getting the pan off and try to find out what happened. You may find that the pump filled up with shavings from the main bearing being spun. Again one step at a time.

Agreed, one step at a time.

I cracked/rebroke my sternum/breastplate, whatever it is they wire together when you have open heart surgery, trying to work on the car on stands in my garage, so now I can't even work on the car myself.

I'm dying to find what's in that oil pump. If the engine needs rebuilding, I don't know what I'll do. It ran great for that hour and a half!

I did find 1/3 of a previously broken distributor drive gear pin at the base of the distributor, although when I asked about it I was told this engine had never sheared a pin.

Regarding the gearbox, Roger said he did the box himself, and it works and shifts smooth as butter. I did find quite a bit of shavings and a few chunklets stuck to the magnetic filler plug, but the trans functions fine, so I'll take your advice and deal with one thing at a time.

I still need to find out what story the oil pan and pump tells.

Regardless, I am just devastated. I spent all my money on the car, it's now dead in the water, I've injured myself, I really don't know what to do next. I really feel like crying.

If I could get help, I'd throw a party, or take everyone out to a super nice dinner, or whatever! I can make it fun, beer, food, anything!

I'm just as stuck as stuck can get with this situation.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
I'm thinking if you can not get a group of "brothers" over to help (read donate time) I would look for a mechanic that works on hot rods. Don't loose sight that this is a FORD 351C not a Ferrari.

I also read one of your previous posts that stated that if you remove the engine you would rebuild the trans also. My advice to you is take it one step at a time. If the trans functions properly and I believe you said it leave it alone. You don't want to know what RBT charges to rebuild a ZF.

Work on getting the pan off and try to find out what happened. You may find that the pump filled up with shavings from the main bearing being spun. Again one step at a time.

There are a lot of Pantera owners in Nor Cal.

What does Roger have to say about this issue?

Is he willing to step up and help correct the problem?

Where are all the Nor Cal folks that should be able to help? Come on guys, help Mike out!

I would be more than willing to help if I was closer.

Roger has been great with responding quickly to all my questions as I've gone along.

I want to keep communications on a good level with him. He did mention something about helping, in passing, kind of, and then he had to go.

I have worked on this car myself, and taken it as far as I can (to the point of injuring myself, overdoing it). Roger has helped with answering all my text and calls. I'm sure (just as I would) the last thing he wants to do is come up and help fix the car.
I haven't asked him directly. Again, I want to maintain good relations with Roger, I like him, this is just a super unfortunate situation.

I know what I would do myself, personally, if the situation were reversed, but that's me.

In fact, the super modified Subaru I sold to buy the Pantera, wouldn't start for the new owner on his trip home to Indiana. He was stuck in Reno. He left at 6pm. I got a call at 11:30, "Im at a gas station, and the car won't start, battery's dead". At 3:30 AM I got in my truck, drove 4 hours to Reno, got the car running for him and he happily drove off to Indiana and is happy with the car.

quote:

Roger has been great with responding quickly to all my questions as I've gone along.

I want to keep communications on a good level with him. He did mention something about helping, in passing, kind of, and then he had to go.

I have worked on this car myself, and taken it as far as I can (to the point of injuring myself, overdoing it). Roger has helped with answering all my text and calls. I'm sure (just as I would) the last thing he wants to do is come up and help fix the car.
I haven't asked him directly. Again, I want to maintain good relations with Roger, I like him, this is just a super unfortunate situation.

I know what I would do myself, personally, if the situation were reversed, but that's me.

In fact, the super modified Subaru I sold to buy the Pantera, wouldn't start for the new owner on his trip home to Indiana. He was stuck in Reno. He left at 6pm. I got a call at 11:30, "Im at a gas station, and the car won't start, battery's dead". At 3:30 AM I got in my truck, drove 4 hours to Reno, got the car running for him and he happily drove off to Indiana and is happy with the car.

Mike,

If it were me and I sold you the car, I would take it back and fix it for you as since I don't think it should have run only one hour. Yes, it is a performance car and all but if it was built right it should survive an hour of new ownership. But that just me, I understand the as-is sale and all but....

I really think there are some fine folks in Nor-Cal that could help out but if it turns out nobody will help you, I will commit to helping you. Me helping isn't the best solution as you would be without your car longer and it would require either I pickup the car or get it sent to me. Both is a pain but I don't think you should be doing anything else on the car until you are 100% healed from your surgery.

Lets see if anyone will step-up to help a fellow Pantera owner in need.

Just know there is a backup plan available so you will have a solution...

Take care, Scott

Hey Mike,

I sent an email to a few of the PCNC guys describing your dilemma to see if anyone can help out. Hopefully someone will respond. I'm unavailable because I'm moving my daughter to Seattle, but if the problem still persists next week, I may be able to make a drive up to Santa Rosa.

What happened to the mobile mechanic who was supposed to come?

Thanks everyone so very much!

My neighbor, Chuck, owns a Pantera as well, I've bugged him for years saying "I'm going to get one of these, I have XXX saved so far" and I know he's a very busy guy and didn't want to bother him, but as luck would have it, he came over and offered to help me with getting the pan off.

SO, tomorrow, my mission is to buy jackstands, fender covers, a long 1/4" extension and universal, and a tub to dump 10 quarts of oil.

Chuck said then he'd help me get the pan off.

I'd taken it as far as I could with what knowledge I have of the car, and then I popped my chest bone apart today under the car trying to loosen big bolts, so I was/am freaking out. The pump/pan will tell the story, and I can't wait to hopefully find something simple stuck in the pump, and have nothing beyond that wrong with the motor, and be back on the road.

Hopefully the pan will be out with Chuck's help in a day or 2. I have the new pump in, ready to pick up. If all goes well I'll be buttoning up my car, vacuming the carpet, reinstalling the firewwall, with my fire breathing engine running smoothly, and then I'll live happily ever after.

Chuck is DA MANG! I'll be indebted to him for his help.

I just need to settle down, I'm on the verge of a breakdown, so Chuck helping me get my oil pan off and we'll know what to do next in a day or 2.

Mike,
Please call or PM me and let me know when you and Chuck will be removing that pan, and I will also come over to help out as best as I can Wednesday and/or Thursday.
Ron
Let's get Snow White back on the road!...........

Thanks Ron,

Tomorrow I'm getting the needed parts and tools, so tomorrow or Thursday I hope Chuck will have time to help me out, probably in the afternoon. I'll let you know a soon as I know.

Look for a torque multiplier. You haven't seen anything until you have to redo the rear axle bearings. +300ft-lbs or as tight as you can get them with a 4 foot pipe on over you 36" 3/4"drive breaker bar!

They call me "Rice Crispies". I snap, crackle and pop first thing in the morning without even adding the milk!

I do admit that I never fractured my breast plate, not to my knowledge, but the cartilage at the bottom tip has taken a beating.

I crushed the cartridge in both knees picking up a piece of furniture. If I can get it to my shoulder, I can carry it. No one told my knees they would compress and not be able to handle it.

Right one has healed, left one still clicks.

If you have a 150 psi compressor, get an air driven impact wrench. Just make sure you are going in the right direction with it before you do anything AND do not hook the air hose with a quick disconnect to it with air pressure in the hose.

It it doesn't hook properly and the air pressure blows it off it will go through the wall. Well, a sheet rock wall. A concrete block wall it will just take a chunk out of and swing around and get you in the back of the head.

Don't invest in the battery power impact wrenches for the Pantera. Not enough power. Probably good for a Fiat, not a Detomaso?

My right hand sounds like cracking ice when I make a fist.

The doctor is just curious and asks, "how did you do that?"

Got a 2" dimple in my right knee. I was using a flooring machine and missed the actuator and hit my knee. Doesn't hurt at all though. Looks nasty.

I probably just killed the nerve there instantly?

When I throw a punch now, I have to throw a right lead, like I am left handed. That means I need to plant my left foot which is the bad knee side, so I have to make sure it is loose and won't fold under me before I oblige?

When you hit a heavy weight you have to make sure he goes down on the first punch otherwise retaliation will likely get you.

The only good thing about that is you don't remember anything when you wake up.

Just thought commiserating with your physical condition MIGHT help some? Maybe this has to do with Pantera ownership? It sounds like most of us are more than just a little "whacky"?

OK,

I spent the whole day preparing for the pan removal.

I went and bought a large floor jack, and jackstands.

I bought the long 1/4" extensions, and universal I'll need to get the pan nuts off.

I bought the new oil pump, spins as free as can be, unlike the one in the car that snaps pins for lunch.

I bought a new oil pan gasket, and silicone sealant.

I bought a new rear main seal, (2 piece) so I can replace the lower half while we're down there.

I bought a creeper, to make things easier while one is working on their back.

I drained the oil, bought a magnetic oil plug when I saw that the one being used was not magnetic (which might have avoided this whole mess).

Chuck says he'll be here around 5, and I have everything as ready as I can have it for him to work his magic. He's had the pan out of his car many times, so this should be par for the course for him (I hope).

Again, my hopes are that something inert or stupid is stuck in the pump, and we can simply install the new pump, reinstall the pan, and button the car up, and I'll be back on the road in a day or 2.

We will hopefully know in a couple hours. I'm hoping the pan comes off without too much difficulty.

Roger called this morning, and said he'd been feeling under the weather the last few days, but he offered to come up tomorrow and help remove the engine from the car. I was very glad to hear that offer from him.

I told him to take a day or 2 to feel better, and that Chuck and I will give removing the pan a shot. If we strike out, then I'd take him up on his offer.

Removing the entire engine/transaxle is a MUCH bigger undertaking, but if the pan won't come out, then it's the only option, and it'll mean a LOT more work.

I truly hope the pan comes off without issue. Roger couldn't remember if he'd studded the block, which would require the engine be raised an inch for the pan to come off, but the motor mount tower bolts are all off anyways (that's what I rebroke my sternum trying to loosen) so even if it's necessary to raise the engine, it should be possible.

I'm going to be there to help Chuck and do what I can, hopefully the next chapter in this story ends with everyone living happily ever after!

Wish us luck!

Mike I have the Aviad oil pan installed on studs, held in place with hex flange nuts.

I do not remember the necessity of raising the engine in order to remove the oil pan, provided that the cross-member is out of the way.

Sounds like everyone in Nor Cal is stepping up to give you a hand as I knew they would! Even Roger has offered to help so looks like you have all the help you need at this point. Time to relax and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck!

The car may have a removable aftermarket cross-member to allow for pan removal. If it doesn't, cut the original off and order the replacement ($90?). Its a lot easier than pulling the motor.
I'd be surprised if the original is still there.
Will

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
The car may have a removable aftermarket cross-member to allow for pan removal. If it doesn't, cut the original off and order the replacement ($90?). Its a lot easier than pulling the motor.
I'd be surprised if the original is still there.
Will

ZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Sawz-all. Weld on two end plates with slotted holes.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
OK,


I bought a new rear main seal, (2 piece) so I can replace the lower half while we're down there.

If the rear main is not leaking, leave it alone !!!

Chuck came and helped today, spent most of the time cutting the crossmember out.

I have a bunch of grinding and sanding to do so the bolt-in crossmember will fit.

Ron Southern came by to help as well.

We are close to dropping the pan, I hope to have the pan dropped tomorrow, and hopefully it's nothing serious.

We'll know tomorrow!

Thanks to everyone for the comments and the help, especially Chuck and Ron (Who was quite the race car driver in his time).

We made progress, tomorrow the pan will come off.

Thanks again to everyone. I am completely stuck, not a position I am used to at all. It's always ME lending help, or money, and now I find myself in this position. I am not comfortable needing help, but it is great to know that help IS there. I can't thank everyone enough.

We still have to find out what's in the pump, so the story isn't over yet!

Stay tuned.

The Battleground........

Chuck and Mike during the battle of the crossmember..........

It finally surrendered, and it's out!........

Out with the old, in (soon) with the new..........

Here Chuck (as Mike said "he is the mang") won't let Mike hit it with a hammer until tomorrow's battle of the pan/oil pump..........

Good Lord......that looks like one hell of a motor !!

quote:

Originally posted by PanTTera:
Here Chuck (as Mike said "he is the mang") won't let Mike hit it with a hammer until tomorrow's battle of the pan/oil pump..........

You've been warned...don't let me catch you now young man or else!


Everyone has jackets on in there. Good Lord it must be down into the 50's? How can you stand it?

quote:

Originally posted by PanTTera:
Out with the old, in (soon) with the new..........

would you say if one is doing a rebuild that a removable cross memeber is a MUST do?

(the other impression I am begining to devolp is maybe that Pantera ownership is something that is too late for me )

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanTTera:
Out with the old, in (soon) with the new..........

would you say if one is doing a rebuild that a removable cross memeber is a MUST do?

(the other impression I am begining to devolp is maybe that Pantera ownership is something that is too late for me )

It isn't a "required" modification, it is a convenience thing just for this kind of a situation. It makes dropping the pan much easier.

Too late? I already fixed the passenger seat so I can fit into it comfortably.

I just need to find someone to drive me around in it.

My sons are of no use for that UNLESS you like to be on an 8 or 9 hour ROLLER COASTER ride...all down hill!

Oh geese...there goes my stomach again...butterfly flashbacks!

Engine rebuild, or crossmember cutaway (as we are doing) isn't impossible.

It took an evening to chisel and sawzall and old crossmember out, still have grinding to do.

I'd say removing the engine/trans is similar to removing that of most cars (if that's the goal) maybe a little harder.

Chuck warned me Pantera ownership is a love/hate thing. I just hope I'm getting the "hate" part out of the way first, so there'll be lots of love after this!

quote:

would you say if one is doing a rebuild that a removable cross memeber is a MUST do?

It's not necessarily a "must do," but it is a very good idea. Otherwise you can't remove the pan with the engine in the car. And, it's a LOT easier to remove the cross member when the engine is out of the car than doing it upside down from the ground underneath the car.

It also allows you to install the lower chassis stiffening kit which mounts in the same location.

My acr already has a large frame brace that removed in a minute.

Chuck and Roc came back this afternoon.

Chuck FINALLY got the oil pan and oil pump off.

I found a chunk of magnetic crap in the pump, causing the pump to freeze up.


There's two dents in each lobe of the pump rotor, but I suspect those may have gotten there when I cranked the engine over by hand.

It looks like a chunk of magnetic steel got stuck in the pump on startup after changing the oil.

I don't think the pump even made one revolution.

The oil pan has a lot of residueand leftover oil due the baffles. Tomorrow I'll pour that through screen and see if there's a bunch of chunks in the oil.

The jury is still out. I've found magnetic chunks in the oil pump that locked it up. Small enough to make it through the screen, but it takes the smallest piece of crap to stop that pump.

I'm too exhausted to do anything else tonight.

Ill spend tomorrow checking out the pump and the oil in the pan.

That is bizarre.

When you say "magnetic" do you mean the particles themselves are magnetized ? not just attracted to a magnet like iron filings ?

I would find the oil bottle you filled the engine up with and cut it open , see if your new oil was contaminated in any way.

I cant imagine where "magnetic" particles could come from, there is nothing in the engine that is magnetic.

The only thing may be some thing like a magnetic sump plug if it had one, but the magnetism should hold that together.

Very strange.


.

The removal of the sump.........
(black bits are gasket material from the removal)

Was followed by the pump.........

To find the offending tiny magnetic lump.........

And the resulting pump rotor bumps..........
A detailed exam of the pump and the pan's remaining contents will provide a plan for the re-assembly, beginning with a new OEM pump.

Also maybe an optical illusion, but are you able to press that piece of metal through the screen? Doesn't look like it.

(I've never before seen the bracket that stabilizes the pick up, is that and the complexity/potential loose bolts really better than 3 spot welds?)

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Also maybe an optical illusion, but are you able to press that piece of metal through the screen? Doesn't look like it.

(I've never before seen the bracket that stabilizes the pick up, is that and the complexity/potential loose bolts really better than 3 spot welds?)

Hello Mikael; I was thinking the EXACT same thing in regards to the oil pick up stabilizer!

Also appears that the nuts are not nyloc.

I agree a "simple" tack weld would be a MUCH simpler solution & eliminating the potential for various components of the stabilizer to come loose...Mark

The support on the pick up is great just needs nyloc nut from the hardware store and safety wire on the 4 pump bolts. The tack weld is better than nothing. Pressed in pick ups can fall off at high RPM , you look threaded .
I am surprised that got through the pick up screen. Might want to look that over real well.
I would get a new heavy duty pump drive the old one has taken a few hits and it will be cheap compared to doing this again.
When you get past this Garth is right about the chassis brace kit. Best up grade I ever made, you can feel the added rigidity in the seat of your pants. Only question is , does the rear tub still fit? Mine was long gone when I got the car. All the vendors sell a version. Got mine from Precision , try to buy stuff from all the major shops.
If you need to arc weld on the car , please protect all the electronics!!!!

Having gone this far, I should think a thorough inspection of the engine's internals would be in order, to find the source of the metal bits. I'm thinking cam - dizzy gear set, or perhaps a shard from a broken dizzy drive pin. Good luck, and good to see you got the help you needed.