Call for help 1 hour North of the SanFrancisco Bay Area (Santa Rosa)

Knowing the Pantera community, I'm envisioning a team forming to help you out even as I write this.

I'm thinking if you can not get a group of "brothers" over to help (read donate time) I would look for a mechanic that works on hot rods. Don't loose sight that this is a FORD 351C not a Ferrari.

I also read one of your previous posts that stated that if you remove the engine you would rebuild the trans also. My advice to you is take it one step at a time. If the trans functions properly and I believe you said it leave it alone. You don't want to know what RBT charges to rebuild a ZF.

Work on getting the pan off and try to find out what happened. You may find that the pump filled up with shavings from the main bearing being spun. Again one step at a time.

Agreed, one step at a time.

I cracked/rebroke my sternum/breastplate, whatever it is they wire together when you have open heart surgery, trying to work on the car on stands in my garage, so now I can't even work on the car myself.

I'm dying to find what's in that oil pump. If the engine needs rebuilding, I don't know what I'll do. It ran great for that hour and a half!

I did find 1/3 of a previously broken distributor drive gear pin at the base of the distributor, although when I asked about it I was told this engine had never sheared a pin.

Regarding the gearbox, Roger said he did the box himself, and it works and shifts smooth as butter. I did find quite a bit of shavings and a few chunklets stuck to the magnetic filler plug, but the trans functions fine, so I'll take your advice and deal with one thing at a time.

I still need to find out what story the oil pan and pump tells.

Regardless, I am just devastated. I spent all my money on the car, it's now dead in the water, I've injured myself, I really don't know what to do next. I really feel like crying.

If I could get help, I'd throw a party, or take everyone out to a super nice dinner, or whatever! I can make it fun, beer, food, anything!

I'm just as stuck as stuck can get with this situation.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
I'm thinking if you can not get a group of "brothers" over to help (read donate time) I would look for a mechanic that works on hot rods. Don't loose sight that this is a FORD 351C not a Ferrari.

I also read one of your previous posts that stated that if you remove the engine you would rebuild the trans also. My advice to you is take it one step at a time. If the trans functions properly and I believe you said it leave it alone. You don't want to know what RBT charges to rebuild a ZF.

Work on getting the pan off and try to find out what happened. You may find that the pump filled up with shavings from the main bearing being spun. Again one step at a time.

There are a lot of Pantera owners in Nor Cal.

What does Roger have to say about this issue?

Is he willing to step up and help correct the problem?

Where are all the Nor Cal folks that should be able to help? Come on guys, help Mike out!

I would be more than willing to help if I was closer.

Roger has been great with responding quickly to all my questions as I've gone along.

I want to keep communications on a good level with him. He did mention something about helping, in passing, kind of, and then he had to go.

I have worked on this car myself, and taken it as far as I can (to the point of injuring myself, overdoing it). Roger has helped with answering all my text and calls. I'm sure (just as I would) the last thing he wants to do is come up and help fix the car.
I haven't asked him directly. Again, I want to maintain good relations with Roger, I like him, this is just a super unfortunate situation.

I know what I would do myself, personally, if the situation were reversed, but that's me.

In fact, the super modified Subaru I sold to buy the Pantera, wouldn't start for the new owner on his trip home to Indiana. He was stuck in Reno. He left at 6pm. I got a call at 11:30, "Im at a gas station, and the car won't start, battery's dead". At 3:30 AM I got in my truck, drove 4 hours to Reno, got the car running for him and he happily drove off to Indiana and is happy with the car.

quote:

Roger has been great with responding quickly to all my questions as I've gone along.

I want to keep communications on a good level with him. He did mention something about helping, in passing, kind of, and then he had to go.

I have worked on this car myself, and taken it as far as I can (to the point of injuring myself, overdoing it). Roger has helped with answering all my text and calls. I'm sure (just as I would) the last thing he wants to do is come up and help fix the car.
I haven't asked him directly. Again, I want to maintain good relations with Roger, I like him, this is just a super unfortunate situation.

I know what I would do myself, personally, if the situation were reversed, but that's me.

In fact, the super modified Subaru I sold to buy the Pantera, wouldn't start for the new owner on his trip home to Indiana. He was stuck in Reno. He left at 6pm. I got a call at 11:30, "Im at a gas station, and the car won't start, battery's dead". At 3:30 AM I got in my truck, drove 4 hours to Reno, got the car running for him and he happily drove off to Indiana and is happy with the car.

Mike,

If it were me and I sold you the car, I would take it back and fix it for you as since I don't think it should have run only one hour. Yes, it is a performance car and all but if it was built right it should survive an hour of new ownership. But that just me, I understand the as-is sale and all but....

I really think there are some fine folks in Nor-Cal that could help out but if it turns out nobody will help you, I will commit to helping you. Me helping isn't the best solution as you would be without your car longer and it would require either I pickup the car or get it sent to me. Both is a pain but I don't think you should be doing anything else on the car until you are 100% healed from your surgery.

Lets see if anyone will step-up to help a fellow Pantera owner in need.

Just know there is a backup plan available so you will have a solution...

Take care, Scott

Hey Mike,

I sent an email to a few of the PCNC guys describing your dilemma to see if anyone can help out. Hopefully someone will respond. I'm unavailable because I'm moving my daughter to Seattle, but if the problem still persists next week, I may be able to make a drive up to Santa Rosa.

What happened to the mobile mechanic who was supposed to come?

Thanks everyone so very much!

My neighbor, Chuck, owns a Pantera as well, I've bugged him for years saying "I'm going to get one of these, I have XXX saved so far" and I know he's a very busy guy and didn't want to bother him, but as luck would have it, he came over and offered to help me with getting the pan off.

SO, tomorrow, my mission is to buy jackstands, fender covers, a long 1/4" extension and universal, and a tub to dump 10 quarts of oil.

Chuck said then he'd help me get the pan off.

I'd taken it as far as I could with what knowledge I have of the car, and then I popped my chest bone apart today under the car trying to loosen big bolts, so I was/am freaking out. The pump/pan will tell the story, and I can't wait to hopefully find something simple stuck in the pump, and have nothing beyond that wrong with the motor, and be back on the road.

Hopefully the pan will be out with Chuck's help in a day or 2. I have the new pump in, ready to pick up. If all goes well I'll be buttoning up my car, vacuming the carpet, reinstalling the firewwall, with my fire breathing engine running smoothly, and then I'll live happily ever after.

Chuck is DA MANG! I'll be indebted to him for his help.

I just need to settle down, I'm on the verge of a breakdown, so Chuck helping me get my oil pan off and we'll know what to do next in a day or 2.

Mike,
Please call or PM me and let me know when you and Chuck will be removing that pan, and I will also come over to help out as best as I can Wednesday and/or Thursday.
Ron
Let's get Snow White back on the road!...........

Thanks Ron,

Tomorrow I'm getting the needed parts and tools, so tomorrow or Thursday I hope Chuck will have time to help me out, probably in the afternoon. I'll let you know a soon as I know.

Look for a torque multiplier. You haven't seen anything until you have to redo the rear axle bearings. +300ft-lbs or as tight as you can get them with a 4 foot pipe on over you 36" 3/4"drive breaker bar!

They call me "Rice Crispies". I snap, crackle and pop first thing in the morning without even adding the milk!

I do admit that I never fractured my breast plate, not to my knowledge, but the cartilage at the bottom tip has taken a beating.

I crushed the cartridge in both knees picking up a piece of furniture. If I can get it to my shoulder, I can carry it. No one told my knees they would compress and not be able to handle it.

Right one has healed, left one still clicks.

If you have a 150 psi compressor, get an air driven impact wrench. Just make sure you are going in the right direction with it before you do anything AND do not hook the air hose with a quick disconnect to it with air pressure in the hose.

It it doesn't hook properly and the air pressure blows it off it will go through the wall. Well, a sheet rock wall. A concrete block wall it will just take a chunk out of and swing around and get you in the back of the head.

Don't invest in the battery power impact wrenches for the Pantera. Not enough power. Probably good for a Fiat, not a Detomaso?

My right hand sounds like cracking ice when I make a fist.

The doctor is just curious and asks, "how did you do that?"

Got a 2" dimple in my right knee. I was using a flooring machine and missed the actuator and hit my knee. Doesn't hurt at all though. Looks nasty.

I probably just killed the nerve there instantly?

When I throw a punch now, I have to throw a right lead, like I am left handed. That means I need to plant my left foot which is the bad knee side, so I have to make sure it is loose and won't fold under me before I oblige?

When you hit a heavy weight you have to make sure he goes down on the first punch otherwise retaliation will likely get you.

The only good thing about that is you don't remember anything when you wake up.

Just thought commiserating with your physical condition MIGHT help some? Maybe this has to do with Pantera ownership? It sounds like most of us are more than just a little "whacky"?

OK,

I spent the whole day preparing for the pan removal.

I went and bought a large floor jack, and jackstands.

I bought the long 1/4" extensions, and universal I'll need to get the pan nuts off.

I bought the new oil pump, spins as free as can be, unlike the one in the car that snaps pins for lunch.

I bought a new oil pan gasket, and silicone sealant.

I bought a new rear main seal, (2 piece) so I can replace the lower half while we're down there.

I bought a creeper, to make things easier while one is working on their back.

I drained the oil, bought a magnetic oil plug when I saw that the one being used was not magnetic (which might have avoided this whole mess).

Chuck says he'll be here around 5, and I have everything as ready as I can have it for him to work his magic. He's had the pan out of his car many times, so this should be par for the course for him (I hope).

Again, my hopes are that something inert or stupid is stuck in the pump, and we can simply install the new pump, reinstall the pan, and button the car up, and I'll be back on the road in a day or 2.

We will hopefully know in a couple hours. I'm hoping the pan comes off without too much difficulty.

Roger called this morning, and said he'd been feeling under the weather the last few days, but he offered to come up tomorrow and help remove the engine from the car. I was very glad to hear that offer from him.

I told him to take a day or 2 to feel better, and that Chuck and I will give removing the pan a shot. If we strike out, then I'd take him up on his offer.

Removing the entire engine/transaxle is a MUCH bigger undertaking, but if the pan won't come out, then it's the only option, and it'll mean a LOT more work.

I truly hope the pan comes off without issue. Roger couldn't remember if he'd studded the block, which would require the engine be raised an inch for the pan to come off, but the motor mount tower bolts are all off anyways (that's what I rebroke my sternum trying to loosen) so even if it's necessary to raise the engine, it should be possible.

I'm going to be there to help Chuck and do what I can, hopefully the next chapter in this story ends with everyone living happily ever after!

Wish us luck!

Mike I have the Aviad oil pan installed on studs, held in place with hex flange nuts.

I do not remember the necessity of raising the engine in order to remove the oil pan, provided that the cross-member is out of the way.

Sounds like everyone in Nor Cal is stepping up to give you a hand as I knew they would! Even Roger has offered to help so looks like you have all the help you need at this point. Time to relax and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck!

The car may have a removable aftermarket cross-member to allow for pan removal. If it doesn't, cut the original off and order the replacement ($90?). Its a lot easier than pulling the motor.
I'd be surprised if the original is still there.
Will

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
The car may have a removable aftermarket cross-member to allow for pan removal. If it doesn't, cut the original off and order the replacement ($90?). Its a lot easier than pulling the motor.
I'd be surprised if the original is still there.
Will

ZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Sawz-all. Weld on two end plates with slotted holes.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
OK,


I bought a new rear main seal, (2 piece) so I can replace the lower half while we're down there.

If the rear main is not leaking, leave it alone !!!

Chuck came and helped today, spent most of the time cutting the crossmember out.

I have a bunch of grinding and sanding to do so the bolt-in crossmember will fit.

Ron Southern came by to help as well.

We are close to dropping the pan, I hope to have the pan dropped tomorrow, and hopefully it's nothing serious.

We'll know tomorrow!

Thanks to everyone for the comments and the help, especially Chuck and Ron (Who was quite the race car driver in his time).

We made progress, tomorrow the pan will come off.

Thanks again to everyone. I am completely stuck, not a position I am used to at all. It's always ME lending help, or money, and now I find myself in this position. I am not comfortable needing help, but it is great to know that help IS there. I can't thank everyone enough.

We still have to find out what's in the pump, so the story isn't over yet!

Stay tuned.

The Battleground........

Chuck and Mike during the battle of the crossmember..........

It finally surrendered, and it's out!........

Out with the old, in (soon) with the new..........

Here Chuck (as Mike said "he is the mang") won't let Mike hit it with a hammer until tomorrow's battle of the pan/oil pump..........

Good Lord......that looks like one hell of a motor !!

quote:

Originally posted by PanTTera:
Here Chuck (as Mike said "he is the mang") won't let Mike hit it with a hammer until tomorrow's battle of the pan/oil pump..........

You've been warned...don't let me catch you now young man or else!


Everyone has jackets on in there. Good Lord it must be down into the 50's? How can you stand it?

quote:

Originally posted by PanTTera:
Out with the old, in (soon) with the new..........

would you say if one is doing a rebuild that a removable cross memeber is a MUST do?

(the other impression I am begining to devolp is maybe that Pantera ownership is something that is too late for me )

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanTTera:
Out with the old, in (soon) with the new..........

would you say if one is doing a rebuild that a removable cross memeber is a MUST do?

(the other impression I am begining to devolp is maybe that Pantera ownership is something that is too late for me )

It isn't a "required" modification, it is a convenience thing just for this kind of a situation. It makes dropping the pan much easier.

Too late? I already fixed the passenger seat so I can fit into it comfortably.

I just need to find someone to drive me around in it.

My sons are of no use for that UNLESS you like to be on an 8 or 9 hour ROLLER COASTER ride...all down hill!

Oh geese...there goes my stomach again...butterfly flashbacks!

Engine rebuild, or crossmember cutaway (as we are doing) isn't impossible.

It took an evening to chisel and sawzall and old crossmember out, still have grinding to do.

I'd say removing the engine/trans is similar to removing that of most cars (if that's the goal) maybe a little harder.

Chuck warned me Pantera ownership is a love/hate thing. I just hope I'm getting the "hate" part out of the way first, so there'll be lots of love after this!

quote:

would you say if one is doing a rebuild that a removable cross memeber is a MUST do?

It's not necessarily a "must do," but it is a very good idea. Otherwise you can't remove the pan with the engine in the car. And, it's a LOT easier to remove the cross member when the engine is out of the car than doing it upside down from the ground underneath the car.

It also allows you to install the lower chassis stiffening kit which mounts in the same location.

My acr already has a large frame brace that removed in a minute.

Chuck and Roc came back this afternoon.

Chuck FINALLY got the oil pan and oil pump off.

I found a chunk of magnetic crap in the pump, causing the pump to freeze up.


There's two dents in each lobe of the pump rotor, but I suspect those may have gotten there when I cranked the engine over by hand.

It looks like a chunk of magnetic steel got stuck in the pump on startup after changing the oil.

I don't think the pump even made one revolution.

The oil pan has a lot of residueand leftover oil due the baffles. Tomorrow I'll pour that through screen and see if there's a bunch of chunks in the oil.

The jury is still out. I've found magnetic chunks in the oil pump that locked it up. Small enough to make it through the screen, but it takes the smallest piece of crap to stop that pump.

I'm too exhausted to do anything else tonight.

Ill spend tomorrow checking out the pump and the oil in the pan.

That is bizarre.

When you say "magnetic" do you mean the particles themselves are magnetized ? not just attracted to a magnet like iron filings ?

I would find the oil bottle you filled the engine up with and cut it open , see if your new oil was contaminated in any way.

I cant imagine where "magnetic" particles could come from, there is nothing in the engine that is magnetic.

The only thing may be some thing like a magnetic sump plug if it had one, but the magnetism should hold that together.

Very strange.


.

The removal of the sump.........
(black bits are gasket material from the removal)

Was followed by the pump.........

To find the offending tiny magnetic lump.........

And the resulting pump rotor bumps..........
A detailed exam of the pump and the pan's remaining contents will provide a plan for the re-assembly, beginning with a new OEM pump.

Also maybe an optical illusion, but are you able to press that piece of metal through the screen? Doesn't look like it.

(I've never before seen the bracket that stabilizes the pick up, is that and the complexity/potential loose bolts really better than 3 spot welds?)

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Also maybe an optical illusion, but are you able to press that piece of metal through the screen? Doesn't look like it.

(I've never before seen the bracket that stabilizes the pick up, is that and the complexity/potential loose bolts really better than 3 spot welds?)

Hello Mikael; I was thinking the EXACT same thing in regards to the oil pick up stabilizer!

Also appears that the nuts are not nyloc.

I agree a "simple" tack weld would be a MUCH simpler solution & eliminating the potential for various components of the stabilizer to come loose...Mark

The support on the pick up is great just needs nyloc nut from the hardware store and safety wire on the 4 pump bolts. The tack weld is better than nothing. Pressed in pick ups can fall off at high RPM , you look threaded .
I am surprised that got through the pick up screen. Might want to look that over real well.
I would get a new heavy duty pump drive the old one has taken a few hits and it will be cheap compared to doing this again.
When you get past this Garth is right about the chassis brace kit. Best up grade I ever made, you can feel the added rigidity in the seat of your pants. Only question is , does the rear tub still fit? Mine was long gone when I got the car. All the vendors sell a version. Got mine from Precision , try to buy stuff from all the major shops.
If you need to arc weld on the car , please protect all the electronics!!!!

Having gone this far, I should think a thorough inspection of the engine's internals would be in order, to find the source of the metal bits. I'm thinking cam - dizzy gear set, or perhaps a shard from a broken dizzy drive pin. Good luck, and good to see you got the help you needed.

Determinations I can make so far:

The engine did NOT have a magnetic oil drain plug.

The piece that stopped the pump definitely can/could have made it through the pickup screen.

The piece that jammed the pump was probably stirred up by my adding the new oil.

The engine never even made one revolution when trying to start after the oil change. The pump jammed instantaniously.

The dents in the pump rotor I believe were from my slow cranking the motor over by hand. 2 dents in each rotor correlates with the 2 revolutions I cranked the motor by hand, looking for TDC #1.
If the motor had run with chunks going through the pump there would have been MUCH more damage.

SO, I can determine that my adding the new oil stirred that chunk of magnetic steel up and over one of the baffles in the pan. It was probably happily living in the pan for a long time in one of the "tubs" formed by the baffles in the pan.

There is still quite a bit of oil in those baffles. Oil that I need to inspect.

Good job Mike. Hope that solves it.

I'm puzzled by "magnetic". What is magnetic in an engine? Magnetic oil plug, but you don't have that. And anything magnetic would have thousand of small specs of metal on it, that's not visible in the pictures. Guess it doesn't matter if it's magnetic or not, it's definitely in the way!

I think he means it will stick to a magnet.

If it was really "magnetic", it would have stuck to just about everything in the block, and most likely wouldn't be stirred up when new oil was poured in. If any part of the screen or pickup was steel, that's where it would be.

If, in real life, that metal chunk looked like the machined piece of steel that it appears to be (in your zoomed in photo, on my iPhone display) - I myself would really want to know where it came from.

But it looks really small, it may be that i think i see tithings that aren't there... I don't want to be pessimistic.....

Rocky

What process do they use to harden camshafts these days ?

If they use induction hardening the cam may be magnetic.

The piece maybe from the cams distributor drive gear in that case.

See if the cam or parts of it is magnetic.

Put a steel feeler gauge in the hole where the distributor goes and see if it wants to stick to the gear.

.

I found tiny roller bearing pins (I assume from the Jesel Rockers) in the pump. Pin fits right through the screen.

OK, so that's settled. Engine needs to come out, and then I don't know what. Disassembled, inspected, and reassembled? Rebuilt?

I assume I have a failed/failing rocker that's spitting tiny roller bearing pins. Part of one jammed the pump, and I have one complete pin that fell out of the pump.

I haven't checked the oil in the pan yet. There's baffles that hold quite a bit of oil, and I suspect, more roller bearing pins.

I'm debating whether I should try rebuilding the engine myself. I'm broke. I overspent what I had buying what I thought was my dream car, and worth spending the extra money on. Now I'm looking at needing to rebuild the engine.

The roller pins and bits are so small, they could have made their way up into anywhere in the engine, so there's no way I'm going to try and repair the engine. It has to come apart, get inspected, and whatever is necessary needs to be done.

That piece could be from anywhere.

A magnet in the oil pan and one on the bottom of the oil filter would be a cheap solution.

Proportion is difficult to judge from the picture but it does resemble what the tip of the spurs on a gear sychro look like.

The distributor drive gear here is bronze, the roller camshafts are usually steel, but the timing gears are more often than not cast iron.

The tips of the timing gears are the only thing it resembles.

I would look at the distributor drive gears on the camshaft as well just to be safe.

It could be the tip of a tooth on the timing gear BUT you need to find out honestly if this engine had any broken parts in it that were replaced before you bought the car.

It COULD be a "crumb" from a shattered super hardened push rod. When they break, they shatter in pieces into the top of the cylinder head.

The spring rate needed for a mechanical roller camshaft almost guarantees there is that type of push rod in the engine.

When mine broke, it broke on both the rocker arm end and the lifter end. I was fortunate to get all of the pieces before something like this happened.

As I said, with an engine of this nature, it would be a very very good idea to epoxy screens over the drain back holes in the heads.

That will keep them from winding up in the oil pan quickly. You can't do anything about the push rod holes in the heads but that would drop into the lifter gallery so you need to screen those drain back holes too.

IF you are going to do that, get some help on it. You can do way more damage to the engine if one of those screens comes loose.

Epoxy is a ticklish thing long term in an engine.

Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02

Hello Mike; 1 step at a time!

If you think that the piece/s came from a rocker arm needle roller then.

Remove each jesel rocker arm, disassemble & inspect for a/any missing needle rollers.

If there are not any missing, then you can eliminate those parts as the source/s of the metal fragments.

I'm 100% POSITIVE that draining/adding your oil was NOT the causation of dislodging any metal particles, as HARD cornering/acceleration causes a multitude of MORE FORCE to dislodge a metal particle/s then the rather relatively benign action/force of draining/adding oil.

My approach would be this...Check the roller rockers for any lost needle rollers. All needle rollers intact, then proceed to inspect the cam shaft gear, that's intact, then thoroughly inspect the rest of the internals, using compressed air, blow out all passage ways & clean oil pan.

Install new oil pump & reassembly engine, WITH Magnetic drain plug and checking valve lash.

Spin the new oil pump with extension & drill to both test the operation of the oil pump & pre-prime engine.

Install distributor & with spark plugs removed, turn engine over.

Engine turns over fine with NO binding of distributor.

Reinstall spark plugs & start engine, run engine for 20 minutes at various rpms.

Remove magnetic drain plug & inspect for metal particles.

Drain oil through a fine mesh filter/panty hose ( ask Doug for a pair ).

Remove oil filter & cut open, looking for metal particles.

If no metal particles are found, be HAPPY!!!

If metal particles are found, I would try to identify them.

Then install a new filter, reuse the strained oil, refill the engine & run engine another 20 minutes.

Repeat inspection process.

This time if there are metal particles found, I would then disassemble the engine, NO particles...I would think that ALL passage ways are NOW clear of particles due to the "Flushing Filtering" procedure...& BE HAPPY!!!...Mark

Actually, before you do a lot more, you might want to cut open the old oil filter just to see if there is any very small metal particles there as well.

That's a good precaution on filter changes of rebuilt motors.

Once you cut the filter apart, squeeze the paper element in a vise to get most of the old out out. It's less messy to inspect that way.

Guys are you not reading what Mike writes? He found roller pins in the oil pump. That means potentially pins everywhere. Maybe from a failed earlier rocker, maybe from a current. That can't be flushed. Yuo can change pump and replace the rocker and hope to be lucky, but don't drive far from home, another pin will mess up that engine one day. The only safe way is to take it out, take it apart, have it professionally flushed, assemble and install. Won't be expensive,but a lot of work
Sorry Mike. Sleep on it

Mike,
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.

A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:

Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02

Mikael,

Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.

This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?

Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:

quote:

My tach works only part time

The engine's a full blown Nascar style race engine

I punched it full throttle for the first time giving a friend a ride merging onto the freeway, and Holy Shit! Scared the both of us!

The motor was insane while it ran.

I know after having my engine take a crap on me 3 tankfuls of gas into my new ownership

now I'm doing open heart surgery on my car after driving it maybe 100 miles.

See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.

Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.

I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.

Paul

Mike(s) -

My suggestion to inspect his old filter will add no cost, and might just add to his knowledge base about what is happening in his engine.

The particle in the picture was not a (whole) needle bearing.....

Rocky

Roger just mentioned he had a rocker failure a while back, and thought he'd gotten all the pieces. Well, he missed some for sure.

He is telling me to just clean the pan, and put the motor back to work.

How do these comments make you question anything I may have done? I didn't overrev the engine, tach or no tach, the engine did run great while it ran, it had insane power. I only punched it full throttle that one time getting on the freeway, and I assure you, I didn't even push the motor close to it's potential.
I was corrected and this engine is closer to a sprint car engine than Nascar. It has Ytaes heads and Jesel Rockers, that's about all I know.

The motor ran perfectly onto the lift, and died the moment I tried to restart it after changing the oil.

quote:

Originally posted by MarsRed:
Mike,
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.

A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:

Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02

Mikael,

Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.

This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?

Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:

quote:

My tach works only part time

The engine's a full blown Nascar style race engine

I punched it full throttle for the first time giving a friend a ride merging onto the freeway, and Holy Shit! Scared the both of us!

The motor was insane while it ran.

I know after having my engine take a crap on me 3 tankfuls of gas into my new ownership

now I'm doing open heart surgery on my car after driving it maybe 100 miles.

See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.

Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.

I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.

Paul

Paul you may be right about we should stay out of it. I just gave my $0.02 to a fellow forum'er. He'll make his mind up. But if I had just bought a Pantera, priced to be in working order, and found a rocker had spewed parts in the engine and the seller hadn't cleaned and not even put a magnetic plug in, I know what I would do, I'd expect the seller to fix if.

And since current rockers are not broken, Mike didn't cause this failure

That was approx $0.08

Mike, the metal part shown on the finger, could it be that it is in fact from the pump? Does it fit the cavity shown on the pump thingies? Maybe broken off trying to chew the rocker bearing pins?

Now the plot thickens...

Question 1. Had there been PRIOR to Mike's ownership Jesel roller rocker arm failure/s?

Question 2. Did the possibility of a Jesel rocker arm failure lead to the release of needle roller bearings into the engine?

Question 3. Was the Jesel rocker arm failure disclosed to Mike during car's inspection, if in fact one had occurred ?

Only speaking for myself PERSONALLY!

If I had a needle roller rocker arm failure & knew that the possibility of having needle roller bearing "floooooooating" around the internals of my engine was a 100% certainty.

I would HAVE disassembled the engine & undertaken the arduous task of ensuring that the engine was 100% metal particles/fragments free.

An engine's breakin period is where one should expect a cam lobe or lifter to go flat or a myriad of other internal parts to cause problems due to metal particles/fragments vs a "well seasoned engine" as is what we are discussing...Mark

All the pan stuff is stock Aviaid including the reversion baffle, pickup & brace. Tack-welding the stock screw-in pump pickup (once done to stock pickups) to the body has been know to heat-treat the pressure relief spring very close to the area in question. And it really screws with replacing a pump! I don't use nylocks submerged in hot oil- nylocks (as the name says) are plastic and soften. I'd safety-wire the Aviaid bolts. And finally, a STD pump will be just fine for the street and limited open track.

The solid roller cam also has needle bearings in each of its 16 lifters; pull each pair as I mentioned and inspect closely for damage to wheels & bearings. It's more common to lose needles from a solid-roller lifter than from a roller rocker. The drain-back passages in the Yates C-3 heads should be mechanically cleared as well. Those li'l needles (rocker or other) often get washed forward and tangle with the timing chain.

The short period of time ( 2 seconds) per tack it would take to weld the oil intake tube is NOT sufficient enough time to "Heat Treat" anything, let alone the pressure relief spring.

We are talking about a "tack weld", NOT a full circumference continuous bead.

As a source of reference, I was a Union High Rise Welder, certified to 1" in ALL positions!...Mark

Mike,

No offense intended towards you at all. For what it's worth, I believe that you probably have really babied it. I have no cause to doubt your word. No disrespect meant to you by quoting what you wrote earlier.

My comment was only that any coverage from Roger is between you and he. Period.

Now, back to your problem, and again, good luck with fixing it asap and as economically as possible.

Paul

I'll repeat what I said pages ago. Peace of mind while driving anywhere beyond the driveway can only come from biting the bullet, pulling the engine, thoroughly flushing, cleaning, inspecting, and reassembling. YOU can do it mostly yourself .. it's not brain surgery. This forum is a rich source of rebuilding help. Also my 2 cents. Good luck.

I completely agree.

However, I am stuck, I rebroke my chestplate overdoing things trying to work on the car myself.

My neighbor is nice enough to help me get the car back together. I'll inspect the rockers, and possibly the lifters if I can (special heads, I'll have to source out gaskets).

The rest of the oil in the pan looks OK, no chucks or shavings, so I'm hoping this is just the last bits of roller bearings from the previously failed rocker that I was not informed about before buying the car.

Hopefully, with the last bits gone, and new oil/clean pan/inspected rockers, that I hopefully will have the motor running again.

Then, if I decide to keep the car, I'll start saving to properly go through the engine.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
I'll repeat what I said pages ago. Peace of mind while driving anywhere beyond the driveway can only come from biting the bullet, pulling the engine, thoroughly flushing, cleaning, inspecting, and reassembling. YOU can do it mostly yourself .. it's not brain surgery. This forum is a rich source of rebuilding help. Also my 2 cents. Good luck.

Mike,
I think most on this forum have run into problems. Right now my cat just clicks when I turn the key, even with a new battery. I'll trouble shoot tomorrow. It's just part of owning one of the greatest cars ever produced. I know I can't feel your physical pain from your surgery, my dad had 2 triple bypasses and I remember what he went through. You have been a super man with your determination to get things sorted out and I applaud you. I would just kick back have a beer and tackle the issue another day.

When you say you went on the lift, was it a typical lift and you were level and the Pantera was lifted or did you drive up onto the lift/ramp on an angle that could have dislodged the piece into the pickup. My self I would:
Assume the rockers are OK because you said it ran perfectly and you were told one broke in the past.

Check the dizzy to make sure it spins freely.

Look at the cam gear for any chipped teeth.

Get a Moroso pump drive shaft.

Hot tank the pan to get everything out.

Put the pan on.

Stab the dizzy

Then drive it locally till you get confidence in it's dependability then have fun and relax.

Take care of your self first and snow white second, we want to read all your happy tales with snow white in the future.

Curt

Thanks very much.

Yeah, I've been full speed ahead until that pan came off. I needed to find out what was jamming that pump.

Turns out I find out about a previous rocker failure that was not disclosed when I bought the car.

It DOES look though, like those 2 or 3 bits are all that's in there.

If there's a way to flush the engine from above to try and wash anything bad down and away before we button the car back up, I'd be game for that.

As long as the other rockers check out OK, and I don't find any more bearing bits anywhere, the plan is (with Chuck's help) to button the car back up, and hope that does the trick.

The motor ran super sweet before this glitch. Luckily it never even made one revolution under power, so no damage (other than the dents I put in the old pump rotor by cranking the motor over by hand) was done, the engine never ran without oil pressure.

All the plugs are removed so when it's time, I'll be able to crank the motor over with no loads until I see oil pressure. It's been dry-cranked enough.

If I can get gaskets for the Yates heads, I'll pull the injection and top cover off so I can inspect the lifters as well.

All of this goes completely against what my common sense tells me, which is tear the engine down and rebuild it, but I just don't have the time, money, or tools to do that job presently.

Your common sense is spot on, wait till you can do it right. A completely lunched motor is a much more expensive proposition.

You will heal, get stronger and be able to do it. Money will come. It will come soon enough. As said above, mostly just your labor.

From someone who has lunched a motor.....

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:

All of this goes completely against what my common sense tells me, which is tear the engine down and rebuild it, but I just don't have the time, money, or tools to do that job presently.

Well, this is one of the issues with this kind of an engine on the street. The owner.

People just don't get what it means that they (race engines) are subject to unique, separate and individual issues?

This isn't a new story. In fact it's getting kind of old.



Back in the "olden days" if you happen to buy a "race car" from Shelby, you got the stock, as Ford built 289hp, AND YOU put in YOUR OWN race engine.

This eliminated the possibility of hard feelings between Shelby and the new owner over a broken and expensive race engine.

There isn't a shred of doubt on my part, and probably a lot of other people here, that for all intents and purposes this is a FULLY CLAPPED OUT RACE ENGINE, "with all the rights and privileges". It's going to act like one AND BREAK LIKE ONE. GET OVER IT BECAUSE IT WILL BREAK AGAIN! Period.

IT IS NOT GOING TO EXPERIENCE THE SAME LONGEVITY AS A "PRODUCTION ENGINE".

Having said that, NOW you do what every race team would do here, which Roger did, clean all the mess out, put in a new part, and get on with it. I like to think of that as "the first day of the rest of my life." It's just life with an engine like this. It IS a HARSH REALITY.

You put big ugly magnets on this thing to trap the shrapnel that gets loose and when the engine gets to the point where the peripheral damage gets too extensive, you build another one OR put in the spare that you have ready waiting in the wings simply because "you" understood all of this and expect that will happen at some point, sooner or later?

This engine has the same likeliness of surviving that you will "go through one "race" season" on one engine as an "iceberg in Hell" has a chance of surviving.



All that stuff about, "modern roller lifter camshafts being dependable and having the bugs worked out"...well where is it? Doesn't matter this is a rocker arm and not a lifter. LUCKY FOR YOU that's all it is and NOT a lifter!



Like you said, this is a "race engine", but you already knew this before you bought the car right?

Mike,Sorry to hear of your troubles. Let me know if I can take it off of your hands for you

Agree with PanteraDoug completely. Back in the "old" days when you had a car with a engine like this you worked on it all week to run it on weekends, part of life. Today though with computer controlled crate engines, same power and 1000% better reliability.
I've got a buddy who has a 36 foot Specter CAT with 2-575 SC's in the back. He's got one speed, wide open at 107 to 118 mph (depending on beer boxes and chicas) for years. Work done on both engines, change the oil and filters.

I see this as a blessing. Catching a problem that could lead to a destroyed engine before that happens.

I have pulled out of a pre-paid dyno session because of just this type of warning and it saved me big time.

This is a perfect opportunity to go thru and make sure everything is all right. Race bred engines don't last forever, but with frequent pull downs, parts that do wear out can be replaced before a catastrophe happens. Without changing everything, the easiest way to reduce potential problems is to go to slightly milder cam. The weak link in pushrod engines is the valvetrain.

Just my 2 cents.
.

I'm with Doug on this one. Clean everything out and run it again. It wouldn't be a bad idea to remove the intake manifold and the lifters to see if there is any damage. Once everything is inspected and clean I do not see why there would be more problems. IMO

Fragments have a way of hiding in nooks and crannies. If Mike wants to wash and run it, that is his choice, but I think it is easy to stand back and say run it when you don't have any skin in the game. Mike has already stated his budget is maxed. Grenade it far enough and most everything will need replacing.

Soft brass or aluminum is one thing, steel, graphite steel and iron fragments are another all together.

Sounds like he has made some good friends that can lend a hand and offer guidance. Soon as he heals up would be a great opportunity to do it right.

Again, just My 4 cents.
.

Of course, the right thing to do is fix everything properly.

The engine did run perfectly. Until I changed the oil, where it never even started (so no damage, at least then and there)

I'm cleaning out the pan, installing a thinner screen on the pickup, adding magnets that should catch any more bits.

Chuck has been nice enough to help me get the engine back together.

As it is, I hope it'll be fine cleaning things up, and running it. That's what Roger has told me to do.
I think the bits were living happily in the bottom of the case, and when I poured the new oil into the engine, it washed some bits over the little lip in the pan section, and the offending bit was sucked in instantly. The motor never even made one revolution, so no new damage.
So I figure now all the bits are gone, engine is OK, I have 2 BIG supermagnets now in the pan, and I installed a finer mesh screen on the pickup. The engine will run again soon.

I'll start saving then for a proper rebuild, when I can handle it financially.

I am just disgusted though. This is not what I intended to buy, but I'm here, so it's full speed ahead until it's running again.

Mike, One step at a time. If it is your decision to clean and put it back together fine go ahead. Don't warp your mind with thoughts of I need to same my money to rebuild the engine unit and unless you have to. Don't loose sight this is a FORD. If this engine becomes destroyed because you didn't get all the rollers out of there it can be replaced with another engine. Patience patience patience. This is supposed to be fun that's why we are called Hobbyists and this is our hobby. Look at it this way - at least you don't have to worry about getting this car running go that you have something to drive to work on Monday morning. LOL Its supposed to be fun. Don't stress out.

If the assumed to needle bearing pieces came from one or more of the current lifters, it will be obvious to you if you measure the rocker arm lash on each lifter and discover one that is excessive. If they are all in spec, it was probably from the previous lifter that was replaced. You can buy those big round flat magnets at Harbor Freight and stick them to the bottom of the oil pan to capture and discourage future ferrous pieces from finding their way into your oil pump.

Have I missed something? I've heard about "roller needles" and I've seen a pic of a fragment that isn't a roller needle. And I've heard about a prior rocker failure which MIGHT be the source of the debris. But I didn't hear any plan to check all existing sources of the roller needles. The magnets and screens may stop metallic fragments from getting in the pump but if the failure is a CURRENT component (rocker, lifter, cam bearing) then firing up and running will result in another damage event. And the fact that it ran for a while doesn't preclude an existing damaged component. You don't have to pull the engine to check other sources of debris. Good insurance policy.

The rockers I checked today. All look to be in perfect condition, so I am assuming the debris came from the previous rocker failure.

There doesn't seem to be any current failures existing (except for the jammed oil pump) so I hope the magnets, and cleaning things, and new oil pump along with finer mesh screen on the pickup should have the motor back running fine.

I was not given the engines history, it would have been nice to know about that. IMO that's the kind of history you mention when selling a top-dollar engine for top-dollar, but that's just me.

I was told the motor was bulletproof (of course I didn't expect the engine to last forever, but I did expect what I was being told I was buying. It turns out that was not the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
Have I missed something? I've heard about "roller needles" and I've seen a pic of a fragment that isn't a roller needle. And I've heard about a prior rocker failure which MIGHT be the source of the debris. But I didn't hear any plan to check all existing sources of the roller needles. The magnets and screens may stop metallic fragments from getting in the pump but if the failure is a CURRENT component (rocker, lifter, cam bearing) then firing up and running will result in another damage event. And the fact that it ran for a while doesn't preclude an existing damaged component. You don't have to pull the engine to check other sources of debris. Good insurance policy.

quote:

finer mesh screen on the pickup

Sorry Mike if I'm contributing to your concerns, but is this mesh a standard thing? The mesh if too fine may restrict oil entering so you may lose pressure at high rpm?

I don't know, just guessing, I wouldn't dare do that. Have others done that and lived happily with it?

I haven't asked whether the screen is too fine. Monday I plan to make some calls to Aviad and find out. The pickup box is 2"x3" so it's got a lot of area compared to the hole on the pickup tube.

What I CANNOT have happen, is have another chuck of something stop my engine dead cold the way it happened this time.

I'm installing supermagnets into the pan, so they should help pick up anything that might be left in the motor, and the screen mesh is small enough that the offending roller pins cannot make their way through and cause this issue again.

I also plan on dropping the oil weight from 20-50 to 10-40, which should help if the screen does restrict the oil pickup. My oil pressures were very high anyways, so I think the drop in oil weight will be tolerated).

I know also that hot oil is much thinner, and once hot I really don't think I'll have any flow issues with the finer screen, so a good warmup of the oil will be part of my startup procedure (it actually always has been. I know it takes a good 10 minutes for the oil to get hot in any engine).

I'm doing what I can with what I have, until I can deal with this and go through the engine and gearbox properly. I should have enough saved by next year to do those things.

It would have been really nice to have been told about the rocker failure before I bought the car. I was told the engine never had any issues, had low miles (like 5000-6000 miles) and was strong and should last with proper maintenance.

I was fully prepared to do normal maintenance, valve adjustments, oil changes, occasional repairs on parts that fail on a 40-plus year old car (like going through the entire wiring system when I got the car home, because basically nothing worked, no blinkers, no taillights, one headlight, no backup lights, tach only working occasionally) all those things were fun to fix, and what I expected.

Having the motor die after an oil change, and then to find out about a previous rocker failure that sent steel bits all through the engine, THAT, I should have been told about IMO.

I have things cleaned up, the bits are gone, magnets in place, smaller mesh screen in place, the car is ready to reinstall the new oil pump and pan and finish all the other things that need to be done to get the car back running (bolt-in crossmember, new water hoses, distributor pin fixed AGAIN and reinstalled, plugs installed after oil pressure is confirmed, plug wires put back, valve covers installed, air cleaners installed, chrome side covers installed, seats and firewall installed, and much more). It's a huge job. Not what I had planned on when I dropped my life savings on the car.

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:

quote:

finer mesh screen on the pickup

Sorry Mike if I'm contributing to your concerns, but is this mesh a standard thing? The mesh if too fine may restrict oil entering so you may lose pressure at high rpm?

I don't know, just guessing, I wouldn't dare do that. Have others done that and lived happily with it?

I would also suggest this. I can't locate the brand (B & b) I installed but this is similar. Much beefier than stock. BTW, I'm not real hot on the extra screen on the oil pickup. Just my opinion.


Pump drive shaft

Thanks,

I already have that piece you gave the link to.

The finer mesh screen is the only way I can guarantee no more bits make their way into the pump. The screen on the pickup is too coarse and will allow another piece of metal or roller pin through easily.

I'll inquire tomorrow, but I'd rather run thinner oil, and take longer to warm up the engine oil, than I would dealing with this mess again.

I'll inquire with Aviad in the morning.

Why worry on the additional screen mesh?

Think about the fine material of a filter the oil needs to pass :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:
Why worry on the additional screen mesh?

Think about the fine material of a filter the oil needs to pass :-)

Hello Kid; I was thinking in the same vein of thought then realized the the oil pump is "picking up oil", where as the oil passing through an oil filter is "Pressurized", thus the reason the mesh/filtering materials of an oil filter can be finer...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Thanks,

I already have that piece you gave the link to.

The finer mesh screen is the only way I can guarantee no more bits make their way into the pump. The screen on the pickup is too coarse and will allow another piece of metal or roller pin through easily.

I'll inquire tomorrow, but I'd rather run thinner oil, and take longer to warm up the engine oil, than I would dealing with this mess again.

I'll inquire with Aviad in the morning.

Go with what Aviad says to do. With the fine screen you are introducing an unknown into the equation. You will need to provide additional support at least in the pick up foot to resist the additional load of the greater resistance of the finer mesh.

How are you going to determine that load and how will you provide for that?

There is at least 50 years of racing experience with Aviad. I would yield to a greater authority on this one.

You could go to a finer mesh by just maintaining the filtering inlet flow inch figures of the stock filtering screen.

As an example....the stock screen has two hundred 1/8 inch holes.

A finer mesh screen has four hundred 1/16 inch holes.

Same filtering inlet flow, just achieved via a smaller orifices/holes...Mark

I under stand your intent, but I think your numbers are off
a 1/8" round orifice would have 0.012 square inches of area (pie are square), so 200 of those holes would be 2.26 square inches. where a 1/16 would only have 0.003 square so it would take 800 holes to provide the same opening.

there is some very good engineering info both anylitical and imperical on oil flow through screens (just not something I did regularly). as the size of the orifice decreases the viscosity of the fluid has an effect to whether the flow is laminair or becomes tubulent and is usually and adds to the resective nature of the screen.

as for as percent opening area, the 20 mesh (with small wire) is actually more percent open than the punched hole screen

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
You could go to a finer mesh by just maintaining the filtering inlet flow inch figures of the stock filtering screen.

As an example....the stock screen has two hundred 1/8 inch holes.

A finer mesh screen has four hundred 1/16 inch holes.

Same filtering inlet flow, just achieved via a smaller orifices/holes...Mark

quote:

as the size of the orifice decreases the viscosity of the fluid has an effect to whether the flow is laminair or becomes tubulent and is usually and adds to the resective nature of the screen.

Yea.

What he said.



Larry

I called Aviad, and asked. The gentleman i talked to said everything's a compromise. They use a screen size that keeps big chunks of stuff from going through.
He did say that the screen used needed to be small enough to not allow any more bearing pins through, so this is exactly where I am right now.

He said if there were to be any problem it would when things are cold, not hot.

So, I'm pretty sure my screen will work just fine, I'll make sure to warm the oil up before running the motor hard (something I've always done on every race/high performance car, 180 and it's GO-TIME)

With the pan cleaned, engine inspected, magnets installed, smaller screen, I think this motor will go back into service and run well, hopefully at least until I go through it next year.

Now, the next question, Where is the best place to put the magnets?

I have one quater sized magnet, and one about 2x a silver dollar.

I'm thinking the quarter sized one can go directly under the pickup (I may have to raise the pickup 1mm) and the big one, I'm thinking of placing it just outside the "kill box" because the flaps in the pan prevent the oil from whooshing back and forth, so next to the "kill box" will concentrate on oil that's on it's way into the pickup.

I can clean and parts and use JB Weld to fasten the magnets inside, to make sure they don't accidentally move, but I really doubt anything could move them.
The only thing I can think of is the pan actually hits something, jarring it enough to knock the magnets loose and cause them to stick somewhere else.

The big one can go under the windage tray, so it'll never have a chance to go anywhere that it could cause damage.

Plus, there's a large aftermarket fram brace that goes under the pan, so the pan itself can never be hit, say, if the car bottoms out.

Put the magnets outside of the pan where the pickup is not.

You can epoxy them on but if they are strong enough they will stay and will not move.

Probably the main effect of the epoxy would be to keep the magnet from migrating, i.e., keep it in the spot where you want it.

Mike, I don't know for sure, but I would keep magnets away from flaps and especially the pickup if that's iron which I assume. What if the magnet got sucked up and sat on the screen? And JB Weld, though having never used it, I wouldn't put any type of glue in my oil pan, if that comes loose and is sucked into the pump.

Maybe place magnet in a corner and weld an iron "belt" across it.

If anybody knows better, let us know, just my $0.02

Welding would be the best I agree.

I also thought about what if the magnet bounced up and got stuck to the pickup.

You are correct in that a tack weld would solve those issues.

I'll have to check and see if the big magnet affects the flap.

I too am leery about using glue in the pan, but I'm talking about a minute dab that would be under the magnet, which is already stuck to the pan with a LOT of force.

I would think the pan would need to be deformed to cause the magnets to pop loose if glued, and there's a huge frame brace that goes directly under the pan so there's no way the pan can be hit in such a manner.

I'll look into seeing if I can't get the magnets welded.

Do you think welding the magnets would affect their megnetic strength?

As much as I'd like to put that small magnet in the "kill box", after checking things out I think there's too great a chance it could pop up and stick to the pickup.

The larger magnet, where I had placed it in the pic, DID affect the flap, so I'm placing both magnets in the far corners of the pan.

If they happen to creep around, the worst that can happen is they run into one of the flap lips, and hold a flap closed.

They'd have to creep a long ways to do that. As strong as they stick to the pan, I don't see them moving.

So now I have a magnetic oil plug, and two supermagnets (hopefully properly placed) to keep any more steel bits away from the pickup.

I already just found another roller bearing pin by running the magnet around the edges of the inside of the pan, so these magnets are goin in and staying in.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Here's a pic of the new placements.

The big magnet will be captured by the windage tray when it goes on.

The small one fits into a slot, and I think that's a good spot for it.

Steel bits tend to go to corners and edges and travel along or get stuck, so the small magnet placed where it is should catch anything rolling around in there.

quote:

an iron "belt" across it.

Mike,

From your photo it looks like you could capture the small magnet with two cross straps held onto the center divider with pop rivets?

Or does that introduce the issue of the 'pop' remnant piece vibrating loose, and .......

I'm still nervous about a mechanically unsecured magnet.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
I under stand your intent, but I think your numbers are off
a 1/8" round orifice would have 0.012 square inches of area (pie are square), so 200 of those holes would be 2.26 square inches. where a 1/16 would only have 0.003 square so it would take 800 holes to provide the same opening.

there is some very good engineering info both anylitical and imperical on oil flow through screens (just not something I did regularly). as the size of the orifice decreases the viscosity of the fluid has an effect to whether the flow is laminair or becomes tubulent and is usually and adds to the resective nature of the screen.

as for as percent opening area, the 20 mesh (with small wire) is actually more percent open than the punched hole screen

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
You could go to a finer mesh by just maintaining the filtering inlet flow inch figures of the stock filtering screen.

As an example....the stock screen has two hundred 1/8 inch holes.

A finer mesh screen has four hundred 1/16 inch holes.

Same filtering inlet flow, just achieved via a smaller orifices/holes...Mark

AHHHH...the slippery slope of math, thus the reason my job application for NASA was rejected.

What's interesting to "myself" is that in theory I would "think" ( incorrectly) that twice as many 1/16th inch holes would be the same as half as many 1/8 inch holes.

I do appreciate your correction, I ENJOY learning!, even at my expense!...Mark

the question at work
"which would flow more water; 12 one inch pipes or one 12 inch pipe" you would be surprised at "engineers" that answer quickly and wrong

I am affraid to answer.

You're correct to be a little paranoid, Mike. One owner added a magnet to his ZF drain plug to fix a problem that hadn't happened. Heat & vibration popped the little magnet loose, which migrated into one of the synchros and locked up his transmission. No damage, but the ZF needed complete disassembly to find the problem.

Magnetic materials ARE heat-sensitive. Google "Curie Point" in magnetic materials sometime. Some recover while others don't. Also remember: super-magnets are metal/ceramic composites, not iron. Tack-welding or even silver-solder may- or may not- destroy your particular magnets. I'd use a good grade of heat-resistant glue; oil in the pan can approach 275 degrees F under full throttle loads. Or if you must, tack a light sheet steel strap to the pan and loosely peen it around the magnet to positively retain it. Impacts will chip a supermagnet, too....

Hi Mike,
I don't own a Pantera (hope to one day though!) I've been following your ordeal with great interest like a novel of intrigue. I must have looked at Roger Sharps ad on Craigslist 10 times before deciding I wasn't ready to make the leap into ownership.

I've been extremely impressed with the way this community has stepped up to help you out with advice and even turning wrenches with you!

In my opinion you were pretty unlucky in the first place that the pin jammed your oil pump rather than just living happily ever after at the bottom of the pan or passing through the pump and getting trapped in the filter.

I like the idea of putting the magnets on the outside of the pan if they are strong enough. That way you always know where they are! If you put them inside I would be wary of introducing anything that is not supposed to be in there like, rivots, JBweld, epoxy etc. it may break up in the hot oil and chunks float into the pump again.

If you do put them inside, it seems safer just to let the magnet stick itself to the bottom of the pan. If it somehow bounces it cannot get through the pickup screen anyway.

Anyway, I really do wish the best outcome for you and your awesome beast of a car!

Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
the question at work
"which would flow more water; 12 one inch pipes or one 12 inch pipe" you would be surprised at "engineers" that answer quickly and wrong

I believe based on your previous correction of my "Misunderstanding" of 200 1/8th inch holes are the equivalent of 400 1/16th inch holes, that the combined circumferences of twelve 1 inch pipes is GREATER the the circumference of one 12 inch pipe...UNLESS the parasitic/drag effect of twelve 1 inch pipe walls is greater than the parasitic/drag effect of one 12 inch pipe...DAMN!!!...with that "Cover my A$$" answer I could run for President!

I'll still answer that the twelve 1 inch pipes flow GREATER!...Final Answer Alex!...Mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImaYMoTi2g8

I saw this thread initally, then lost track, so just read back through it and here's my 2 cents.

There are a lot of us running an Aviad pan and pickup with the mesh provided, so I don't beleive there is anything fundamentally wrong with the design.

There is mention of roller needles in the oil pump; which side intake/pickup or output? I don't believe the act of pouring new oil in would have dislodged pieces on the bottom of the oil pan. The oil has to flow down through all the oil ways under gravity at ambient temp, just not going to have much impact in the oil pan IMO. You may have dislodged pieces stuck in oil gallies or the heads, a theory which would be supported if any of the pieces are on the outflow side of the pump.

The use of a magnet is only addressing the sympton, if you are losing metal pieces you have bigger woes coming, it's just a matter of time. If you can convince yourself it's from a prior problem then a thorough clean and flush of all the oil passageways is absolutely warranted before re-assembly IMO.

If you do use a magnet it doesn't need to be in the oil pan, you can place it on the outside and it will do just as good a job of collecting ferrous pieces in one place, without the worry it too becomes part of the problem.

The particles in oil raises the quetion of oil filters again, are you using a std by-passing filter or a non-bypassing, the latter providing greater insurance.

I would not recommend just changing to a thinner oil without some further investigations. If this is a NASCAR motor what tolerances was it built to and recommended oil grade? Too thin and you could do just as much damage if bearing clearances are set for a thicker oil, which race engines often are.

Good luck,
Julian

quote:

posted February 23, 2015 12:11 PM Hide Post
I am affraid to answer.

Yes! It finally happened! PanteraDoug stopped

Mike!, Mike!, Mike!....QUIT trying to reinvent the wheel!!!

NO NEED to JB weld or weld ANY magnet/s INSIDE the pan!

Just do as I & others have so correctly suggested & place as I suggested a sheet magnet on the OUTSIDE of the pan! or as others suggested various configurations of magnets, ALL on the OUTSIDE of the pan!

You can lead a horse to water, but CAN'T make him drink!, DON'T be that horse!!!...Mark

The pan is all cleaned and buttoned up.

I stuck the magnets on the outside of the pan, where they still have quite a bit of power to attract any magnetic particles.

The engine was running perfectly, quiet as a mouse actually for a solid lifter motor.

The valvetrain all checks out. It is all perfect.

I believe all the pieces found are from the previous rocker failure.

The design of the pan is such that debris can be captured in areas of the pan, and unless disturbed, can live down there without ever getting to the pickup.

There's a 1/4" lip at each of the 4 flaps that the offending piece had to jump to make it into the "kill box" and be sucked into the pump.

I believe Roger cleaned things up, the stuff went down and lived in one of the sections of the pan for who knows how long.

Only after I added the oil, did it either wash something down, or whooshed something over one of the flap lips into the pickup box.

There was no other real damage to the pump, and anything that made it through the pump went into the filter. The pump showed that very little "bad stuff" had gone through the pump, mainly just the one chunk that stopped it when I changed the oil.

The motor never even made a full revolution before the piece stopped the oil pump.

Given the situation, I've taken measures to make sure anything the size of the pins found in the pan either get caught by magnets, or cannot get through the screen. Even if more pieces get washed down, they shouldn't be able to cause this issue again.

I've cleaned the pan, I know the engine runs, no damage has happened on my watch except for the oil pump which I've replaced.

SO, the plan is to put the motor back together and run it.

Next year I'll have enough saved to go through the engine (and the gearbox while it's all out), and I think/hope things should be OK until then.

It's all I can do in this situation, short of parking the car for a year. If the motor blows holes through the sides then I'll build a new motor next year.

I have heard that if a trip starts out bad, it will be a great adventure!

I hope that holds true in this case!

I'll feel better, and I'm looking forward to getting her back running.

Must have been a relief to hear it fire up and run smoothly!

Hope your chest heals fast as well, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:

quote:

posted February 23, 2015 12:11 PM Hide Post
I am affraid to answer.

Yes! It finally happened! PanteraDoug stopped

She hasn't fired up yet. I still have a butt-load of more work to do to put the car all back together.

It will be sweet when it fires up again.

quote:

Originally posted by sjdennis:

Must have been a relief to hear it fire up and run smoothly!

Hope your chest heals fast as well, Mike

Sorry Mike, one more link to think about. I've been using these and have had no issues since my rebuild. I have not cut one apart to see what was trapped so I can't really say if they work. Good luck and I can't wait for you to hear it roar again, post a youtube vid of the start up.

Jomar No by-pass Oil Filter

The pump has a bypass on it as well.

Do the bypasses get used every time you cold-start the engine?

Or are they there for when you over-rev the engine with too cold of oil?

The pump is bypassing oil most of the time. That's why your hot oil pressure stabilizes at whatever it stays at (80 psi?) and doesn't fluctuate with RPM.

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
The pump is bypassing oil most of the time....

Does the relief dump/spray the oil back in the area near the suction screen? or is it ported farther back in the pan? or is it just recirced directly back in to inlet flow?

Nyneighbor said he had a few hours this afternoon to help me.

I am in severe pan from my injury (injuries always seem to hurt worse a couple days after the incident), BUT,,,,

I got the oil pump ready, converted the pickup over to the new pump, got the pan cleaned and ready for install.

Today if I can I'll get under and clean the engine block if there's any silicone left, and prep the block for the pan install.

Then it's on to buttoning the car up.

I have a few new rubber hoses to replace, and still have to fix the distributor pin as well.

It all should be ready tonight when Chuck comes to help me, so progress can be made.

Snow White is in her deep sleep, poisoned by the apple she ate. Now the Prince will come and give her that kiss that wakes her up, and the dwarfs and all the animals of the forest rejoice.

Hopefully the story ends like the movie, and Snow White and the Prince go off to live happily ever after.

Measures are in place to prevent the same thing from happening again, no guarantees something else may happen (as suggested, it's a race motor, expect race breakage) but hopefully this will be the end of any issues and the motor should run fine until I get to doing a proper rebuild next year.

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
Does the relief dump/spray the oil back in the area near the suction screen? or is it ported farther back in the pan? or is it just recirced directly back in to inlet flow?

I believe it just ports it back to the inteke of the gearrotor. Whereveer it squirts it back out at, it is very close to the pump suction, but I thought it was an internal bypass.

Rocky

All oil pumps have internal bypasses in a very short loop inside the pump body. A std 351-C gearotor pump can develop well over 150 psi with a blocked bypass piston or a sufficiently stiff relief spring. In a Pantera with an engine similar to yours that I was driving in competition, the engine builder had put in a high-pressure relief spring, and the car owner added 20W50-wt oil. The combination (plus 7000 rpms- I LOVE the sound of 180 headers!) blew the oil filter can right off the block! Dumping 10 qts of oil on track, I was not elected 'most popular driver' at that event...

Note- in Aviaid pans, the embossed ribs in the pan floor are open below the trap-door box. The errant needles likely washed under the box thru one of those at some point. Your magnetic sheet will freeze any more in place until you can pressure-wash the pan, block & heads at really high pressure. This is the kind of stuff that often happens with welded oil coolers- it's just very difficult to clean out metal debris from a blow-up (or in your case, simple breakage) from oil-soaked parts. Sonic cleaning sometimes helps.

I agree about the pan being difficult to clean, and holding onto parts stuck in the nooks and crannies. When I used high pressure water and soap to initially clean the pan, it knocked 3 or 4 more bearing pins out from hiding. I found a couple more after running a magnet around every crevice.

That is why the new finer pickup screen is going into place and staying there. There's just too much at risk. The drawback is I'll have to be careful when the engine is cold, and warm it up REAL good before driving.

Pulled the distributor to fix the sheared pin, and found the advance mechanism is not functioning, sticking badly.

This might explain the erratic idle the car had that I attributed to linkage being affected by heat (expansion and contraction). Idle would stick high, and take a throttle blip to get it to drop. Now though, after seeing how sticky the advance mechanism is (it doesn't spring back) I either need to send the diz off for service or just buy a new one, just another $450 is all.

If I have to buy a new distributor, I can replace with the same Unilite exact replacement, or I could get something else I suppose. I don't want to deal with rewiring, I just want my car back running. Tomorrow I'll call Mallory and see what their turnaround time is on service.

I'd love to go distributorless, or coil-on-plug, but that's another day.

Remove the springs FIRST to determine whether or not you have a fatigued spring/s, might just be in need of a cleaning/oiling/new springs...a few bucks for a set of springs, some oil & labour & you are working...Mark

Yeah, it's a little more sticky/stuck than that. I can advance the mechanism, and it stays advanced. Then, with force, it can be twisted back to no advance.

It's either shot, or I damaged it when trying to tap the distributor gear on and off.

I was very careful to not freely whack on the shaft when trying to install/uninstall the gear, but I fear my tapping with the hammer may have pushed the advance mechanism up or down to where it's now rubbing against to part of the diz below it.

It's going to need servicing or replacing unfortunately.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Remove the springs FIRST to determine whether or not you have a fatigued spring/s, might just be in need of a cleaning/oiling/new springs...a few bucks for a set of springs, some oil & labour & you are working...Mark

OK, we are close to installing the pan. I have a little more scraping of old RTV off the block, some rubber undercoating to spray, and the pan should be ready to go back on.

Tomorrow morning early I'm either arranging to have me distributor serviced, and overnighted back and forth, or I'm ordering a new distributor and just be done with that part.

Either way, I'm not sure if they drill the hole in the shaft or not. Even if I order a new one, I may overnight my old one so they can match the gear position on the shaft. Otherwise I'll have to find a machine shop to drill the holes in the shaft and gear, and make sure the adjustment is perfect.

In any case, Snow White is a few days away from running again.

Mike, remember that even more important than keeping your Pantera running is keeping yourself running. I also hate when a project is on hold, but make sure you don't re-hurt yourself. It can wait. It can...

Don't you have EFI with a CPU? Shouldn't the distributor be locked?
Will

I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,

I think it only controls fuel.

It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.

II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.

Not monstrous, but very big.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,

I think it only controls fuel.

It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.

II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.

Not monstrous, but very big.

The point of the Haltech is to control EVERYTHING. You can even control the on/off points of the radiator fans.

If the ignition is not involved in the CPU then it is a waste of potential.

The reason that the engine is so docile at idle is likely attributable to the Haltech.

Your description of the engines characteristics are indications that Hal is right there controlling everything.

Considering everything you have gone through with this engine, if it were me, I would install a new distributor. Maybe send the existing one out to MSD to have them look at it and rebuild it but I don't see a lot of point to that?

If the new one fails at some point, which I hope it DOES NOT, you will have an ignition history pattern to follow and an extrapolation would tend to indicate to go in a different direction.

What is the compression ration of this engine? Do you know it?

I would try to download and save a copy of what is currently programmed into the CPU.

When you pull up all of the overlapping graphs it will explain to a large extent what is going on with the engine management.

You might want to ask Roger what he did with that? I doubt he was running on the "standard" program.

There had to have been a laptop computer involved in this. Those finalized tuning points for this engine were saved somewhere?

Roger told me about some secret sauce program program his buddy had given him for the Haltech, and not to mess with it. He said that was why it ran so good.

I just ordered a new disributor, not taking any chances.

I hope I don't have to change the distributor drive gear again though, that was a PITA.

Of course I'll measure things, but I hope it's a drop-in affair.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,

I think it only controls fuel.

It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.

II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.

Not monstrous, but very big.

The point of the Haltech is to control EVERYTHING. You can even control the on/off points of the radiator fans.

If the ignition is not involved in the CPU then it is a waste of potential.

The reason that the engine is so docile at idle is likely attributable to the Haltech.

Your description of the engines characteristics are indications that Hal is right there controlling everything.

Considering everything you have gone through with this engine, if it were me, I would install a new distributor. Maybe send the existing one out to MSD to have them look at it and rebuild it but I don't see a lot of point to that?

If the new one fails at some point, which I hope it DOES NOT, you will have an ignition history pattern to follow and an extrapolation would tend to indicate to go in a different direction.

What is the compression ration of this engine? Do you know it?

I would try to download and save a copy of what is currently programmed into the CPU.

When you pull up all of the overlapping graphs it will explain to a large extent what is going on with the engine management.

You might want to ask Roger what he did with that? I doubt he was running on the "standard" program.

There had to have been a laptop computer involved in this. Those finalized tuning points for this engine were saved somewhere?

It's probably a copy of an extensive custom made program from another very similar spec engine.

I would say leave it alone, sure, but at some point in the future you are going to need a copy of the original in there now.

If it was me, I'd want a copy of it.

Even if you are looking at it and have some experience with these programs it will take a while to understand what you are looking at.

Having it as it is now is similar to having a restore point in your pc.

You have something to fall back on.

The program as I said Roger told me was a custom one his friend made for him, and that's why the engine ran so well.

He has told me he's now busy and won't be available as a resource, so I'm on my own at this point.

I don't know enough about the Haltech, but the Haltech and ignition systems looked to me to be separate, but it could be a simple wire that mkes that true or not. I haven't checked.

I just keep finding more and more stuff about this car that needs service/replacing, I'm trying to get it back into running condition. Then I can work on fine tuning (although it ran sweet) and I have a good tuner who knows Haltech, so when that time comes I can have him take a look at things.

To add to everything that's going on right now, (car, injury, finances, being disabled from surgery) I just was told this morning my Father has cancer, no details yet, but it's serious.

When it rains, it pours, right?

It will be really good to get the car back running so I can at least get that behind me. I'm on the verge of a breakdown.

If it is a Haltech, most systems give you the ability to connect a laptop and upload from the Haltech EMC the current tune. That current tune is likely what roger is calling the secret sauce.

I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.

This is simple to figure out.

1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")

For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.

Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.

To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!

Scott

It's actually ironic in a sense that the correct program is so critical to IR FI and the Webers don't care.

Chris I think it is the ignition curve that is in the engine now and an electronic distributor that are calming this beast.

The fuel curve is just going to keep the a/f ration optimized.

I remember the days of just two parameters for FI. Oxygen sensor and throttle position.

I personally would not presume that someone did not tweak the program for that cam and compression ratio on pump gas...although I would NOT argue vehemently against that comment that it is the current standard default.

It's true that the "default" settings on everything have become more sophisticated and you can always pick up last years ECU on ebay as soon as the new models are available.

I wouldn't be good enough to write the ignition curve anyway. I would be trying to fix points in the curve that are not fixable necessarily.

Your Haltech ECU program is (or was) a highly customized version from Kirby Schrader in TX, off his street/roadrace Pantera. Over 10 yrs, it may have been further modified by someone in CA. Call Kirby for details- he's still running the same setup.

The Haltech EMC have 2 software components.

The program that makes them work... IE: Like the OS of your computer.

And the programed TUNE. The TUNE is what most people customize.

Also, you can buy Haltech EMC's that control ignition, fuel delivery or both. It would not be unusual if you had a unit that only controls fuel delivery.

Again, not hard to figure out. So again, is the customization the program that runs in the Haltech or the TUNE that is customer programmable?

I agree with you on a number of points.

I was told many things about the car that just were not true, or important facts were omitted, important things.

I've kept my personal feelings out of this discussion because right now, I have a LOT of personal feelings that I'd like to express, but instead, I'm stuck with what I have, so I'm just going to move forward, fix the car, and next year I'll go through everything myself. Then nothing will be based on what I've been told, it will be fact, and true.

By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in. I plan to make everything like new, so I can enjoy the car with confidence, and if I ever decide to sell the car, I'll be able to give them a true, honest history of the condition of the engine and gearbox.

The gearbox shifts and feels great, although I did find bits stuck to the magnetic fill plug (neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only), but I suspect those aren't anything that affects the performance of the gearbox at this time. Small bits I think are to be expected in a gearbox, especially one that's been driven hard.

Next year, both engine and box will have been gone through, the rest of the car is sweeter than sweet, so I'll have what I originally wanted. It's just when I bought the car, it was insinuated that none of that needed to be done, and all was fine. "ticking time bomb" is a good description of what I bought.

I know, "race motor-expect race breakage", so that's where things sit right now.

The car will be back running very soon.

I've ordered a new distributor, and if the car runs as it did before, I plan to run and enjoy it.
I have a tuner who is familiar with Haltech and can make changes if necessary. I will definitely save the existing program.

I personally don't know enough about "tuning" with the laptop to understand, or make changes, so my plan is to leave things alone as long as the car runs well.

My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.

quote:

Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:
If it is a Haltech, most systems give you the ability to connect a laptop and upload from the Haltech EMC the current tune. That current tune is likely what roger is calling the secret sauce.

I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.

This is simple to figure out.

1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")

For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.

Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.

To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!

Scott

Im not sure if it has been said but if the ignition is in fact controlled by the Haltech (there is a good chance of this) it is IMPERATIVE that the ignition timing be reset properly which requires connecting a laptop to the Haltech and turning on some settings. The distributor will also have the vacuum advance locked out as the Haltech controls this. These are great systems and is what I was running on my car with the old motor.

The distributor is mechanical advance. No vacum advance.

Mike I think you said you had 80psi oil pressure at idle. That sounds too high and could cause problems with cold starts where a lot of engine wear occurs + oil pump drag. Thicker oil is not necessarily better, it depends on tolerances used during the engine build and its age.
For example.. http://www.onallcylinders.com/...-myths-theyre-false/

I agree, 80lbs cold idle pressure sounds pretty high to me.

That's what the car has though.

Here's the oil pressure rundown, when I had the car running at oil temps above 200.

Cold idle pressure 80lbs

Idle pressure 30lbs at 200 degrees

Pressure at 200-2500rpms 70-80lbs

Cold idle pressure 80lbs.

This why I thought maybe dropping a weight to 10-40 from 20-50 might be OK.


I've always gone by the 10 lbs per 1000 rpm rule, and my engine was definitely running higher than that.

If the Haltech controls the timing all advance will be locked out at the distributor including mechanical. The Haltech can not directly control the coil either. It will have to have some sort of ignitor (msd box or similar) so removing the MSD could cause failure in the ECU if you do not replace it with another ignitor.

quote:

By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in.

On the contrary, you've increased the car's value because everyone now knows the complete state of the engine with certainty and confidence, and things look good. A well documented sorted car is always worth more.

quote:

neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only

Swap the fill and drain plugs to put the magnetic plug in the bottom of the ZF case. If I recall correctly, they're the same thread size and interchangeable.

quote:

The car will be back running very soon.

It will, and then you'll drive the wheels off it! Most likely, there will be no need to pull anything apart next year for rebuild. Get it back on the road and DRIVE IT! If or when something breaks, pull it apart, but otherwise keep driving it!

quote:

My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.

Yup! I had hoped to drive the wheels off of my car for 5 years before getting into the engine. Almost made it to 5 years, but spun a rod bearing. There were other fixes along the way, but it's part of the adventure of owning and driving a 40 year old car. Snow White is like a smoking hot divorced 43 year old MILF - she come's with baggage... But she's worth it!

Very soon you'll be back in the saddle and the last couple weeks will just seem like a bad dream. Hang in there Mike.

quote:

I agree, 80lbs cold idle pressure sounds pretty high to me.

That's what the car has though.

Was that with the old high volume oil pump, or the new standard volume pump?

The old pump was a stock pump just like the one I am installing. I'm replacing with the exact same part.

Not high volume, Not high pressure. Bone stock pump

In MY EXPERIENCE 80 # cold is normal with oiling modifications to the block. As the oil warms up it will drop down to something like 25 to 30.

With an engine like this that's what you want. You have all sorts of valve train components that require oiling for any kind of longevity.

If that breaks the drive pin in the distributor then declare it a piece of junk and find a distributor that is made for this OR completely get out of any kind of a performance car and take up roller blading.

You guys sound like a bunch of old ladies and sound like you are affraid of your own shaddows?

Grow a pair?

My Subaru had 120-plus pounds cold idle pressure.

My engine, with 80 lbs cold idle pressure and 30+ at idle I was fine with. At crising speeds on freeway (2000-2500 rpm) the gauge showed 70-plus lbs, and I had no problems with those numbers at all.

My drive pin is extra beefy and doesn't twist, it shears pins.

Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.

Granted, I have maybe a couple hours of experience driving this engine before the pump failure.

To start with though, I'm going to put the 20-50 back in, just the way it was before, and I think my screen mesh mod to the pickup should work just fine.

The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:

Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.

The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.

First off the NEED for any engine NEEDING a 50 weight oil is BS. All any of them need is 30.

The final weight of any engine is going to be determined by the bearing clearances on the crankshaft.

50 weight would be for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 and use 40 weight?

EXACTLY WHERE that 20-50 number came from out of Ford engineering, no one seems to know but likely it was some sort of a "panic attack" that one of the Ford Engineers had when he saw a couple of bearing failures on the Phoenix test cars just before production started of the Boss 351.


Oil temps: exactly right. ANY "performance engine" should be at "operating temperatures" and that is THE OIL TEMPERATURE.

For oil, try 210 to 220 would be just about right. Everyone over cools the Hell out of their oil.

With the 10 quart Aviad pan alone it takes some doing to get this thing hot. With an oil cooler you had better have at least a 200 degree thermostat in there for the oil. 210 would be better.

I can't believe how many people are using the old "standard" Mocals that open at 180. Needless to say that is WAY too low.

They aren't even boiling out the moisture in the oil that is creating the sludge they see in their oil changes.

Many NASCAR cars and Pro Stock drag cars as well as others are using oil HEATERS.

In a car like yours AND mine, I would expect a couple of warm up laps on the track to get the car to operating temps.

In a cold winter climate like I am here in NY, I just park the car until May usually, sometimes April. Getting the engine to "operating temps" (oil temps) is hopeless under these winter conditions. I would need a heater to do that.



In searching to get a PCV valve system operating correctly with the individual runner manifold and Weber carbs, I purely by accident discovered that I pick up around 2 to 2.5 inches of vacuum at about 200 degrees oil temps.

I did not expect to see that and am wonder if I knew that but had just forgotten it?



The 427 Fords ran 100 psi for "performance" back in the day. 10 psi in those at idle means you need a rebuild.

The 289-302 Fords run the same roll pin and about 85 psi cold. I am sure people have broken those pins but I've never heard of one in that engine series personally, and the ONLY ones I have heard of in the Cleveland are either a Ford distributor that is not original and has been "rebuilt" by someone after Ford OR AFTERMARKET.


The other thing people are seeing with oil pressure variations is that high performance engines kill the actual viscosity of the oil.

I have only experience with one BB Chevy Pro Stock car but it would leave the line with 100 psi and come back into the pits with 10 psi. Reason. It just beat the heck out of the oil in only 1/4 mile.


The adage about 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm is a good guide. I personally though get VERY nervous at anything under 15psi. There are just so many things that could have gone wrong in the engine that created that.


Hallucinations? Maybe? I try to hallucinate about the Playmate of the Year though. It's more of a rewarding "trip".

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...

please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...

please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?

Inches. They are so small that you need to measure them with Plastic-gauge.

You place the plastic-gauge under the bearing, torque the cap, then take it off and compare the squashed material to a paper chart that the stuff comes wrapped in.

If you read some old (1970 +/-) magazine articles about building race engines, you might see recommendations of .035" clearances on the main bearings.

There you need a thick single grade oil. Maybe a 50 weight?

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...

please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?

Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy" ...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...

please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?

Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy" ...Mark

Not so, on "loose and sloppy" but when you said MM I immediately thought of Marilyn. I'll make an exception every time there and hope that she will be the ghost of Christmas Future that visits me?

Oh a great fantasy there.

Tall, tight and leggy with that great high rpm "whine" is my preference.

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...

please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?

If it's referencing journal to bearing clearances in inches there's another (forgotten?) zero needed to the right of the decimal. K

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...

please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?

Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy" ...Mark

Not so, on "loose and sloppy" but when you said MM I immediately thought of Marilyn. I'll make an exception every time there and hope that she will be the ghost of Christmas Future that visits me?

Oh a great fantasy there.

Tall, tight and leggy with that great high rpm "whine" is my preference.

Because your "My Pal"...This is just for you Doug!...make sure to have the Jergens & Tissues READY!...Photo number "2" gets the "lead in my pencil"!!!...NO phone calls for the next hour, as I'll be "busy"!...Mark

http://www.ranker.com/list/hot...mat=SLIDESHOW&page=2

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.

Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...

please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?

If it's referencing journal to bearing clearances in inches there's another (forgotten?) zero needed to the right of the decimal. K

OOPS! MM makes it difficult to concentrate on.

I have assembled bearings that required 0.035" vertical clearance and even greater, but the journel diameters were 24" (and greater). they do make plastic gauge that size, but NAPA thinks you are crazy and don't carry it. for 0.035" clearance checks, I would prefer 6 amp fuse wire or three twist of 1 amp

funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
I have assembled bearings that required 0.035" vertical clearance and even greater, but the journel diameters were 24" (and greater). they do make plastic gauge that size, but NAPA thinks you are crazy and don't carry it. for 0.035" clearance checks, I would prefer 6 amp fuse wire or three twist of 1 amp

funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.

Yes, Kerry is correct, the decimal point is off by 10 in my post. .0035" is a lot of clearance on a main bearing but used for a time in competition engines.

I'd have to look at my assembly notes but the last two engines I did were .0015" (347) and .0020 (351c).

That is the thickness of the film of oil that the crankshaft is running on. Viscosity would be determined from those clearances for a specific film strength (not MM film strength Mark )

I do not use plastigauge. I measure the inside diameter with a bore indicator and the journal with a micrometer then subtract one from the other. This is done for each journal in at least two places. The seam of the bearings are always a little bigger. Measure twice cut once so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
I do not use plastigauge. I measure the inside diameter with a bore indicator and the journal with a micrometer then subtract one from the other. This is done for each journal in at least two places. The seam of the bearings are always a little bigger. Measure twice cut once so to speak.

Good God, you and i must be the last of the Mohicans.

I have a machinist friend that works in the aerospace industry he taught me how. When I first told him that I was going to use plastigauge he laughed and then went on to explain that plastigauge is not as accurate.

Ah that explains it, i'm a machinist also...

I'm hoping to not sue either of those tools on my engine until next year when I go through everything.

Until then, I'm hoping it all holds together and runs fine until then.

I've taken every precaution I can think of.

Mike, Please don't take offense but I simply must say this.

I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.

If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....

right !
try it and maybe rebuild it

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
Mike, Please don't take offense but I simply must say this.

I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.

If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....

Agree with ItalFord 100%!, especially in regards to the ZF!.

There are many parts in a V8, you Mike had the misfortune of a previous mishap leaving metal particles floating in the engine.

NOW you have corrected that problem!, your engine & transmission should operate to the same level of performance & satisfaction you ENJOYED, prior to the oil pump seizure.

Follow the time tested adage..."Leave Well Enough Alone"!....DAMN!...I feel like Dr.Phil!...I need a shower & some M.M. pictures!...Mark

You gentlemen are correct.

It's just for me, in my head, I bought what was supposed to be something that it wasn't.

I DO plan on enjoying the car and driving it once it's back together.

It's just that I now know these things about the car, and I'll feel better when I've gone through the engine and box, and have a "fresh start" if you want to call it that.

Believe me, when this engine starts,I'm going to go out and put it through it's paces, make sure it's still a solid runner, and then I'll drive and enjoy the car.

I bought a jewel of a car, and a jewel of an engine. I need to know that these both are as they should be. Since I was sold an engine that has had previous failures, with lots of steel bits runing through it, I think the right thing to do is to eventually go through the engine and confirm all is well.

The gearbox works fine, so I'll probably leave it alone unless I have an issue with it.

But when it comes time to go through everything, I'll be going through the box as well, so it's all new and fresh.

Then, if I decide to ever sell the car, I won't have to disclose anything, I'll be able to look the buyer straight in the face, and say "it's a low miles engine, never had any problems, should last a long time, runs perfect", just as I was told when I bought the car.

Wait until you get your bill for rebuilding the ZF LOL that will change your mind in a hurry. BTW the engine is no cheap fix either. I believe I have $8,000 in the engine and I did all the work besides the actual machine work.

Sounds like you are a bit obsessed with it right now. Lets some time pass and maybe some of the OCD will wear off.

Good Luck Dr. Phil LMAO

There isn't really anything to disclose. It was a minor mishap and if I was buying the car and you told me what happened, I'd be satisfied with that.

It isn't just you at all. There seems to be this prevailing societal mentality that nothing is any good unless it is virginal?

I don't know where that comes from? Mid-evil times? Certainly not from me.

Warm up Snow White really well, hold on tight, take her for a ride. Drive it like you hate it and never look back. What happened is just water under the bridge, a few drops of oil on your face and just another chapter in your book. So what?


Your grand kids will love it. They probably would never have realized you were such a colorful character AND THEY have your genes too?

You guys are right.

Once I hear her run again, get some miles on her, slap her ass a few times, I'll feel better about it all.

Thhis is still a big F78ked up ordeal that I didn't sign up for when I bought the car though.

IMO I have good reason to be upset.

She's close to being back together, there's a few things I still can't do due to my injury. I pretty much can't do much under the car on my back, it torques my chest too much.

All that's left is plug install, diz install, starter install, crossmember install, air cleaners (which need work, they were short for some reason and covering half of the 4 corner stacks) install, new water hose sections installed, interior install, and a few other things.

We got the pan on last night, so the main work is done.

I'm hoping my neighbor can help a little more with a few of the last things I can't do myself.

Tomorrow I'm tackling the water hoses, everything on this car is a pain in the a$$ to work on.