Why worry on the additional screen mesh?
Think about the fine material of a filter the oil needs to pass :-)
Hello Kid; I was thinking in the same vein of thought then realized the the oil pump is "picking up oil", where as the oil passing through an oil filter is "Pressurized", thus the reason the mesh/filtering materials of an oil filter can be finer...Markquote:Originally posted by Kid:
Why worry on the additional screen mesh?
Think about the fine material of a filter the oil needs to pass :-)
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Thanks,
I already have that piece you gave the link to.
The finer mesh screen is the only way I can guarantee no more bits make their way into the pump. The screen on the pickup is too coarse and will allow another piece of metal or roller pin through easily.
I'll inquire tomorrow, but I'd rather run thinner oil, and take longer to warm up the engine oil, than I would dealing with this mess again.
I'll inquire with Aviad in the morning.
Go with what Aviad says to do. With the fine screen you are introducing an unknown into the equation. You will need to provide additional support at least in the pick up foot to resist the additional load of the greater resistance of the finer mesh.
How are you going to determine that load and how will you provide for that?
There is at least 50 years of racing experience with Aviad. I would yield to a greater authority on this one.
You could go to a finer mesh by just maintaining the filtering inlet flow inch figures of the stock filtering screen.
As an example....the stock screen has two hundred 1/8 inch holes.
A finer mesh screen has four hundred 1/16 inch holes.
Same filtering inlet flow, just achieved via a smaller orifices/holes...Mark
As an example....the stock screen has two hundred 1/8 inch holes.
A finer mesh screen has four hundred 1/16 inch holes.
Same filtering inlet flow, just achieved via a smaller orifices/holes...Mark
I under stand your intent, but I think your numbers are off
a 1/8" round orifice would have 0.012 square inches of area (pie are square), so 200 of those holes would be 2.26 square inches. where a 1/16 would only have 0.003 square so it would take 800 holes to provide the same opening.
there is some very good engineering info both anylitical and imperical on oil flow through screens (just not something I did regularly). as the size of the orifice decreases the viscosity of the fluid has an effect to whether the flow is laminair or becomes tubulent and is usually and adds to the resective nature of the screen.
as for as percent opening area, the 20 mesh (with small wire) is actually more percent open than the punched hole screen
a 1/8" round orifice would have 0.012 square inches of area (pie are square), so 200 of those holes would be 2.26 square inches. where a 1/16 would only have 0.003 square so it would take 800 holes to provide the same opening.
there is some very good engineering info both anylitical and imperical on oil flow through screens (just not something I did regularly). as the size of the orifice decreases the viscosity of the fluid has an effect to whether the flow is laminair or becomes tubulent and is usually and adds to the resective nature of the screen.
as for as percent opening area, the 20 mesh (with small wire) is actually more percent open than the punched hole screen
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
You could go to a finer mesh by just maintaining the filtering inlet flow inch figures of the stock filtering screen.
As an example....the stock screen has two hundred 1/8 inch holes.
A finer mesh screen has four hundred 1/16 inch holes.
Same filtering inlet flow, just achieved via a smaller orifices/holes...Mark
quote:as the size of the orifice decreases the viscosity of the fluid has an effect to whether the flow is laminair or becomes tubulent and is usually and adds to the resective nature of the screen.
Yea.
What he said.
Larry
I called Aviad, and asked. The gentleman i talked to said everything's a compromise. They use a screen size that keeps big chunks of stuff from going through.
He did say that the screen used needed to be small enough to not allow any more bearing pins through, so this is exactly where I am right now.
He said if there were to be any problem it would when things are cold, not hot.
So, I'm pretty sure my screen will work just fine, I'll make sure to warm the oil up before running the motor hard (something I've always done on every race/high performance car, 180 and it's GO-TIME)
With the pan cleaned, engine inspected, magnets installed, smaller screen, I think this motor will go back into service and run well, hopefully at least until I go through it next year.
Now, the next question, Where is the best place to put the magnets?
I have one quater sized magnet, and one about 2x a silver dollar.
I'm thinking the quarter sized one can go directly under the pickup (I may have to raise the pickup 1mm) and the big one, I'm thinking of placing it just outside the "kill box" because the flaps in the pan prevent the oil from whooshing back and forth, so next to the "kill box" will concentrate on oil that's on it's way into the pickup.
I can clean and parts and use JB Weld to fasten the magnets inside, to make sure they don't accidentally move, but I really doubt anything could move them.
The only thing I can think of is the pan actually hits something, jarring it enough to knock the magnets loose and cause them to stick somewhere else.
The big one can go under the windage tray, so it'll never have a chance to go anywhere that it could cause damage.
Plus, there's a large aftermarket fram brace that goes under the pan, so the pan itself can never be hit, say, if the car bottoms out.
He did say that the screen used needed to be small enough to not allow any more bearing pins through, so this is exactly where I am right now.
He said if there were to be any problem it would when things are cold, not hot.
So, I'm pretty sure my screen will work just fine, I'll make sure to warm the oil up before running the motor hard (something I've always done on every race/high performance car, 180 and it's GO-TIME)
With the pan cleaned, engine inspected, magnets installed, smaller screen, I think this motor will go back into service and run well, hopefully at least until I go through it next year.
Now, the next question, Where is the best place to put the magnets?
I have one quater sized magnet, and one about 2x a silver dollar.
I'm thinking the quarter sized one can go directly under the pickup (I may have to raise the pickup 1mm) and the big one, I'm thinking of placing it just outside the "kill box" because the flaps in the pan prevent the oil from whooshing back and forth, so next to the "kill box" will concentrate on oil that's on it's way into the pickup.
I can clean and parts and use JB Weld to fasten the magnets inside, to make sure they don't accidentally move, but I really doubt anything could move them.
The only thing I can think of is the pan actually hits something, jarring it enough to knock the magnets loose and cause them to stick somewhere else.
The big one can go under the windage tray, so it'll never have a chance to go anywhere that it could cause damage.
Plus, there's a large aftermarket fram brace that goes under the pan, so the pan itself can never be hit, say, if the car bottoms out.
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Put the magnets outside of the pan where the pickup is not.
You can epoxy them on but if they are strong enough they will stay and will not move.
Probably the main effect of the epoxy would be to keep the magnet from migrating, i.e., keep it in the spot where you want it.
You can epoxy them on but if they are strong enough they will stay and will not move.
Probably the main effect of the epoxy would be to keep the magnet from migrating, i.e., keep it in the spot where you want it.
Mike, I don't know for sure, but I would keep magnets away from flaps and especially the pickup if that's iron which I assume. What if the magnet got sucked up and sat on the screen? And JB Weld, though having never used it, I wouldn't put any type of glue in my oil pan, if that comes loose and is sucked into the pump.
Maybe place magnet in a corner and weld an iron "belt" across it.
If anybody knows better, let us know, just my $0.02
Maybe place magnet in a corner and weld an iron "belt" across it.
If anybody knows better, let us know, just my $0.02
Welding would be the best I agree.
I also thought about what if the magnet bounced up and got stuck to the pickup.
You are correct in that a tack weld would solve those issues.
I'll have to check and see if the big magnet affects the flap.
I too am leery about using glue in the pan, but I'm talking about a minute dab that would be under the magnet, which is already stuck to the pan with a LOT of force.
I would think the pan would need to be deformed to cause the magnets to pop loose if glued, and there's a huge frame brace that goes directly under the pan so there's no way the pan can be hit in such a manner.
I'll look into seeing if I can't get the magnets welded.
Do you think welding the magnets would affect their megnetic strength?
I also thought about what if the magnet bounced up and got stuck to the pickup.
You are correct in that a tack weld would solve those issues.
I'll have to check and see if the big magnet affects the flap.
I too am leery about using glue in the pan, but I'm talking about a minute dab that would be under the magnet, which is already stuck to the pan with a LOT of force.
I would think the pan would need to be deformed to cause the magnets to pop loose if glued, and there's a huge frame brace that goes directly under the pan so there's no way the pan can be hit in such a manner.
I'll look into seeing if I can't get the magnets welded.
Do you think welding the magnets would affect their megnetic strength?
As much as I'd like to put that small magnet in the "kill box", after checking things out I think there's too great a chance it could pop up and stick to the pickup.
The larger magnet, where I had placed it in the pic, DID affect the flap, so I'm placing both magnets in the far corners of the pan.
If they happen to creep around, the worst that can happen is they run into one of the flap lips, and hold a flap closed.
They'd have to creep a long ways to do that. As strong as they stick to the pan, I don't see them moving.
So now I have a magnetic oil plug, and two supermagnets (hopefully properly placed) to keep any more steel bits away from the pickup.
I already just found another roller bearing pin by running the magnet around the edges of the inside of the pan, so these magnets are goin in and staying in.
Once bitten, twice shy.
Here's a pic of the new placements.
The big magnet will be captured by the windage tray when it goes on.
The small one fits into a slot, and I think that's a good spot for it.
Steel bits tend to go to corners and edges and travel along or get stuck, so the small magnet placed where it is should catch anything rolling around in there.
The larger magnet, where I had placed it in the pic, DID affect the flap, so I'm placing both magnets in the far corners of the pan.
If they happen to creep around, the worst that can happen is they run into one of the flap lips, and hold a flap closed.
They'd have to creep a long ways to do that. As strong as they stick to the pan, I don't see them moving.
So now I have a magnetic oil plug, and two supermagnets (hopefully properly placed) to keep any more steel bits away from the pickup.
I already just found another roller bearing pin by running the magnet around the edges of the inside of the pan, so these magnets are goin in and staying in.
Once bitten, twice shy.
Here's a pic of the new placements.
The big magnet will be captured by the windage tray when it goes on.
The small one fits into a slot, and I think that's a good spot for it.
Steel bits tend to go to corners and edges and travel along or get stuck, so the small magnet placed where it is should catch anything rolling around in there.
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quote:an iron "belt" across it.
Mike,
From your photo it looks like you could capture the small magnet with two cross straps held onto the center divider with pop rivets?
Or does that introduce the issue of the 'pop' remnant piece vibrating loose, and .......
I'm still nervous about a mechanically unsecured magnet.
Larry
AHHHH...the slippery slope of math, thus the reason my job application for NASA was rejected.quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
I under stand your intent, but I think your numbers are off
a 1/8" round orifice would have 0.012 square inches of area (pie are square), so 200 of those holes would be 2.26 square inches. where a 1/16 would only have 0.003 square so it would take 800 holes to provide the same opening.
there is some very good engineering info both anylitical and imperical on oil flow through screens (just not something I did regularly). as the size of the orifice decreases the viscosity of the fluid has an effect to whether the flow is laminair or becomes tubulent and is usually and adds to the resective nature of the screen.
as for as percent opening area, the 20 mesh (with small wire) is actually more percent open than the punched hole screenquote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
You could go to a finer mesh by just maintaining the filtering inlet flow inch figures of the stock filtering screen.
As an example....the stock screen has two hundred 1/8 inch holes.
A finer mesh screen has four hundred 1/16 inch holes.
Same filtering inlet flow, just achieved via a smaller orifices/holes...Mark
What's interesting to "myself" is that in theory I would "think" ( incorrectly) that twice as many 1/16th inch holes would be the same as half as many 1/8 inch holes.
I do appreciate your correction, I ENJOY learning!, even at my expense!...Mark
the question at work
"which would flow more water; 12 one inch pipes or one 12 inch pipe" you would be surprised at "engineers" that answer quickly and wrong
"which would flow more water; 12 one inch pipes or one 12 inch pipe" you would be surprised at "engineers" that answer quickly and wrong
I am affraid to answer. 
You're correct to be a little paranoid, Mike. One owner added a magnet to his ZF drain plug to fix a problem that hadn't happened. Heat & vibration popped the little magnet loose, which migrated into one of the synchros and locked up his transmission. No damage, but the ZF needed complete disassembly to find the problem.
Magnetic materials ARE heat-sensitive. Google "Curie Point" in magnetic materials sometime. Some recover while others don't. Also remember: super-magnets are metal/ceramic composites, not iron. Tack-welding or even silver-solder may- or may not- destroy your particular magnets. I'd use a good grade of heat-resistant glue; oil in the pan can approach 275 degrees F under full throttle loads. Or if you must, tack a light sheet steel strap to the pan and loosely peen it around the magnet to positively retain it. Impacts will chip a supermagnet, too....
Magnetic materials ARE heat-sensitive. Google "Curie Point" in magnetic materials sometime. Some recover while others don't. Also remember: super-magnets are metal/ceramic composites, not iron. Tack-welding or even silver-solder may- or may not- destroy your particular magnets. I'd use a good grade of heat-resistant glue; oil in the pan can approach 275 degrees F under full throttle loads. Or if you must, tack a light sheet steel strap to the pan and loosely peen it around the magnet to positively retain it. Impacts will chip a supermagnet, too....
Hi Mike,
I don't own a Pantera (hope to one day though!) I've been following your ordeal with great interest like a novel of intrigue. I must have looked at Roger Sharps ad on Craigslist 10 times before deciding I wasn't ready to make the leap into ownership.
I've been extremely impressed with the way this community has stepped up to help you out with advice and even turning wrenches with you!
In my opinion you were pretty unlucky in the first place that the pin jammed your oil pump rather than just living happily ever after at the bottom of the pan or passing through the pump and getting trapped in the filter.
I like the idea of putting the magnets on the outside of the pan if they are strong enough. That way you always know where they are! If you put them inside I would be wary of introducing anything that is not supposed to be in there like, rivots, JBweld, epoxy etc. it may break up in the hot oil and chunks float into the pump again.
If you do put them inside, it seems safer just to let the magnet stick itself to the bottom of the pan. If it somehow bounces it cannot get through the pickup screen anyway.
Anyway, I really do wish the best outcome for you and your awesome beast of a car!
Dennis
I don't own a Pantera (hope to one day though!) I've been following your ordeal with great interest like a novel of intrigue. I must have looked at Roger Sharps ad on Craigslist 10 times before deciding I wasn't ready to make the leap into ownership.
I've been extremely impressed with the way this community has stepped up to help you out with advice and even turning wrenches with you!
In my opinion you were pretty unlucky in the first place that the pin jammed your oil pump rather than just living happily ever after at the bottom of the pan or passing through the pump and getting trapped in the filter.
I like the idea of putting the magnets on the outside of the pan if they are strong enough. That way you always know where they are! If you put them inside I would be wary of introducing anything that is not supposed to be in there like, rivots, JBweld, epoxy etc. it may break up in the hot oil and chunks float into the pump again.
If you do put them inside, it seems safer just to let the magnet stick itself to the bottom of the pan. If it somehow bounces it cannot get through the pickup screen anyway.
Anyway, I really do wish the best outcome for you and your awesome beast of a car!
Dennis
I believe based on your previous correction of my "Misunderstanding" of 200 1/8th inch holes are the equivalent of 400 1/16th inch holes, that the combined circumferences of twelve 1 inch pipes is GREATER the the circumference of one 12 inch pipe...UNLESS the parasitic/drag effect of twelve 1 inch pipe walls is greater than the parasitic/drag effect of one 12 inch pipe...DAMN!!!...with that "Cover my A$$" answer I could run for President!quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
the question at work
"which would flow more water; 12 one inch pipes or one 12 inch pipe" you would be surprised at "engineers" that answer quickly and wrong
I'll still answer that the twelve 1 inch pipes flow GREATER!...Final Answer Alex!...Mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImaYMoTi2g8
I saw this thread initally, then lost track, so just read back through it and here's my 2 cents.
There are a lot of us running an Aviad pan and pickup with the mesh provided, so I don't beleive there is anything fundamentally wrong with the design.
There is mention of roller needles in the oil pump; which side intake/pickup or output? I don't believe the act of pouring new oil in would have dislodged pieces on the bottom of the oil pan. The oil has to flow down through all the oil ways under gravity at ambient temp, just not going to have much impact in the oil pan IMO. You may have dislodged pieces stuck in oil gallies or the heads, a theory which would be supported if any of the pieces are on the outflow side of the pump.
The use of a magnet is only addressing the sympton, if you are losing metal pieces you have bigger woes coming, it's just a matter of time. If you can convince yourself it's from a prior problem then a thorough clean and flush of all the oil passageways is absolutely warranted before re-assembly IMO.
If you do use a magnet it doesn't need to be in the oil pan, you can place it on the outside and it will do just as good a job of collecting ferrous pieces in one place, without the worry it too becomes part of the problem.
The particles in oil raises the quetion of oil filters again, are you using a std by-passing filter or a non-bypassing, the latter providing greater insurance.
I would not recommend just changing to a thinner oil without some further investigations. If this is a NASCAR motor what tolerances was it built to and recommended oil grade? Too thin and you could do just as much damage if bearing clearances are set for a thicker oil, which race engines often are.
Good luck,
Julian
There are a lot of us running an Aviad pan and pickup with the mesh provided, so I don't beleive there is anything fundamentally wrong with the design.
There is mention of roller needles in the oil pump; which side intake/pickup or output? I don't believe the act of pouring new oil in would have dislodged pieces on the bottom of the oil pan. The oil has to flow down through all the oil ways under gravity at ambient temp, just not going to have much impact in the oil pan IMO. You may have dislodged pieces stuck in oil gallies or the heads, a theory which would be supported if any of the pieces are on the outflow side of the pump.
The use of a magnet is only addressing the sympton, if you are losing metal pieces you have bigger woes coming, it's just a matter of time. If you can convince yourself it's from a prior problem then a thorough clean and flush of all the oil passageways is absolutely warranted before re-assembly IMO.
If you do use a magnet it doesn't need to be in the oil pan, you can place it on the outside and it will do just as good a job of collecting ferrous pieces in one place, without the worry it too becomes part of the problem.
The particles in oil raises the quetion of oil filters again, are you using a std by-passing filter or a non-bypassing, the latter providing greater insurance.
I would not recommend just changing to a thinner oil without some further investigations. If this is a NASCAR motor what tolerances was it built to and recommended oil grade? Too thin and you could do just as much damage if bearing clearances are set for a thicker oil, which race engines often are.
Good luck,
Julian
quote:posted February 23, 2015 12:11 PM Hide Post
I am affraid to answer.
Yes! It finally happened! PanteraDoug stopped
Mike!, Mike!, Mike!....QUIT trying to reinvent the wheel!!!
NO NEED to JB weld or weld ANY magnet/s INSIDE the pan!
Just do as I & others have so correctly suggested & place as I suggested a sheet magnet on the OUTSIDE of the pan! or as others suggested various configurations of magnets, ALL on the OUTSIDE of the pan!
You can lead a horse to water, but CAN'T make him drink!, DON'T be that horse!!!...Mark
NO NEED to JB weld or weld ANY magnet/s INSIDE the pan!
Just do as I & others have so correctly suggested & place as I suggested a sheet magnet on the OUTSIDE of the pan! or as others suggested various configurations of magnets, ALL on the OUTSIDE of the pan!
You can lead a horse to water, but CAN'T make him drink!, DON'T be that horse!!!...Mark
The pan is all cleaned and buttoned up.
I stuck the magnets on the outside of the pan, where they still have quite a bit of power to attract any magnetic particles.
The engine was running perfectly, quiet as a mouse actually for a solid lifter motor.
The valvetrain all checks out. It is all perfect.
I believe all the pieces found are from the previous rocker failure.
The design of the pan is such that debris can be captured in areas of the pan, and unless disturbed, can live down there without ever getting to the pickup.
There's a 1/4" lip at each of the 4 flaps that the offending piece had to jump to make it into the "kill box" and be sucked into the pump.
I believe Roger cleaned things up, the stuff went down and lived in one of the sections of the pan for who knows how long.
Only after I added the oil, did it either wash something down, or whooshed something over one of the flap lips into the pickup box.
There was no other real damage to the pump, and anything that made it through the pump went into the filter. The pump showed that very little "bad stuff" had gone through the pump, mainly just the one chunk that stopped it when I changed the oil.
The motor never even made a full revolution before the piece stopped the oil pump.
Given the situation, I've taken measures to make sure anything the size of the pins found in the pan either get caught by magnets, or cannot get through the screen. Even if more pieces get washed down, they shouldn't be able to cause this issue again.
I've cleaned the pan, I know the engine runs, no damage has happened on my watch except for the oil pump which I've replaced.
SO, the plan is to put the motor back together and run it.
Next year I'll have enough saved to go through the engine (and the gearbox while it's all out), and I think/hope things should be OK until then.
It's all I can do in this situation, short of parking the car for a year. If the motor blows holes through the sides then I'll build a new motor next year.
I stuck the magnets on the outside of the pan, where they still have quite a bit of power to attract any magnetic particles.
The engine was running perfectly, quiet as a mouse actually for a solid lifter motor.
The valvetrain all checks out. It is all perfect.
I believe all the pieces found are from the previous rocker failure.
The design of the pan is such that debris can be captured in areas of the pan, and unless disturbed, can live down there without ever getting to the pickup.
There's a 1/4" lip at each of the 4 flaps that the offending piece had to jump to make it into the "kill box" and be sucked into the pump.
I believe Roger cleaned things up, the stuff went down and lived in one of the sections of the pan for who knows how long.
Only after I added the oil, did it either wash something down, or whooshed something over one of the flap lips into the pickup box.
There was no other real damage to the pump, and anything that made it through the pump went into the filter. The pump showed that very little "bad stuff" had gone through the pump, mainly just the one chunk that stopped it when I changed the oil.
The motor never even made a full revolution before the piece stopped the oil pump.
Given the situation, I've taken measures to make sure anything the size of the pins found in the pan either get caught by magnets, or cannot get through the screen. Even if more pieces get washed down, they shouldn't be able to cause this issue again.
I've cleaned the pan, I know the engine runs, no damage has happened on my watch except for the oil pump which I've replaced.
SO, the plan is to put the motor back together and run it.
Next year I'll have enough saved to go through the engine (and the gearbox while it's all out), and I think/hope things should be OK until then.
It's all I can do in this situation, short of parking the car for a year. If the motor blows holes through the sides then I'll build a new motor next year.
I have heard that if a trip starts out bad, it will be a great adventure!
I hope that holds true in this case!
I'll feel better, and I'm looking forward to getting her back running.
I'll feel better, and I'm looking forward to getting her back running.
Must have been a relief to hear it fire up and run smoothly!
Hope your chest heals fast as well, Mike
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:quote:posted February 23, 2015 12:11 PM Hide Post
I am affraid to answer.
Yes! It finally happened! PanteraDoug stopped
She hasn't fired up yet. I still have a butt-load of more work to do to put the car all back together.
It will be sweet when it fires up again.
It will be sweet when it fires up again.
quote:Originally posted by sjdennis:
Must have been a relief to hear it fire up and run smoothly!
Hope your chest heals fast as well, Mike
Sorry Mike, one more link to think about. I've been using these and have had no issues since my rebuild. I have not cut one apart to see what was trapped so I can't really say if they work. Good luck and I can't wait for you to hear it roar again, post a youtube vid of the start up.
Jomar No by-pass Oil Filter
Jomar No by-pass Oil Filter
The pump has a bypass on it as well.
Do the bypasses get used every time you cold-start the engine?
Or are they there for when you over-rev the engine with too cold of oil?
Do the bypasses get used every time you cold-start the engine?
Or are they there for when you over-rev the engine with too cold of oil?
The pump is bypassing oil most of the time. That's why your hot oil pressure stabilizes at whatever it stays at (80 psi?) and doesn't fluctuate with RPM.
Rocky
Rocky
quote:Originally posted by Rocky:
The pump is bypassing oil most of the time....
Does the relief dump/spray the oil back in the area near the suction screen? or is it ported farther back in the pan? or is it just recirced directly back in to inlet flow?
Nyneighbor said he had a few hours this afternoon to help me.
I am in severe pan from my injury (injuries always seem to hurt worse a couple days after the incident), BUT,,,,
I got the oil pump ready, converted the pickup over to the new pump, got the pan cleaned and ready for install.
Today if I can I'll get under and clean the engine block if there's any silicone left, and prep the block for the pan install.
Then it's on to buttoning the car up.
I have a few new rubber hoses to replace, and still have to fix the distributor pin as well.
It all should be ready tonight when Chuck comes to help me, so progress can be made.
Snow White is in her deep sleep, poisoned by the apple she ate. Now the Prince will come and give her that kiss that wakes her up, and the dwarfs and all the animals of the forest rejoice.
Hopefully the story ends like the movie, and Snow White and the Prince go off to live happily ever after.
Measures are in place to prevent the same thing from happening again, no guarantees something else may happen (as suggested, it's a race motor, expect race breakage) but hopefully this will be the end of any issues and the motor should run fine until I get to doing a proper rebuild next year.
I am in severe pan from my injury (injuries always seem to hurt worse a couple days after the incident), BUT,,,,
I got the oil pump ready, converted the pickup over to the new pump, got the pan cleaned and ready for install.
Today if I can I'll get under and clean the engine block if there's any silicone left, and prep the block for the pan install.
Then it's on to buttoning the car up.
I have a few new rubber hoses to replace, and still have to fix the distributor pin as well.
It all should be ready tonight when Chuck comes to help me, so progress can be made.
Snow White is in her deep sleep, poisoned by the apple she ate. Now the Prince will come and give her that kiss that wakes her up, and the dwarfs and all the animals of the forest rejoice.
Hopefully the story ends like the movie, and Snow White and the Prince go off to live happily ever after.
Measures are in place to prevent the same thing from happening again, no guarantees something else may happen (as suggested, it's a race motor, expect race breakage) but hopefully this will be the end of any issues and the motor should run fine until I get to doing a proper rebuild next year.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
Does the relief dump/spray the oil back in the area near the suction screen? or is it ported farther back in the pan? or is it just recirced directly back in to inlet flow?
I believe it just ports it back to the inteke of the gearrotor. Whereveer it squirts it back out at, it is very close to the pump suction, but I thought it was an internal bypass.
Rocky
All oil pumps have internal bypasses in a very short loop inside the pump body. A std 351-C gearotor pump can develop well over 150 psi with a blocked bypass piston or a sufficiently stiff relief spring. In a Pantera with an engine similar to yours that I was driving in competition, the engine builder had put in a high-pressure relief spring, and the car owner added 20W50-wt oil. The combination (plus 7000 rpms- I LOVE the sound of 180 headers!) blew the oil filter can right off the block! Dumping 10 qts of oil on track, I was not elected 'most popular driver' at that event...
Note- in Aviaid pans, the embossed ribs in the pan floor are open below the trap-door box. The errant needles likely washed under the box thru one of those at some point. Your magnetic sheet will freeze any more in place until you can pressure-wash the pan, block & heads at really high pressure. This is the kind of stuff that often happens with welded oil coolers- it's just very difficult to clean out metal debris from a blow-up (or in your case, simple breakage) from oil-soaked parts. Sonic cleaning sometimes helps.
Note- in Aviaid pans, the embossed ribs in the pan floor are open below the trap-door box. The errant needles likely washed under the box thru one of those at some point. Your magnetic sheet will freeze any more in place until you can pressure-wash the pan, block & heads at really high pressure. This is the kind of stuff that often happens with welded oil coolers- it's just very difficult to clean out metal debris from a blow-up (or in your case, simple breakage) from oil-soaked parts. Sonic cleaning sometimes helps.
I agree about the pan being difficult to clean, and holding onto parts stuck in the nooks and crannies. When I used high pressure water and soap to initially clean the pan, it knocked 3 or 4 more bearing pins out from hiding. I found a couple more after running a magnet around every crevice.
That is why the new finer pickup screen is going into place and staying there. There's just too much at risk. The drawback is I'll have to be careful when the engine is cold, and warm it up REAL good before driving.
Pulled the distributor to fix the sheared pin, and found the advance mechanism is not functioning, sticking badly.
This might explain the erratic idle the car had that I attributed to linkage being affected by heat (expansion and contraction). Idle would stick high, and take a throttle blip to get it to drop. Now though, after seeing how sticky the advance mechanism is (it doesn't spring back) I either need to send the diz off for service or just buy a new one, just another $450 is all.
If I have to buy a new distributor, I can replace with the same Unilite exact replacement, or I could get something else I suppose. I don't want to deal with rewiring, I just want my car back running. Tomorrow I'll call Mallory and see what their turnaround time is on service.
I'd love to go distributorless, or coil-on-plug, but that's another day.
That is why the new finer pickup screen is going into place and staying there. There's just too much at risk. The drawback is I'll have to be careful when the engine is cold, and warm it up REAL good before driving.
Pulled the distributor to fix the sheared pin, and found the advance mechanism is not functioning, sticking badly.
This might explain the erratic idle the car had that I attributed to linkage being affected by heat (expansion and contraction). Idle would stick high, and take a throttle blip to get it to drop. Now though, after seeing how sticky the advance mechanism is (it doesn't spring back) I either need to send the diz off for service or just buy a new one, just another $450 is all.
If I have to buy a new distributor, I can replace with the same Unilite exact replacement, or I could get something else I suppose. I don't want to deal with rewiring, I just want my car back running. Tomorrow I'll call Mallory and see what their turnaround time is on service.
I'd love to go distributorless, or coil-on-plug, but that's another day.
Remove the springs FIRST to determine whether or not you have a fatigued spring/s, might just be in need of a cleaning/oiling/new springs...a few bucks for a set of springs, some oil & labour & you are working...Mark
Yeah, it's a little more sticky/stuck than that. I can advance the mechanism, and it stays advanced. Then, with force, it can be twisted back to no advance.
It's either shot, or I damaged it when trying to tap the distributor gear on and off.
I was very careful to not freely whack on the shaft when trying to install/uninstall the gear, but I fear my tapping with the hammer may have pushed the advance mechanism up or down to where it's now rubbing against to part of the diz below it.
It's going to need servicing or replacing unfortunately.
It's either shot, or I damaged it when trying to tap the distributor gear on and off.
I was very careful to not freely whack on the shaft when trying to install/uninstall the gear, but I fear my tapping with the hammer may have pushed the advance mechanism up or down to where it's now rubbing against to part of the diz below it.
It's going to need servicing or replacing unfortunately.
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Remove the springs FIRST to determine whether or not you have a fatigued spring/s, might just be in need of a cleaning/oiling/new springs...a few bucks for a set of springs, some oil & labour & you are working...Mark
OK, we are close to installing the pan. I have a little more scraping of old RTV off the block, some rubber undercoating to spray, and the pan should be ready to go back on.
Tomorrow morning early I'm either arranging to have me distributor serviced, and overnighted back and forth, or I'm ordering a new distributor and just be done with that part.
Either way, I'm not sure if they drill the hole in the shaft or not. Even if I order a new one, I may overnight my old one so they can match the gear position on the shaft. Otherwise I'll have to find a machine shop to drill the holes in the shaft and gear, and make sure the adjustment is perfect.
In any case, Snow White is a few days away from running again.
Tomorrow morning early I'm either arranging to have me distributor serviced, and overnighted back and forth, or I'm ordering a new distributor and just be done with that part.
Either way, I'm not sure if they drill the hole in the shaft or not. Even if I order a new one, I may overnight my old one so they can match the gear position on the shaft. Otherwise I'll have to find a machine shop to drill the holes in the shaft and gear, and make sure the adjustment is perfect.
In any case, Snow White is a few days away from running again.
Mike, remember that even more important than keeping your Pantera running is keeping yourself running. I also hate when a project is on hold, but make sure you don't re-hurt yourself. It can wait. It can...
Don't you have EFI with a CPU? Shouldn't the distributor be locked?
Will
Will