chassis rigidity systems

I spent some time researching to find what I thought was best functionally and not just best bling. Also, some of the vendors will only sell you a full kit but I'm not convinced it is all needed.

FWIW I went with Larry Stock's cross braces. The rear attaches at the engine mounting points and the rearmost suspension carriers. The front brace is similar but has a true crossover and involves welding in the mounting brackets. These plus a good camber bar (one that extends far enough to butt against the shock carrier, not just bolt in the holes) should be enough I think.

The Pantera upper front trunk is a boxed section and really doesn't require any further rigidity, the upper front trunk braces just eat up what little trunk space there is in my opinion.

I have the Hall front and rear upper and lower kit. I really like the lower portian of the kit that boxes the frame and gives the lower a arm bolts a little more material to pull on instead of the stock thin frame steel. Upper are nice and I see the purpose in having them but they take up a lot of space in the front trunk.

Daniel:

Mark has a very important point, especially given that you are driving a late model car. The post-Ford era Panteras lack the internal bracing within the rear frame rails that the earlier cars had, and so are prone to collapse. Charlie McCall had this happen, and was fortunate enough to catch it before the rear suspension tore out completely at an inopportune moment. If you choose to go with a brace system that does not act as reinforcement for the rear lower control arm attachment points, you really should invest in some other method of fixing the problem.

I will send you a collection of general information on chassis bracing directly via e-mail.

quote:

The post-Ford era Panteras lack the internal bracing within the rear frame rails that the earlier cars had, and so are prone to collapse. Charlie McCall had this happen, and was fortunate enough to catch it before the rear suspension tore out completely at an inopportune moment.

Excellent point Peter, I tend to forget as my GT5 has been fully strengthened throughout the rear frame rails.

Thanks guys
Peter, I rec'd your info, thank you. Wich system fits best and solves the rear frame issue, all the mfg. say there's is the best, so.......what works in the real world.
Daniel
P.S.
MME finished my engine and dyno test.
final numbers.......7304rpm 680.9hp

Precision ProFormance has basically the same kit as the Hall kit. I did the same as Mark, I used the lower front and the upper and lower rear braces. I also have a 4 point roll bar which all together really ties things down. You can really feel a difference under hard cornering. Especially if you ran it before with out the bracing and now with, you really could tell the difference. Plus, no more stress cracks.

A little off topic but can I install a rear kit and still carry my trunk tub? My car has the dreaded stress cracks and they are getting worse!
Thanks
Doug M

quote:

Originally posted by INZOWHO:
A little off topic but can I install a rear kit and still carry my trunk tub? My car has the dreaded stress cracks and they are getting worse!
Thanks
Doug M

You can install the Precision Proformance upper rear and still put the trunk in.

Thanks

I looked up proformance, looks like its built right, pricey however you get what you pay for.
does any one know if it solves the rear suspension frame issues, they were not clear on the web if it did.

Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel #9191:
Thanks

I looked up proformance, looks like its built right, pricey however you get what you pay for.
does any one know if it solves the rear suspension frame issues, they were not clear on the web if it did.

Daniel

I know this kit does away with the welded in cross member brace and does give a better attachment point for the lower "A" arms. I installed my kit several years before I installed the 17" wheels and tires. It seems that the larger wheel/tire package does put more stress on the body and frame because there is so much more grip with the tires. I could not tell that my car drove or handled much different after installing the system. I did not install the front trunk brace because it would eliminate some storage space that we always use on trips. I don't feel that the upper front brace will do enough to make it worth installing because chassis bracing does more good on the bottom than the top.

I am not convinced that the stress cracking on these cars is due to lack of body rigidity. In my opinion and those of some very good body and paint people, the stress cracks are from the original lead body filler that was used on the body seams.

I also feel that the cars can use some extra bracing even if the gain is hard to notice. Having a removable lower rear crossmember makes it nice if you want to take the oil pan off.

I had the usual Pantera cracks on the pillars along with the mashed up rear deck corners. Since I installed the Hall kits 7 years ago nothing has gotten any worse. And this with a lot of hard driving and about 200 more HP. Unlike most Pcar parts, all fit perfectly. Highly recommended.

Thanks again for the info,
Does any one have pictures of the Hall rigidity kit? I look on there site and did see it. Proformance is twice as much $, why? Proformance is made out of chromemoly and apparently bolts where the suspension points are and solves the rear problem, however I didnt know I have to cut out original frame, I not to keen on cutting the original car up.
That said any info on Halls system?
Thanks
Daniel

You do have to cut out a small cross member in the rear frame and its not that big of a deal. I saved mine it can be welded back in easily if you ever remove the chassis kit.

Precision Proformance and Hall are the same kit made by the same sub contractor. The one exception is the top rear brace. The Precision Proformance has a round bar that fits in the square camber bar pockets held in place by the camber bar bolts. The Hall kit has a square camber bar that wedges and bolts in tight between the fenders in the same area.

The only problem with the Hall kit is that the square adjustable camber bar is not included in their chassis kit. You have to buy the adjustable camber bar in addition to the chassis kit and weld together the upper rear brace assembly. That may be part of the price difference.

The Precision Proformance comes complete ready to install. I welded in my front kit however I have seen them bolted in too.

Hope that helps

From taking a good look at the structure of the car, to things people have tested, I am not sure the front kit is needed.

The back end however is another thing. It's well known the back end is like an open cardboard box. I attacked 2 different issues with mine.

First is the wheel well flex. If you see how the wheel wells attach, it sets up for the wheel wells to flex back and forth weakening where the wheel wells mount to the frame. I am making my own ladder bar, reinforced the attach area with plate. I have another attach point to make but I also doubled up the original attach point. It had a slot but I brought it down to a hole:




There will be two bars across but the bars need to be tied together. If not the whole unit can hinge so to speak.

The second thing is the opening in the back acts like an open card board box. I build a roll bar and tie it into the roof and the well. Idealistically there should be a cross bar. It's just not realistic or overly necessary once gone this far.




Gary

I have always wanted to build a full race pantera where I would build a full roll cage and tie the frond end all the way back to the rear. Maybe one day in the near future (when the economy recovers). I always am envious when I see projects like that moving forward.
When we installed the rigidity kit on my blue car, I noticed a difference in my lap times. I was also running slicks, but noticed almost a 1-1.5 seconds improvement per lap very consistantly. We had installed the 4 point roll bar near the same time, but I don't remember if that also had been done before we took it back to the track. I don't think we did anything else to the car as far as tuning or anything and weather was almost identical. It is always possible that maybe a small difference in alignment took place, but I really don't know. But I have always felt like the car handled and stuck to the track better after we installed the rigidity kit. And I know that the stress cracks never got any worse. Where before you would see them get longer everyday after an track day.

quote:

Originally posted by Rapid:And I know that the stress cracks never got any worse. Where before you would see them get longer everyday after an track day.

Did you have a rigidity kit in the front? did you have any cracks associated with the front of the car without one? I took a good long look at the front and I don't see any reason to do so other then the fact others are doing so. It makes we wonder what if any problem there is on the front (unless the car is rusted or something like that).

Daniel,

Here's a photo Tara sent me just last week as I too was looking at the Hall kit for the upper rear of my '74. The photo actually shows the complete Hall bracing kit of all four pieces, the upper rear is in the upper right of the photo (the 5 pieces). As previously stated in the thread it's a weld together in addition to you existing camber bar and assumes you currently have a square steel camber bar.

In comparison the Precision Proformance unit is a complete easy 'bolt in', so a lot depends on what level you assign to your time or the cost of having someone weld it altogether.

Does anyone have pix of the rear rigidity kit (either Hall or PPF) installed?

As well, what price can one expect to pay for the kit?

Here's what I think is the Hall upper rear brace (or certainly very similar). The PPC one is again similar but has a round upper bar. Reputedly the square bar that butts right up against where the shock mounts the other side is a better idea as it forces against that and does not just rely on the holes the bolts pass through to hold it solid.

The Hall square camber bar is $99 and then it's another $199 for the lower section to make it all up. I think it works out cheaper per piece if you buy the complete rigidity system i.e. all four braces. I thought PPC were only selling the kit complete anyway, it used to be around the $1,000 mark.

COMP2, Yes on my blue car I had the upper and the lower braces. I had seen small stress cracks showing up at the bottom of the windshield pillars, where the pillar meets the front fender. On my red car I did not install the top brace (only the bottom) because it took up too much space in the front trunk which I needed since I could not use the luggage tub in the engine compartment because of the 180 degree headers.

Eric, here is a shot of the lower brace (notice that precision Proformance's kit has a double set up on the rear lower brace)

And a second shot

Looks like it bolts in? No welding?

Correct. If you look inside where it bolts up you may see where a lip runs along the frame rail (I can't remember whether it was the upper portion or the lower portion) and one sticks out about a sixteenth of an inch further than the other. Les Gray milled the brace for me so that the brace would sit flat against the frame. Someone told me that some do not have this lip, I do not know if this is true or not, but mine did.

Does the luggage tray still fit when useing the hall system?

Here's mine. No lip. No welds. It bolts on to the suspension pickups.

I think my trunk insert still fits. If not it just needs a very small cutout.

another

Yes on my blue car the trunk tub still fit.

Great shots of the braces, your right they look like pro formance and are alot more resonably priced. I will surely call Hall Pantera monday and see what they have in stock and order accordingly.
thanks everyone, great stuff...
Daniel

During this winter I have installed the Proformance kit in my early push button car.
The rear lower item was almost impossible to install, as my frame rails was to narrow. Managed to get it in place after a lot of work. Like that it is bolted in place using the lower A arm bolts. Had to replace these bolts, as the original bolts was to short. There are almost no space between 2 of the bolts in the lower part of my ZF gearbox and the brace. This worries me. I am afraid the twisting/movement of the engin/tranny can result in damaging the gearbox. The upper rear brace is yet not installed, and I hope it is a bolt on.

The front lower item required more work. I like to keep my car "unmolested"/original, but had to weld nuts into the rails to be able to install the front lower kit.
Did not use the front upper item, and will check this summer if needed.

Hope this will prevent my stress cracks from developing further, and that there will be no damage caused to my ZF box by the close fit.
I do not know how the Hall kit is, but found the kit I bought quite costly. And also missed to have some info regards the installement.
Also bought a camber asjustment kit, They are useless on the early cars, as the upper A arms are different. A bit dissapointed to pay for this, as it was confirmed by Precision Proformance they knew this when I phoned him.(I had told him my car was #1155, and early push button before the order.

Brgds.
Frode
# 1155

hi everyone

spring has sprung, and i made a mistake this year, started to do too much on the car, many things to finish, so i am not on the road yet. ARG!!!!

ok, about the upper front frame brace, a couple of forum members, comp2 and joules5, have questioned the need for it. the point said that raised my interest was that joules5 said the front trunk area is a boxed structure and really does not need more rigidity. well, a visual comparison of the front trunk and the engine compartment clearly shows that the engine compartment is not as "boxed" as the front trunk and so the engine compartment would be in need of bracing, heck it has no "floor" to add rigidity, but the front trunk just really does not seem to need extra bracing. Whereas the engine well compartment (stock) has one narrow point brace to prevent side flexing, the front trunk has an entire floor positioned midway vertically plus structural cross members to prevent flexing.

so....it just seems to me, (not that i know anything) that the upper front brace is not needed, heck it's fastening pads (at least in my car) are not matched to the wheel well curvature, so there would be a small bit of flex even with the front upper brace.

thoughts anyone

nazgul

That upper front brace is providing additional rigidity to the front upper shock mounts. I feel it can not hurt to install the upper front brace and have on my car. I would agree that of the four braces it is the least needed.

I still have doubts for the front system should the front be in good condition. Everyone knows what a cardboard box the rear is.

The front is tightly integrated to other pieces of metal and I simply don't see issues up front anywhere near issues with the rear.