The only head core I could find was not a closed chamber type. It was an open chamber smog type. Does anyone know how much this will effect my performance?? The shop said not much at all? I run 8.5 to 1 compression pistons.
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...As far as I know; Open Chambered Heads with 'Dished' Pistons Equal 8.0:1 Comp. Open Chambers with 'Flat Top' pistons aprox. 9.0:1 Closed Chambers with dished pistons 9.0-9.5 and Closed Chambers with Flat Tops 10.5-10.6 comp ratio. This should be pretty close. Pop-up's/Domed pistons; your 'on your own' and won't run on any pump gas, unless your back east and can get the good 'Sunoco' fuel, or expect to add 'octane booster' to every tankload. Changing from open chambers with dished pistons; TO closed chambers with flat tops can make a difference of upwards to (some may say) 100 Horsepower(At The Flywheel). The Totak Outcome will depend on all other modified pieces of your Engine, I.E. Cam, Manifold, Carb(s), Fuel injection, Valve and port size, Port modification(polishing, radiusing), Ect. These figures are on a standard bore, to .030" Over 351/358 cu. in. Engine...
It isn't just cr in a Cleveland, it is combustion chamer shape.
I ran all of these combinations.
The absolute best is closed chambers and trw domed pistons with the fire slot. Unfortunately that needs 95+ octain.
The open chamber head with the pop-up piston didn't work well at all. It ran like a low compression engine wanting premium fuel.
I think for the street the best to run if you are talking Ford iron are the closed chamber with flat top pistons.
If you "blueprint" the engine it would be 10.5:1.
The stock C block/piston has a lot of deck height and the block needs to cut something like 30 to 40 thousands if I rember right.
Without decking the block it's something around 9.7:1. If you can still find the Reintz head gaskets then I think it would be around 10.2:1.
You should be able to get by on pump gas with a 10.5:1 engine and it will feel crisper to you.
There are camshafts that are made that are cut for "effective compression ratio".
What they do is let some of the cylinder pressure bleed out through the exhaust reducing the tendency of the engine to want to diesel because of the cylinder pressure.
The engine thinks it has less compression then the static measure.
Also, if you haven't thought of them, maybe this is the time to go aluminum.
Aluminum heads have the unusual property of disapating thermal heat of the chamber at a rate of approximately 1.1:1 vs. iron heads.
That reduces the tendency of sharp edges in the combustion chamber glowing and igniting lower octane fuels.
You should easaly be able to run around 11:1 with the combination of the three.
The Aussie 2v heads would be a good alternative budget wise. They are iron but they will crispen up the throttle with the smaller ports.
I never heard of so many Cleveland failures as lately.
For me it has always been a very hearty powerplant.
The problem with the Pantera is that you really don't know the complete history of every Pantera. How many times did it overheat badly under previous owners?
Certainly a cracked cylinder head can be from overheating as well as a cracked piston.
I ran all of these combinations.
The absolute best is closed chambers and trw domed pistons with the fire slot. Unfortunately that needs 95+ octain.
The open chamber head with the pop-up piston didn't work well at all. It ran like a low compression engine wanting premium fuel.
I think for the street the best to run if you are talking Ford iron are the closed chamber with flat top pistons.
If you "blueprint" the engine it would be 10.5:1.
The stock C block/piston has a lot of deck height and the block needs to cut something like 30 to 40 thousands if I rember right.
Without decking the block it's something around 9.7:1. If you can still find the Reintz head gaskets then I think it would be around 10.2:1.
You should be able to get by on pump gas with a 10.5:1 engine and it will feel crisper to you.
There are camshafts that are made that are cut for "effective compression ratio".
What they do is let some of the cylinder pressure bleed out through the exhaust reducing the tendency of the engine to want to diesel because of the cylinder pressure.
The engine thinks it has less compression then the static measure.
Also, if you haven't thought of them, maybe this is the time to go aluminum.
Aluminum heads have the unusual property of disapating thermal heat of the chamber at a rate of approximately 1.1:1 vs. iron heads.
That reduces the tendency of sharp edges in the combustion chamber glowing and igniting lower octane fuels.
You should easaly be able to run around 11:1 with the combination of the three.
The Aussie 2v heads would be a good alternative budget wise. They are iron but they will crispen up the throttle with the smaller ports.
I never heard of so many Cleveland failures as lately.
For me it has always been a very hearty powerplant.
The problem with the Pantera is that you really don't know the complete history of every Pantera. How many times did it overheat badly under previous owners?
Certainly a cracked cylinder head can be from overheating as well as a cracked piston.
Keith I wouldn't advise mixing heads as the engine shop suggested. I'm blown away that any engine shop would do that. It seems selling one head is more important to them than having you as a return customer, or the reliability of your car. Think about that.
With flat tops you would have 4 cylinders with 9.7:1 compression, and 4 with either 8.8:1 or 8.6:1, depending upon which open chamber head they're selling you ('71 - '72 open chambers are 3cc smaller than '73 - '74 open chambers). If you're running dished pistons at 8.5:1, then the other bank will have a dismal 7.6:1 compression or less.
You'll throw quite a stress & vibration onto that crank, the results of which are too unpredictable.
I have a pair of 1970 closed chamber heads I wasn't planning on selling, but to help you I will. I'll offer them at a fair price, but I want to sell them as a pair. If you're interested PM me.
cowboy from hell
With flat tops you would have 4 cylinders with 9.7:1 compression, and 4 with either 8.8:1 or 8.6:1, depending upon which open chamber head they're selling you ('71 - '72 open chambers are 3cc smaller than '73 - '74 open chambers). If you're running dished pistons at 8.5:1, then the other bank will have a dismal 7.6:1 compression or less.
You'll throw quite a stress & vibration onto that crank, the results of which are too unpredictable.
I have a pair of 1970 closed chamber heads I wasn't planning on selling, but to help you I will. I'll offer them at a fair price, but I want to sell them as a pair. If you're interested PM me.
cowboy from hell
I agree, it might act a bit weird, closed chamber on one side, and an open chamber on the other. My pistons are 8 1/2 to 1's. The engine did run fine, except for the white smoke spewing from the left bank. What the consensus with my club is to run the 2v heads, due to the poor density altitude and air flow. These heads are useless at this altitude. The head shop hasen't even bothered to start on it yet. How much do you want for your heads?
UPDATE! INSTALLED NEW CYL HEAD TODAY, STILL HAVE SAME PROBLEM, PUMPING WATER OUT OF CYL#7, WHICH CAN ONLY MEAN CRACKED BLOCK! YOU CAN SEE IT ON E-BAY! I'M TAPPED OUT!!
Sorry it didn’t work out for you and I admire your effort. It must be very disappointing. Sometimes these things can just eat your lunch and dinner!
Mike
Mike
Yea, I want to cry, but I just can't afford to fix it nor the energy to pull the engine again. It's on E-Bay, and it's already at ten k! Thanks for the sympathy.
I am sorry for being so stupid but I can't find your car on ebay under detomaso pantera.
Can you post a link?
Can you post a link?
It just really bites to read stories like this, where a loyal owner has to sell his car. Can't those Colorado Pantera boys come over, have an engine pulling party and someone donate a functional block to you?
Heck I'll chip in a few $$ towards another block for you if that means you can keep it.
Julian
Heck I'll chip in a few $$ towards another block for you if that means you can keep it.
Julian
Keith, if it's not too late, I'll donate a 2-bolt main D2AE-CA block to you, never been bored, if somebody will supply the shipping.
cowboy from hell
cowboy from hell
Thanks for the link. My detomaso pantera searches don't find a pantera detomaso listing.
Unreal. Man is my computer stupid or what or is it just me? Don't answer that...
Sorry for your troubles. I hope it all works out.
Unreal. Man is my computer stupid or what or is it just me? Don't answer that...
Sorry for your troubles. I hope it all works out.
If you search for "detomaso" it is not listed.
If you search for "de tomaso" it is.
If you search for "de tomaso" it is.
Thanks Rapier. That does explain it. De Tomaso was not given as a possible alternative. Even Ford Pantera comes up and it wasn't crossed in just Pantera. I hate that one with all the dime bag listings that come up from that ragass band.
All these years I've been missing out on correct searches. I'm so stupid. Imagine what I have missed out on?
I should be glad it isn't De'Tomaso.
All these years I've been missing out on correct searches. I'm so stupid. Imagine what I have missed out on?
I should be glad it isn't De'Tomaso.
quote:I hate that one with all the dime bag listings that come up from that ragass band.
Hint: use your start page as 'Ebay Motors' not Ebay.com and you can just use 'Pantera' as a key word without all the dimebag crap.
quote:Keith, if it's not too late, I'll donate a 2-bolt main D2AE-CA block to you, never been bored, if somebody will supply the shipping.
I'll cover ground freight cost to $100, will that be enough? I assume it's a bare block, correct?
Julian
Latest update, I added two types of block sealant to the block, The first is what the factory's use to seal block leaks,it's a black cube you crumble. Then I decided to add some $8.99 a bottle copper block sealant. It is actually working!!! For how long I don't know. But compression is back and it hasen't lost a drop. I drove it to the Golden cruise in 40 miles away. Had to melt the copper you know?? (my excuse and I am sticking to it)! It's stalled on E-Bay too. Maby it won't sell, and maby it won't leak anymore. Thanks guys for the block offer too!!!
I don't think that the block is cracked. What I think has happened is that you have a plug drop out.
What these are are essentially impuraties in the castings that resemble plugs in the castings.
They are smaller then a BB. They are closer in size to the diameter of a pencil lead.
They are usually stable until you remove metal arounmd them, like boring the block, porting the heads (O Lord do I know about that!).
You likely can repair it very successfully with the material you have applied (installed) into the block.
The water pump is not a high pressure device. It shouldn't blow out the plug once it is set.
Give it some more time to work. It would be nice to be able to keep the Pantera and declare victory over the dark forces in the Universe for once wouldn't it?
I'll drink to that!
What these are are essentially impuraties in the castings that resemble plugs in the castings.
They are smaller then a BB. They are closer in size to the diameter of a pencil lead.
They are usually stable until you remove metal arounmd them, like boring the block, porting the heads (O Lord do I know about that!).
You likely can repair it very successfully with the material you have applied (installed) into the block.
The water pump is not a high pressure device. It shouldn't blow out the plug once it is set.
Give it some more time to work. It would be nice to be able to keep the Pantera and declare victory over the dark forces in the Universe for once wouldn't it?
I'll drink to that!
Pull it off auction and take some time to think it through!
I might do that, I've never heard of "plugs" in the block, what did they do (purpose), and can I pull it off E-Bay? It hasen't leaked a drop of coolant in 100 miles. I am already crying. 
You can end it early but must do so before the bidding closes. Go here:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/end_early.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/end_early.html
Well guys I took your advice, we decided to keep it since you told me about the weird plug things, and it isn't leaking coolant at all?? It's never run so well either. If I sell it cheap, I woulden't be able to buy another one. I have so much labor in this one. I'll drive it easy from now on so I don't break anything else. Now I have to pay for my new cyl head! They are sure fun to drive. I would have been doomed to drive a C-5 Corvette???? Thanks!!!!
These things are impuraties in the castings. They are small unmelted bb's of iron or some other kind of crap in the iron. Maybe they are slag, I don't know.
They don't show up in the examinations and like to play havoc with the "thin wall" casting tecniques that Ford uses.
Sometimes they are the cause of unexplain porosaty in the casting. The plus side is that if they are in the water bulkeads they can often be plugged by the types of materials you installed permanently.
They don't show up in the examinations and like to play havoc with the "thin wall" casting tecniques that Ford uses.
Sometimes they are the cause of unexplain porosaty in the casting. The plus side is that if they are in the water bulkeads they can often be plugged by the types of materials you installed permanently.
Keith,
It was good to chat with you in Vegas. I had the blue and white EFI Pantera. I am glad you decided on keeping the car.
If your motor oil does not look like foamy mud, I would make the same decision, run the heck out of it and enjoy.
You know you have a project car from the east coast, so take your time and protect your investment. If it runs but burns a little oil or drinks some coolant who cares; as long as there is a smile on your face.
It was good to chat with you in Vegas. I had the blue and white EFI Pantera. I am glad you decided on keeping the car.
If your motor oil does not look like foamy mud, I would make the same decision, run the heck out of it and enjoy.
You know you have a project car from the east coast, so take your time and protect your investment. If it runs but burns a little oil or drinks some coolant who cares; as long as there is a smile on your face.
Keith,
Great news, if there is anything I can do to help from afar then just PM me.
Julian
Great news, if there is anything I can do to help from afar then just PM me.
Julian
Great News!!!!
Mike
Mike
Thanks again guys! I spoke to our Blue Oval engine specialist, and he walked me through the engine and had a perfect block to show me!(wish it was my block) the rods run from the head from top to bottom keep everything aligned during the casting phase. The blocks are made of pig iron with no carbon used, basically made cheap. I told him about my cylinder staining, and he thought it might be rust through on the cylinder wall. He could sleeve it for about $350.00 if I bring him the bare block. But until I need to I will be motoring around the front range. Panteras are good cars, but the owners are definately GREAT!!! Drive safe! Keith
quote:Originally posted by Keithstoy:
... Panteras are good cars, but the owners are definately GREAT...
AMEN!
Not a bad offer but to keep things in perspective you can get a nice used Aussie block from AusFord Parts for about $350. Granted only 2 bolts but that isn't very important.
The Getrag mint mark on the top is.
The Getrag mint mark on the top is.
Supply is getting smaller, the price is going up. On their web site it's $485 for a block that's been tanked, magged and sonic checked. Never bored. 2 bolt mains.
I woulden't mine building a new sonic'd and magnafluxed block. I will keep this one and have it sleeved and honed and decked for sure, $350.00 isn't bad, because I know what I have now. Still running well. Amazing copper goo!!
Good luck with your car! No other group of car owners equal to the Detomaso crew!!!
Update on cylinder. Boroscope revealed tiny rust through on the cylinder.. After having the block bored out, I asked engine rebuilder if rust stains would be a problem, he said definately no. Well he was wrong. Copper block sealant is working very well, 150+ miles with no problems, no coolant loss, even holds pressure overnight! Today I replaced bad pass side exh gasket(takes special gasket for headers...DUH) I learn something new every day!! Like a 2007 Pantera! Yea!!
Hi Keith. I know a guy who has a 4 bolt in storage. Probbly stock. He will probably give it up at a real reasonable price. Call me if your interested.
Hey Tobey, I thought you were in Florida!! Are you retired yet! How much for the block.??
Hey Tobey, Tell your friend that I want his block. Due to the rain my phone is not working, but we'll get together soon!