Cold and Confused

What about the smaller Kirk Evens Bumpers?

deeb:
I have a 74 (narrow body) and absolutely hated the front bumper from day 1. I bought Kirk Evans front two piece fiberglass bumpers and planned on painting them body color. After I bought them and before they went on I had reservations about making the change. Bit the bullet and did it. IT was positively the best thing ever I did to the car! Take a look at my avitar and see if you can imagine that look on your GT5!!

Well, thanks for the quick responses!

Mark, I looked at your bumpers but they only look good on a black car. They are heavy looking on a light coloured car. But what Imguy suggests is worth looking at - painting them white might work well. Are they rubber or fiberglass?

What about these little Euro bumpers from Wilkenson.

I vote no bumpers!
Jeff

Deeb,

In my opinion you need to go with the 'original' GT5 look; that is the small euro bumpers and not those N. American ones forced upon the car by some ridiculous 10mph crash mandate.

Here's #9178 sporting her original bumpers! BTW change the rear too while you are at it (see my avatar for the split rears.) I have a spare rear set in fiberglass thet need a little work, if you are interested PM me.

Pretty sweet Joules!

Or how about P.I Motorsport's carbon fiber small bumpers? -Steve

I did think about carbon fibre, but then I'd have to get carbon mirrors and rear bumper.

I just photoshopped the small Amerisport bumper from the red car your sent then painted it white. Not so nice. Too many angles whiteon white and too heavy black on white.

What works on a black or red or burgundy car looks dumb on a white car. I'm thinking less is more in this case.

No bumper might be good, but as Mark pointed out, needs a lot of work on the turn signal / driving lites.

Joules' car looks pretty sweet with the Euro bumpers, as do most of the GT5 cars I looked at on EU sites. But Joules' look to be the same dimension edge to edge. Maybe it's just the angle of the shot. The ones on Wilkenson's site are wider on the outside edge, which is what's needed.

I might as well add some fiberglass around my fog lites to close up some of that giant opening. I need to get those Euro bumpers here and try them out. Anyone have a set lying around?

I like no bumpas, but then again, I have turned into a modified freak. After 20 years with my stock body orange car, I seek tasteful but radical body changes. Some may think the front of mine below is kind of overboard, but I like it blended in...somethinh for your GT5 as well?

Hey Jan,

One of the first places I looked was your galleries.

Burgundy and Black have no bumpah indeed. And big Red has the little Euros. Not sure I can handle all the blending and fiberglass work. Your flares are altogether different as GT5S style.

But I did get some good ideas. Thanks all for the help!

quote:

Originally posted by deeb:
Hey Jan,

One of the first places I looked was your galleries.

Burgundy and Black have no bumpah indeed. And big Red has the little Euros. Not sure I can handle all the blending and fiberglass work. Your flares are altogether different as GT5S style.

But I did get some good ideas. Thanks all for the help!

Oops, I forgot you had fiberglass flares. Here is another car, probably metal flares though. I will post a couple others as well:

I went to check out Toms car in AZ before he sold it, probably one of the best executed cars I have seen. Modified turn signals, no bumpers. Here is a front shot:

Last one for now, another GT5 that PI had. I am sure I have better shots than this of the front, but that's all I could find right now.

Bumperless

Bumnperless

Deeb,

I'll go in the opposite direction...WITH BUMPER. I believe, like you said, that the 2 small bumpers will look heavy in anything but black.
Your black bumper adds a sportive touch...

You can always paint your car green and bumperless and become a member of the GREEN PANTERA ASSOCIATION...

quote:

You can always paint your car green and bumperless and become a member of the GREEN PANTERA ASSOCIATION...

YES, we (correction I) need more members

Testing...

not bad...

Deeb, if you want to do something really radical that no one else has done, you can put headlights in that area and then remove the pop-ups and get rid of 100 pounds of dead weight. Then close off the headlight opening and smooth it out and you can have a radically different Pantera that handles better, stops and accelerates better.

When I had my bumper off I noticed on my car that the fit of the front of the decklid and the body was less then stellar. So much so that I would not consider taking the bumper off without a major redo.

Looking at these pictures has helped me understand my problem. Thanks for the pictures everyone.

There are a lot of radical cars here. I am stuck with a body style that has the glass panels separated from the steel. The joints with the black filler between, give the car a distinctive look. I am not about to change it. Doing so would require a full body and paint.

Taking off the bumper reveals a lot of imperfections so I'm looking for a way to refine the entire front face. I sure learned a lot from these posts as well. I will probably smooth out all the joints and seams - direction signals and fog lite mounting - but will keep the rest of it untouched.

Not sure yet, but I think I will fab a Euro style bumper that flows better with the fender lines.

the euro bumpers look great, but i also like the BUMPERLESS look !!!

Hey Quick, do you have a front view close up? I want to see more of your car.

deeb, this is the only other pic of the front i have right now, my computer CRASHED and i lost over 200 photos of the restoration....DAMMIT !!!

David,

I know you are looking at all options right now. It is a good time given that you already have an Amerisport repro front bumper in your hip pocket. Good time to make sure on the way forward.

I would like to give you my opinion. Let me start off by saying that the appearance of a car (ie. "looks"), like women, art and wine, is very a subjective thing. Everyone has their taste and they all are good.

Here is what I feel.

1) The Amerisport small 2 piece front bumpers are great when put on a dark coloured car - preferably black. They look super on Mark's car. Just wouldn't work on my orange or your white car IMHO.

2) No bumpers. For my taste it makes the front end look incomplete albeit aggressive in nature. It creates a question of symmetry and balance with the rear. Which leads me to ...

3) Small euro bumpers do not provide enough symmetry and balance with the full 1-piece rear bumper. Although they do look better with the 2 piece small euro rear bumper.

It is just that, in my opinion, the full 1-piece rear bumper takes one's eye from the otherwise dominant rear A/C grill. The full 1-piece makes the rear end design elements more "equivalent" in impact.

4) The full late bumper, to my taste is the best in appearance. (Although the original rubber is TOO heavy and should be replaced with a fibreglass one.) Here's why I feel so:

i) It balances well with the full 1-piece rear bumper.
ii) In side profile the Pantera evokes the appearance of the chord of a high lift aerodynamic wing - with the tail of the wing forward and leading edge rearward. The full span bumper continues that design cue on the front end.
iii) It inspires the appearance of a race car front wing in design. Being an F1 nut - I like the cue.
iv) Finally, I like the front end protection. Twice I had my front end bumped - No damage thanks to the fibreglass full bumper.

So that is my 2 cents worth. Stick with the original external appearance.

Your buddy,

B.G.

Well stated B.G. I happen to agree with this virtually 100%.

Deeb, I like those small bumpers you are trying out similar to Julian's. With your car and that small black rubber seperation line of metal to fiberglass fenders those bumpers would look real nice. If you were smoothing out all that area I think only then the the bumperless look would be right.

Quik72, there are programs out there to retrieve data & photos from crashed hard drives, maybe check it out. I learned the hard way too, and now back up to a 250 GB external hard drive...only about $70 at Costco.

FWIW- the L front bumper aids handling by serving as a crude front wing- some cars with L bumpers and a little front rake seem to need no front spoiler to keep the front tires planted at 125-150 or so speeds. Bumperless and small front bumper cars wander and float alarmingly at those speeds due to aerodynamic front lift unless, as one friend did, you carry 125 lbs of truck tire chains in the front trunk!
As for the crashed hard drive, there are a variety of reasons for a crash. If its in the drive mechanism or its circuitry, be aware that the actual hard disc can sometimes be manually transferred to another similar drive, and magically, the 'new' drive then has all your data. Recovery geeks know all this stuff.

Boss, does the stock GT5 front wing and air dam not provide enough downforce? Do I really need the bumper?

I never had a problem with the front not sticking at high speed, but then again, I always had the big bumper.

Boss,

I recall that there were some reports that the L Bumper did provide some downforce. I did not mention this in my earlier post because I could not find the reference. My minds eye recalls the article I read. I have the Ford wind-tunnel reports on a 71 car (ref. Style-Auto). Ford had wind tunnel tested the Pantera as a comparison to the Boss 302 and GT-40. It was part of an evaluation to determine whether to campaign the car. When I tried to dig up the wind-tunnel report on the L bumper car in my DeT references I could not find it. The L bumper design was evaluated as a supplement.

I do remember that it was one of the reasons that the trailing edge of the bumper, just in front of the front decklid was designed to be above the leading edge of the car body. This was done to promote laminar airflow over the front of car. I did note that the wind-tunnel reference indicated a relatively higher front end lift with the early cars when compared to the L bumpered cars. The Ford wind-tunnel tests reflected early 70s cars thad did not have the chin spoiler as is intalled in GT4, GT5 and GT5S cars. It would have been good to see the wind-tunnel numbers (CL, CD, Forces) for a true GT5 like David's.

Can anyone else help with this?

B.G.

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
Bumperless

thats sweet. bumberless.

edit, hey, wheres the pic?

I have a 74L and had that big heavy ugly rubber bumper. It was falling apart, so I bought one of Hall's glass front bumpers. It took some grinding, but I made it fit pretty well and painted it gloss black. Had it for years, but I still thought the front looked pointed. I tried no bumpers but the car just looked wrong. Then a fellow pantera owner sold me a set of aluminum eyebrows and I really like the look of them on the L model.

is there more pics of the orange one with no bumpers?

quote:

Originally posted by deeb:
I might as well add some fiberglass around my fog lites to close up some of that giant opening.

Deeb:

As I'm sure you know, the ducts in the air dam are based on the Gr4 and are potentially functional with the addition of ducting to cool the brakes.

My personal opinion (which is worth exactly what you are paying for it) is that GT5 Panteras are exceedingly rare, and keeping the few remaining ones unmolested is important. When we bought our cars, we paid a lot of money for Italian design and styling. It seems counter-productive to me to mess with anything other than safety and performance upgrades. If customization is the objective, it seems to make more sense to me to start with a kit car rather than vandalizing a car with history and one that I would argue is a work of art and a legacy to future generations.

I suppose one could buy an Italian sculpture by Canova, Bernini or Michelangelo and have the right to customize it to one's tastes, but it would be unethical and illogical to do so.

Sorry about the rant. It's just that we're not talking about painting a mural on the side of a GMC van here. There were less than 250 GT5s built. In compiling my registry, I'm getting an appreciation for just how few remain, and so I'm finding myself getting somewhat defensive of them.

Anyway, here's a photo of my car next to Herman's, so you can get a direct comparison of the Euro spec bumper vs the DOT railroad tie:

Ouch. I'm falling on my sword now and buying a Lotus 4 banger.

I didn't mean it that way, Deeb. Just ignore my whining. I woke up this morning to -15 degrees and blowing snow, so I've been sinking slowly into a morass of seasonal affective disorder.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter H:
As I'm sure you know, the ducts in the air dam are based on the Gr4 and are potentially functional with the addition of ducting to cool the brakes.

Peter, does your car not have fog lights in those openings? I can't imagine much brake cooling effect with 80% blockage. Should David re-locate the lights and open the vents up even more? Moot question, I guess if he gets the Lotus... but if he keeps the car (or gets tired of getting tickets and gives it to me )what is the "right" thing to do?

Put the big bumper on.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Peter, does your car not have fog lights in those openings? I can't imagine much brake cooling effect with 80% blockage. Should David re-locate the lights and open the vents up even more? Moot question, I guess if he gets the Lotus... but if he keeps the car (or gets tired of getting tickets and gives it to me )what is the "right" thing to do?

My car did come with the Carello fog lights in the air dam brake cooling ducts. However, I caught a rock in one just before Monterey in 2006, and so I took them out. At obscene expense, I have located replacements, but have not installed them yet.

As far as I know, unless you ordered a Gr3 package, for some reason the factory never put in the hose to route the cold air from the air dam to the brakes. Therefore, the air dam openings were never really functional whether the lights were installed or not. And, yes, I expect that having the lights in the duct would cut 2/3 of the air flow.

It has not been a particularly critical question in my mind, because I have never experienced brake fade in my car despite some very, ummm, shall we say "spirited" driving in what may (or may not - in case my insurance company is reading this PURELY FICTIONAL ACCOUNT) have been a track-like environment.

My SAD-induced harangue to David was more about the GR4 origin of the air dam, and the original functional purpose of the openings in that application. My point was more about the history and the integrity of the original design.

The "right" thing for David to do is to ignore that self-important, bombastic and emetic gas bag from Charlie Lake, BC, and do whatever blows his hair back.

quote:

My car did come with the Carello fog lights

Can you post a photo, or better yet, a Carello part number, for those fog lights?

Thanks,

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by Peter H:
The "right" thing for David to do is to ignore that self-important, bombastic, and emetic gas bag from Charlie Lake, and do whatever blows his hair back.

Never known him to do anythings else! He breaks (almost) all the rules but has an amazing car and lots of fun. Keeps the rest of us (thankfully) from taking anything too seriously too.

Larry:

I got the lights from Precision Pro-Formance. PM me and I can tell you the price. They did not come in the original box, so I do not have a part number. PPF do not even list their own part numbers on the invoices, so I'm afraid will not be of much help on this question. I'll go out to the shop, shoot some photos and post them for you later today.

I have seen them in the past on E-Bay for a very reasonable price. I recommend you check there first. They may be hard to find in any event. PPF did not have them in stock when I first checked, but they then scrounged a set for me somehow.

Ok, the dirty deed is done.

I've traded in the big hunk of twisted rubber for these little bumperettes. After much messing around with options I picked these from Hall. Then I ground about half the aluminum off to get the fit I wanted.

Of course, as always, one thing led to another. With my nose clearly exposed (like a guy who cuts off a big mustache he's had all his life) I found all kinds of mess to deal with.

I filled all the cracks and holes and had a friend paint the front. He fixed a bunch of other typical Pantera cracks and then I ended up painting the entire rear face as well.

Anyhow, here it is. A little unorthodox for a legit GT5 owner to do, but a lot nicer than before - I think.

See all the previous pics in this post.

more...

Now all I need is a new set of clear turn signal lenses.

Peter,

Do I have to ask for forgiveness now? I still have that big bumper from Kirk, just in case we come out west!

Before and after. Ok. Tell the truth.

David,

It looks....well the way it was designed to look, not the way N. American Governments mandated it should look to pass an impact test. Had all GT5's been delivered to Europe they would all be this way anyway, so congratulations you now have a 'true GT5' look.

In regard to the discussion on the air dam cooling ducts, I notice the lower A arms have a hook that earlier cars don't have, presumably to tie the brake ducting to.

I like it!

Its a beautiful thing to behold.

It looks great, I like it better without the rubber bumper.

Looks nice. I like it. How will you find it in the snow now?

David, love the look. It just keeps better and better.
Richard T.

Looks amazing.

I removed my big from bumper and am currently deciding whether to put the small pumpers on, or remain bumperless.

Who makes the clear turn signals?

R.

David, I know I said that I liked the bumperless look earlier, but I must re-consider.I think the shorty bumpers really tie the car together visually and without a doubt look better that the original big slab of rubber. Every time I see pictures of your car it just keeps looking better and better!
Doug M

Well you just knew I would chime in on this one. Here is a vote for no bumpers.

Very nice turn out David, excellent choice and looks like it was done real well too. Bumperless may not have looked right with your car design. This is looks right.

Alright, David! The car looks fantastic. I'm with Julian on this one: the DOT railroad tie was never a part of the original design and the car looks much better without it.

David knows my thoughts, but I feel I should publicly support his choice since I've been trying to convince him to ditch the lead-wedge for a while now. I love the new look! Now my car will look even crappier beside (behind) it!

David,

I like the bumperless look myself and ditched mine in '06. The cars design can be better seen without it.

However, if you have to have that big bumper, I feel that the GT5 looks the best of all Pantera models with it. With the flares and skirts and wings visibly added on, it looks like another component to that style and blends in the best.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in person this season.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by David B:
more...

Now all I need is a new set of clear turn signal lenses.

David, If you are still looking for clear lenses, I noticed a pair on E-bay. Looked in really nice cond. Starting bid $10.00
Doug M

Thanks! It's DJEZC in Suffern. I sent him a PM but I'm not sure if he still checks in here.