What do you Mangusta guys make of this?
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IMHO, not much controversy, it seems like the guy knows enough to be dangerous, and not enough to really know. Even the letter from deTomaso says, they did not have the correct information.
The fact that it has a number that indicates it was early, but has the later style, well I mark that up to deTomaso and Ghia. I would not be surprised to find out that it was sitting someplace and then got make in 1970 and had the old vin. I would also not be surprised to hear that it had been changed.
When I worked there, we had a couple of Panteras that came in and we "updated" the car to the owners wishes. It was the way things were done for owners. If they wanted a GT5 Tail on an L, we did it.
Sadly, I have heard that my Aunt and Santiago are shreading some paperwork as they move to the new place. I hope that it is not stuff that people would have wanted, but who knows.
We
The fact that it has a number that indicates it was early, but has the later style, well I mark that up to deTomaso and Ghia. I would not be surprised to find out that it was sitting someplace and then got make in 1970 and had the old vin. I would also not be surprised to hear that it had been changed.
When I worked there, we had a couple of Panteras that came in and we "updated" the car to the owners wishes. It was the way things were done for owners. If they wanted a GT5 Tail on an L, we did it.
Sadly, I have heard that my Aunt and Santiago are shreading some paperwork as they move to the new place. I hope that it is not stuff that people would have wanted, but who knows.
We
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
quote:Originally posted by Wellis:
Sadly, I have heard that my Aunt and Santiago are shreading some paperwork as they move to the new place. I hope that it is not stuff that people would have wanted, but who knows.
We
Wellis, I am also sad because archives tell a story, and unfortunatelly I beleive the story of the Mangusta (and other cars preceding the Pantera) has not been written, The brand merits a
Denis
Instead of shredding, why not sell??? Understandable if it is sensitive material. The history of the marque belongs to the enthusiasts. More importantly, where are they going to?????????
My 2 cents are that it is very unlikely that the car was factory built this way. I would want to see the trail of ownership from new.
These things were usually owned by people who were somewhat knowledgeable of the breed. Particularly the Mangustas vs. the Panteras.
I would expect that the changes were made by a previous owner.
To me the owner is making an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof as far as I am concerned. Even if it is factory, considering the present condition of the car, the asking price is absolutely ridiculous.
Furthermore unfortunately the car is owned by a hardass, or should I say smartass, and there is absolutely no way to even reasonably approach the owner.
Sounds more like a "snakeoil" salesman to me. Look out for taking any of that stuff. You would be lucky to only go blind from it.
Just my opinion, but probably what many of you are thinking?
These things were usually owned by people who were somewhat knowledgeable of the breed. Particularly the Mangustas vs. the Panteras.
I would expect that the changes were made by a previous owner.
To me the owner is making an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof as far as I am concerned. Even if it is factory, considering the present condition of the car, the asking price is absolutely ridiculous.
Furthermore unfortunately the car is owned by a hardass, or should I say smartass, and there is absolutely no way to even reasonably approach the owner.
Sounds more like a "snakeoil" salesman to me. Look out for taking any of that stuff. You would be lucky to only go blind from it.
Just my opinion, but probably what many of you are thinking?
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
Doug, You may be a bit harsh. Only a handfull of DeTomaso cars have a clear ownership history and the registries have limited info on past owners. (FWIW I have contacted the last 6 owners of my car, but did not manage to get any info from them) I don't know the owner of this car, and I am also intrigued at some of the things on this car. Obviously had someone like SteveL or MikeD or Dana inpected it we would know more, but that isn't the case, and the owner does not appear to be a regular here at this forum. I personnally would love to spend just an hour to inspect and uncover a few things. The car may have been returned to the factory to upgrade to the later style headlamps (just as LP400 periscopo owners got the factory to retrofit the new style roof or it may have been done here, who knows until you inspect it.)
Ebay is a strange medium but it is also where you can find rare items anywhere on the planet. The seller can start the auction at 1$ (no listing fee) let the auction work his way up from there and hope he gets a descent price, or he can list it BuyItNow at 100K (pay $125) and take the best offer from there; a local buyer at 25k might be a better sell less trouble than an overseas one at 30K. But who knows how hard someone wants a the car. Some guy might have skills to rebuild it in his own garage for less than those clean looking ones or build a 'hotroad' or a racer... if you don't want don't bid, different strokes. Just sayin.
my 2 cents
Ebay is a strange medium but it is also where you can find rare items anywhere on the planet. The seller can start the auction at 1$ (no listing fee) let the auction work his way up from there and hope he gets a descent price, or he can list it BuyItNow at 100K (pay $125) and take the best offer from there; a local buyer at 25k might be a better sell less trouble than an overseas one at 30K. But who knows how hard someone wants a the car. Some guy might have skills to rebuild it in his own garage for less than those clean looking ones or build a 'hotroad' or a racer... if you don't want don't bid, different strokes. Just sayin.
my 2 cents
Well, in my opinion as a Mangusta owner, (and I will admit I am not the most qualified expert out there) there is lots to be concerned about with this particular car. Aside from the very expensive missing parts, the slap-dash paint job (nicely hides whatever color it was before), the silly asking price (which the seller feels is "not far off what he expects to get"), the inconsistency of pop-up lights on a very early chassis number, there is one other minor inconsistency.
When I looked at the photo of the VIN stamped into the chassis the star that usually separates the 8MA from the chassis number is missing. While not totally surprising (my car is stamped 1114*8MA — backwards), I have not seen a Goose VIN WITHOUT the star stamped. I'm sure there are some out there, but this adds to the flags of warning for me.
One thing that would really be a good indicator is if someone could see the car and remove the stainless trim from the rear-most side window because the chassis number will be stamped into that part on the inside edge. It is found in a host of other locations as well as seen on www.mangustainternational.com (where I lifted the comparison vin number photo without permission).
Mark
When I looked at the photo of the VIN stamped into the chassis the star that usually separates the 8MA from the chassis number is missing. While not totally surprising (my car is stamped 1114*8MA — backwards), I have not seen a Goose VIN WITHOUT the star stamped. I'm sure there are some out there, but this adds to the flags of warning for me.
One thing that would really be a good indicator is if someone could see the car and remove the stainless trim from the rear-most side window because the chassis number will be stamped into that part on the inside edge. It is found in a host of other locations as well as seen on www.mangustainternational.com (where I lifted the comparison vin number photo without permission).
Mark
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Well, you've got to say that the serial number font and size looks correct. Yes, it is definitely missing the star, but then again, DeTomaso did things his way.....
As far as value goes, this is the eleventh Mangusta built, so it is very early. If the seller is claiming all these special things that the car has, then for someone to come up with this kind of money, he had better have some sort of proof. He is asking the amount for an extremely nice, finished, no stories Mangusta -- and this one is missing some pretty expensive stuff, like the steering wheel and rims; and that is off the top of my head. So again, to ask $100 large for a car that needs a total restoration with missing parts and no documentation -- it really does not add up and I would be extremely surprised if anyone raised their hand for that amount. To me, this car is worth all that a Mangusta with needs is worth. Again, a finished beautiful example is worth $100K at this time; so if that is true, then what is this one worth.........
I say it is a "fright pig" that will consume lots of money and not be worth one's time, or money, of a nice one for $100K when all is said and done (unless one wants to work for free doing the work yourself and still will have a large bill for all the parts that are missing; let alone the cost of paint, chrome work, and other costs like interior, etc....).
Food for thought.
Mark
As far as value goes, this is the eleventh Mangusta built, so it is very early. If the seller is claiming all these special things that the car has, then for someone to come up with this kind of money, he had better have some sort of proof. He is asking the amount for an extremely nice, finished, no stories Mangusta -- and this one is missing some pretty expensive stuff, like the steering wheel and rims; and that is off the top of my head. So again, to ask $100 large for a car that needs a total restoration with missing parts and no documentation -- it really does not add up and I would be extremely surprised if anyone raised their hand for that amount. To me, this car is worth all that a Mangusta with needs is worth. Again, a finished beautiful example is worth $100K at this time; so if that is true, then what is this one worth.........
I say it is a "fright pig" that will consume lots of money and not be worth one's time, or money, of a nice one for $100K when all is said and done (unless one wants to work for free doing the work yourself and still will have a large bill for all the parts that are missing; let alone the cost of paint, chrome work, and other costs like interior, etc....).
Food for thought.
Mark
quote:Originally posted by Denis C:
Doug, You may be a bit harsh. Only a handfull of DeTomaso cars have a clear ownership history and the registries have limited info on past owners. (FWIW I have contacted the last 6 owners of my car, but did not manage to get any info from them) I don't know the owner of this car, and I am also intrigued at some of the things on this car. Obviously had someone like SteveL or MikeD or Dana inpected it we would know more, but that isn't the case, and the owner does not appear to be a regular here at this forum. I personnally would love to spend just an hour to inspect and uncover a few things. The car may have been returned to the factory to upgrade to the later style headlamps (just as LP400 periscopo owners got the factory to retrofit the new style roof or it may have been done here, who knows until you inspect it.)
Ebay is a strange medium but it is also where you can find rare items anywhere on the planet. The seller can start the auction at 1$ (no listing fee) let the auction work his way up from there and hope he gets a descent price, or he can list it BuyItNow at 100K (pay $125) and take the best offer from there; a local buyer at 25k might be a better sell less trouble than an overseas one at 30K. But who knows how hard someone wants a the car. Some guy might have skills to rebuild it in his own garage for less than those clean looking ones or build a 'hotroad' or a racer... if you don't want don't bid, different strokes. Just sayin.
my 2 cents
Harsh? Maybe, but not unfair or untruthful. I warn you about snakeoil. The last time I went blind for two days...oh wait, that might have been some 'shine'?
I'm also very skeptical of any scenario when someone unknown to me uses the term "rust free", particularly when refering to a Detomaso where the term is automatically inclusive?
Maybe in California rust means something else? I've already seen that in Arizona on "rust free" cars. In Arizonia that's not rust, it's desert barnacles? LMAO!
You are correct about the provenance being important, but often over looked. I look back on the summers spent running around the factory, and I try to remember what was going on at the time. I recently asked Santiago about getting some registry up, and he said he was going to work on it, but honestly Italy is totally different than the US. Everything takes years. I know that the move from the old factory, to the new place has taken 2 years plus. But I digress.
When I asked about my car, I got the build sheet, but not my time card. I asked about if it had been back to the factory for work, and I got "I have nothing more William to tell you." that is the way deTomaso handled everything. Don't get me wrong, my Aunt and Uncle loved every car that went out the door. They just did not get the idea that people would want to know about the little stuff. Or maybe they were afraid that people would not understand. The factory was a fun place for me as a teenager to work, but even I did not appreciate what people would want to know about it at the time. When we all stopped working to watch the Italian soccer team or when we were getting ready to go the boat, and everyone on the factory floor would stop building for a couple of days to "check the rubber boat motor, or wax the Red deauville." Or when Corgi would get us together to head up to pickup a Pantera that had stopped someplace nearby. I wish I had kept a complete log of the Vins that I had worked on and what we had done. Or even..shh... taken a picture. I once took a picture of the shop floor and "testa" made me give him the film... "the Sanitoria said no picture Willie" Oh well.
When I asked about my car, I got the build sheet, but not my time card. I asked about if it had been back to the factory for work, and I got "I have nothing more William to tell you." that is the way deTomaso handled everything. Don't get me wrong, my Aunt and Uncle loved every car that went out the door. They just did not get the idea that people would want to know about the little stuff. Or maybe they were afraid that people would not understand. The factory was a fun place for me as a teenager to work, but even I did not appreciate what people would want to know about it at the time. When we all stopped working to watch the Italian soccer team or when we were getting ready to go the boat, and everyone on the factory floor would stop building for a couple of days to "check the rubber boat motor, or wax the Red deauville." Or when Corgi would get us together to head up to pickup a Pantera that had stopped someplace nearby. I wish I had kept a complete log of the Vins that I had worked on and what we had done. Or even..shh... taken a picture. I once took a picture of the shop floor and "testa" made me give him the film... "the Sanitoria said no picture Willie" Oh well.
Its baaaaaaaack! A little more reasonably priced this timeControversial Goose
The addition (in the new auction photos) of the faxed letter from the factory certainly clears up the apparent inconsistency of a 2-lamp set-up on such an early chassis. It's still going to take an enormous amount of time and money to make this one right, but I'm (I hope) sure someone will take it on.
Mark
Mark
The obvious things that are missing from this car are the steering wheel and the alloy wheels. Does anyone know what these five items would cost someone? I am guessing a nice set of originals (if you could find them, would be in the $6,000 to $8,000 range; the steering wheel and related pieces would be in the maybe $1,200 range?).
I am just guessing on the above numbers. My point is, the obvious things that are missing will cost someone some serious dough; and then there's rust repair (however minor), body, paint, interior, brake rebuild, engine rebuild, transaxle rebuild, you get the idea. To get this car to a spectacular place (which I do believe is possible) will cost some serious money -- especially if one had to hire it all done. Seems it would be cheaper to buy the best one you could find for $100k.
Any thoughts? How far off base am I?
Mark
I am just guessing on the above numbers. My point is, the obvious things that are missing will cost someone some serious dough; and then there's rust repair (however minor), body, paint, interior, brake rebuild, engine rebuild, transaxle rebuild, you get the idea. To get this car to a spectacular place (which I do believe is possible) will cost some serious money -- especially if one had to hire it all done. Seems it would be cheaper to buy the best one you could find for $100k.
Any thoughts? How far off base am I?
Mark
Well, IMHO, given the state of the car and the KNOWN issues, the current bid of around $30K is at or maybe slightly above what I consider fair for the car. Maybe (probably) I'm a few years behind the current market pricing, but I don't see the value proposition given the selection of near and sub $100K cars (mostly the "more desirable" 4-headlight variants) that have been on the market for a while — in some cases over a year. Sure, this is a rare car overall, and even more so with the low VIN and early 2-lamp (the first to be so desecrated) configuration, but knowing De Tomaso as we all do, that could just mean it fell off the assembly line and it took them a while to push it back on and complete the car.
I'm curious to see where it ends, but I'll bet someone pays over (over-pays?) $50K for it.
Mark
I'm curious to see where it ends, but I'll bet someone pays over (over-pays?) $50K for it.
Mark
Mark, the most recent set of wheels (only 4) went for $16k! on eBay, just weeks ago, so agreeing with you that extra expenses are gonna add up!
I have to agree with the price comment. I think you have to get this thing for no more then 20. It need virtually everything done and is missing some parts and may need a bunch more replaced.
You simply will not know if and how much rust is on it until it gets stripped down. In fact, it might not even be a good buy at 20?
Who ever buys it, this will be for the passion of it.
I wouldn't mind but it still isn't reasonable. I'd take a guess and say this guy got it for around 10?
These things are labor intensive, will tie up a four car garage all by itself, and will take years to complete unless you send it all out. I say it will take around 80 to do it respectfully and then you need to make a decision on whether you "concours" the car or just make it a really nice driver.
A true accurate concours restoration on it is going to cost more then 80.
Buy one already done. It's cheaper and you can drive it right now.
Just my worthless opion.
You simply will not know if and how much rust is on it until it gets stripped down. In fact, it might not even be a good buy at 20?
Who ever buys it, this will be for the passion of it.
I wouldn't mind but it still isn't reasonable. I'd take a guess and say this guy got it for around 10?
These things are labor intensive, will tie up a four car garage all by itself, and will take years to complete unless you send it all out. I say it will take around 80 to do it respectfully and then you need to make a decision on whether you "concours" the car or just make it a really nice driver.
A true accurate concours restoration on it is going to cost more then 80.
Buy one already done. It's cheaper and you can drive it right now.
Just my worthless opion.
The seller has gotta put down the crack pipe!
I'd give him $15K for it, maybe...
I'd give him $15K for it, maybe...
I'd have to dissagree (respectfully ofcourse)
For the do it yourselfer (me) I could drop 40K on the car and still feel safe. I love to do this kind of work and the Goose is one of my favorite designs, as it is with many of us. I could see 40K for the car, another 25K in parts 800+ hours of labor and have a VERY NICE driver. I personally would not see the value in going concours. The labor would mean little to nothing as it is what I'd be doing on a lesser car anyhow. 65 to 75K finished and I would feel like a winner all day long. Problem is, I can't fit my fat A$$ in the car and I would want to park it in my living room and use it as a coffee table. Not very sporting is it? Just love the design and could stare at it for hours, like a beautiful woman, except cheaper
Point is, there are a lot of folks out here looking at this car with the same thoughts as me.
I am thinking the car would hit mid to low $40's and if it is less than that, it might be mine
For the do it yourselfer (me) I could drop 40K on the car and still feel safe. I love to do this kind of work and the Goose is one of my favorite designs, as it is with many of us. I could see 40K for the car, another 25K in parts 800+ hours of labor and have a VERY NICE driver. I personally would not see the value in going concours. The labor would mean little to nothing as it is what I'd be doing on a lesser car anyhow. 65 to 75K finished and I would feel like a winner all day long. Problem is, I can't fit my fat A$$ in the car and I would want to park it in my living room and use it as a coffee table. Not very sporting is it? Just love the design and could stare at it for hours, like a beautiful woman, except cheaper
Point is, there are a lot of folks out here looking at this car with the same thoughts as me.
I am thinking the car would hit mid to low $40's and if it is less than that, it might be mine
Well, for one, a simple diet would help you get in the car. 
My ass isn't THAT small and I fit fine. A set of long legs AND a tall upper body would be problematic (even more so with a fat ass...).
Keep in mind that there are a few things the average (not suggesting you are) Joe can't do, like rebuilding a ZF Dash-1. Still, I would agree that if you consider your time free and just value the end result as a nice Goose for $75K, it seems OK. That assumes you are able to find/make the missing parts or can live with the aftermarket alternatives. I've already bought my "needs a full resto" Goose a few years back when I had the cash but not the time or space. Now I have the space and am working on finding the time. Eventually, I will have a $75K nicely restored Goose (I hope) that could, when I'm done, be worth much more. So I guess if you pay $40K for the car you may just be "buying it early" at a fair price. However, if you plan to (or need to) pay to have the work done properly, this car is not a "deal" at over $30K IMHO.
Mark
My ass isn't THAT small and I fit fine. A set of long legs AND a tall upper body would be problematic (even more so with a fat ass...). Keep in mind that there are a few things the average (not suggesting you are) Joe can't do, like rebuilding a ZF Dash-1. Still, I would agree that if you consider your time free and just value the end result as a nice Goose for $75K, it seems OK. That assumes you are able to find/make the missing parts or can live with the aftermarket alternatives. I've already bought my "needs a full resto" Goose a few years back when I had the cash but not the time or space. Now I have the space and am working on finding the time. Eventually, I will have a $75K nicely restored Goose (I hope) that could, when I'm done, be worth much more. So I guess if you pay $40K for the car you may just be "buying it early" at a fair price. However, if you plan to (or need to) pay to have the work done properly, this car is not a "deal" at over $30K IMHO.
Mark
Mark
I would have to agree 100%.
I don't think that I would be willing to tackle the rebuild of the ZF but could handle just about anything else.
At 6-2 and 275 lbs, there is not a shoe horn big enough. Although owning a Goose would be great motivation to loose the weight.
I would have to agree 100%.
I don't think that I would be willing to tackle the rebuild of the ZF but could handle just about anything else.
At 6-2 and 275 lbs, there is not a shoe horn big enough. Although owning a Goose would be great motivation to loose the weight.
I called the owner, real nice guy and from the sounds of it, a very worthy car.
The reserve is higher than what I had hoped (or expected). I am out of the game
The reserve is higher than what I had hoped (or expected). I am out of the game
So what is he looking at for a minimum?
45 
OK, so you would be buying it several YEARS early at $45K. Still, the likelihood is that SOMEONE will eventually pay that much for it. FWIW, I think you are wise to pass on it. There will always be other opportunities. I know this first-hand because I missed out in several before I found mine.
Mark
Thanks for the encouragement. My Goose is out there somewhere. When the time is right the money and car will come together
Thanks for the encouragement. My Goose is out there somewhere. When the time is right the money and car will come together
Reserve not met at $32,600!
I personally am not surprised. It would sell at 20 to 25. A lot of people would be interested at that.
Hey!
This car was up on ebay a few years back, along with two other Geese and a 40ft trailer at the time. Owner was up north of LA near Six Flags. He had basically scabbed good parts from the three cars to make one nice car. When I spoke with him, about missing parts...I got a very nonchalant "I think they're around here somewhere" which to me...meant "I have no freaking clue where all that stuff is...." Not to mention the fact that this car and one other sat outside in the weather for decades. Note the condition of the interior on this particular car....nothing does that but natural sunlight! The third car lived in the trailer...along with cats....ugh!
So, 4 years back or so, there was a set of wheels on the car. No steering wheel..... I would put money on this current seller throwing them out on the market to get what he could, since the getting is good.
As for buying this car now? $15K. No more. Why so low? Because I own one, and I know how much trouble they can be! The ZF is surely rusty....if badly, simply throw it away and find another box.....as you will pay and pay and pay for each gear that is pitted and unserviceable. I heard that blocking rings (synchro rings to some) are selling for $300 now....can't imagine what gears are going for! It would be cheaper to buy a -1 Pantera box and gut it for parts....swapped into the Goose box.
Engine- rusty cylinder walls....
Body- rusted. How much work and $$$ do you sink into this? There are no clear pictures of the underside of the hatches, the bottoms of the doors, underneath the fuel tank/storage areas....
As for Provenance, I scream !!! Windows are dated mid 69. No way in hell was this an early car if these are the original pieces of glass. The brakes are not normal early brakes. If you look closely, this car has 3 piston calipers all around...not the giant aluminum versions.... This car is a "heinz 57" car.
The hatches are steel, not sure about the hood, but that is a very early feature, unlikely to have been lying around.....except for on a car that may have been sitting at Ghia for a while....as the two headlamp thing was being engineered! (If all of that is true!) THEN, it came back to the factory where it was assembled further... Dates on the intake manifold and heads/block/distributor and part number of the bellhousing would probably reveal a 302. Early cars as this would have normally had the hipo 289... or at least a very good possibility of it.
Car $15k
Body work and paint $20K (presuming there will be significant rust and metal replacement-could go higher)
Engine $5K Nothing fancy!
Transmission $10K
Wheels and tires (refinished) $5K REAL conservative here!
Refit brakes and other hydraulic systems $3K
Interior $10K May be low... everything is trashed and needs replacing!
Steering wheel $1K Probably low.....
New lens on all the lamps, new side markers $1K Could be high.
New mufflers $1K They can't have survived!
New Headers $1K Will need to be custom made...unless you buy old junk from factory parts supply....
Air cleaner and parts $1K
Just this adds up to $73K. There is margin here to still sell a now pristine restored car for more, however, I believe that labor cost is not fully reflected in the price estimates and could up the costs very quickly into the $85-90+K range.
While there are cars that have sold for much more than this, I believe them to be the reflection of what a non-stock custom restoration will do to a car.....and unconcerned and unknowing buyers. I'm talking a restoration to stock looking style. Also, you have the stigma of being a two headlamp car vs the more popular 4 headlamp version.
Since you cannot prove that this was the "first" two headlamp car, without tearing into places to prove the serial number issue, it offers little confirmation. How much more would that make the car even if it was!?
As one old timer told me, just because it's the first of a line of ugly cars, doesn't make it any more desirable or valuable!" (except for a few!) Same thing for the 1 of 1 scenario. If the car was ugly when it was new, chances are that it will be ugly still! (I AM NOT saying that 2 headlamp cars are ugly at all!!!! Just making a point about collecting.....) IF the car had a history of a celebrity owner, I think that would add more value than the conversion thing..... Being the first of one of these, could mean that you will have a hard time finding parts!!! ...as chances are, things changed a little bit as production hit the line!
I really believe that if the guy had even an ugly set of stock wheels on the car, that it would sell for the $30K range....but even that is pushing it on a car that needs a TOTAL resto and then some. Most are not going to invest $50-60K to make $5-10K or so. You would buy this car to rebuild it for yourself. Only then would it be worth the initial cost! IMHO.
Steve
This car was up on ebay a few years back, along with two other Geese and a 40ft trailer at the time. Owner was up north of LA near Six Flags. He had basically scabbed good parts from the three cars to make one nice car. When I spoke with him, about missing parts...I got a very nonchalant "I think they're around here somewhere" which to me...meant "I have no freaking clue where all that stuff is...." Not to mention the fact that this car and one other sat outside in the weather for decades. Note the condition of the interior on this particular car....nothing does that but natural sunlight! The third car lived in the trailer...along with cats....ugh!
So, 4 years back or so, there was a set of wheels on the car. No steering wheel..... I would put money on this current seller throwing them out on the market to get what he could, since the getting is good.
As for buying this car now? $15K. No more. Why so low? Because I own one, and I know how much trouble they can be! The ZF is surely rusty....if badly, simply throw it away and find another box.....as you will pay and pay and pay for each gear that is pitted and unserviceable. I heard that blocking rings (synchro rings to some) are selling for $300 now....can't imagine what gears are going for! It would be cheaper to buy a -1 Pantera box and gut it for parts....swapped into the Goose box.
Engine- rusty cylinder walls....
Body- rusted. How much work and $$$ do you sink into this? There are no clear pictures of the underside of the hatches, the bottoms of the doors, underneath the fuel tank/storage areas....
As for Provenance, I scream !!! Windows are dated mid 69. No way in hell was this an early car if these are the original pieces of glass. The brakes are not normal early brakes. If you look closely, this car has 3 piston calipers all around...not the giant aluminum versions.... This car is a "heinz 57" car.
The hatches are steel, not sure about the hood, but that is a very early feature, unlikely to have been lying around.....except for on a car that may have been sitting at Ghia for a while....as the two headlamp thing was being engineered! (If all of that is true!) THEN, it came back to the factory where it was assembled further... Dates on the intake manifold and heads/block/distributor and part number of the bellhousing would probably reveal a 302. Early cars as this would have normally had the hipo 289... or at least a very good possibility of it.
Car $15k
Body work and paint $20K (presuming there will be significant rust and metal replacement-could go higher)
Engine $5K Nothing fancy!
Transmission $10K
Wheels and tires (refinished) $5K REAL conservative here!
Refit brakes and other hydraulic systems $3K
Interior $10K May be low... everything is trashed and needs replacing!
Steering wheel $1K Probably low.....
New lens on all the lamps, new side markers $1K Could be high.
New mufflers $1K They can't have survived!
New Headers $1K Will need to be custom made...unless you buy old junk from factory parts supply....
Air cleaner and parts $1K
Just this adds up to $73K. There is margin here to still sell a now pristine restored car for more, however, I believe that labor cost is not fully reflected in the price estimates and could up the costs very quickly into the $85-90+K range.
While there are cars that have sold for much more than this, I believe them to be the reflection of what a non-stock custom restoration will do to a car.....and unconcerned and unknowing buyers. I'm talking a restoration to stock looking style. Also, you have the stigma of being a two headlamp car vs the more popular 4 headlamp version.
Since you cannot prove that this was the "first" two headlamp car, without tearing into places to prove the serial number issue, it offers little confirmation. How much more would that make the car even if it was!?
As one old timer told me, just because it's the first of a line of ugly cars, doesn't make it any more desirable or valuable!" (except for a few!) Same thing for the 1 of 1 scenario. If the car was ugly when it was new, chances are that it will be ugly still! (I AM NOT saying that 2 headlamp cars are ugly at all!!!! Just making a point about collecting.....) IF the car had a history of a celebrity owner, I think that would add more value than the conversion thing..... Being the first of one of these, could mean that you will have a hard time finding parts!!! ...as chances are, things changed a little bit as production hit the line!
I really believe that if the guy had even an ugly set of stock wheels on the car, that it would sell for the $30K range....but even that is pushing it on a car that needs a TOTAL resto and then some. Most are not going to invest $50-60K to make $5-10K or so. You would buy this car to rebuild it for yourself. Only then would it be worth the initial cost! IMHO.
Steve
Good point that this may be a car built of others.
Caution on the price, I agree. It is also presumptuous that the finished product will permit the owner from even breaking even.
The amount of hours going off something like this project is off the wall AND if there is something major concealed here, this could turn out to be just a parts car and not worth completing at any price.
Risky is an understatement. This is not child's play even for a team of professionals.
Caution on the price, I agree. It is also presumptuous that the finished product will permit the owner from even breaking even.
The amount of hours going off something like this project is off the wall AND if there is something major concealed here, this could turn out to be just a parts car and not worth completing at any price.
Risky is an understatement. This is not child's play even for a team of professionals.
Found the wheels!Goose wheels
firstpantera,
Look close at the eBay rims, the one in the upper right is different. The area towards the center of the rim from the tire valve is definitely different -- there is a missing cut edge right above the spokes. Also, the whole top looks different as well -- maybe there is a different offset to the one wheel?
I know these are rare as hen's teeth so I do understand that these are not readily available; and it is cool to find them in any condition. But damn, to pay this money for not perfect examples goes back to my first point. If you think you are going to purchase this for $45k and be O.K. financially then you're probably not living in reality. Yes, you could put all kinds of aftermarket stuff on the car from rims to aftermarket steering wheel to aftermarket seats to save money, but you'll also not draw anyone with money to purchase the car when that time comes as well. This goose is priced too high for anyone not to come out on it. My goodness, just look at the pricing of the non matching rim set!
I call this goose a FRIGHT PIG of huge proportion. Huge chance of downside, with not a very good chance of upside; especially when one can go out and buy the best for $100k for a car with all the correct parts on it; and yes, I do understand that $100k is not a trivial amount for a plaything either -- it's a lot of dough I would agree........
Mark
Look close at the eBay rims, the one in the upper right is different. The area towards the center of the rim from the tire valve is definitely different -- there is a missing cut edge right above the spokes. Also, the whole top looks different as well -- maybe there is a different offset to the one wheel?
I know these are rare as hen's teeth so I do understand that these are not readily available; and it is cool to find them in any condition. But damn, to pay this money for not perfect examples goes back to my first point. If you think you are going to purchase this for $45k and be O.K. financially then you're probably not living in reality. Yes, you could put all kinds of aftermarket stuff on the car from rims to aftermarket steering wheel to aftermarket seats to save money, but you'll also not draw anyone with money to purchase the car when that time comes as well. This goose is priced too high for anyone not to come out on it. My goodness, just look at the pricing of the non matching rim set!
I call this goose a FRIGHT PIG of huge proportion. Huge chance of downside, with not a very good chance of upside; especially when one can go out and buy the best for $100k for a car with all the correct parts on it; and yes, I do understand that $100k is not a trivial amount for a plaything either -- it's a lot of dough I would agree........
Mark
That set of wheels looks to me like a set of rears (7.5" wide — distinguished by the relatively shallow hub inset) plus one front rim (deep inset) and one "spare" wheel, which on my car seems to have an off-set hub somewhere between the two so it can be used in either location in case of a flat.
Interestingly the seller describes them as a set of 6" fronts and 8" rears, both of which are wrong.
The difference in the castings (rim details, spoke thicknesses etc.) suggest this was a "set" scrounged up from various cars and probably not produced all at the same time. Given the weird bubbling, I wonder if these may be a mix of magnesium and aluminum as well. Hard to tell without weighing them. The center discs are later repros not originals. But, if you need a set... where will you find another "this cheap"?
Mark
Interestingly the seller describes them as a set of 6" fronts and 8" rears, both of which are wrong.
The difference in the castings (rim details, spoke thicknesses etc.) suggest this was a "set" scrounged up from various cars and probably not produced all at the same time. Given the weird bubbling, I wonder if these may be a mix of magnesium and aluminum as well. Hard to tell without weighing them. The center discs are later repros not originals. But, if you need a set... where will you find another "this cheap"?
Mark
Attachments
Images (1)
From the camera angle, those 4 rims all appear to be the same width! The rim edges all appear at the same height....
Could be a mix of early and later rims, but CERTAINLY a mix!
I would bet that the bubbly rims are magnesium. They need a sealer applied before paint or powder coating!
Steve
(I hope no one is silly enough to bid on these!)
Could be a mix of early and later rims, but CERTAINLY a mix!
I would bet that the bubbly rims are magnesium. They need a sealer applied before paint or powder coating!
Steve
(I hope no one is silly enough to bid on these!)
quote:Originally posted by Mangusta:
(I hope no one is silly enough to bid on these!)
Are you kidding? These are worth like $15,000! I'm gonna hit "Buy-it-Now" NOW!
Mark
I've got a bit of recent experience with these Mangusta wheel types. What I see here is one front magnesium (early cars), and one front, two rears aluminum (later cars). It would be ridiculous to run a set like this as the weights of the two front wheels are drastically different.
The "Controversial Goose" has been sold.
Someone shelled out some strong money, this I know because my offer was double what most people here felt it was worth.
I hope the new owner does well with the car, even it needed a lot of attention, I still feel it was worth having
Someone shelled out some strong money, this I know because my offer was double what most people here felt it was worth.
I hope the new owner does well with the car, even it needed a lot of attention, I still feel it was worth having
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
FWIW I heard the car sold to a European buyer for close to 40K.
Considering the recent private sale of a 'perfect' car sold for 200K, this would be a good candidate for a similar over the top full restoration.
Considering the recent private sale of a 'perfect' car sold for 200K, this would be a good candidate for a similar over the top full restoration.
What is a fair price for a Mangusta front and rear wheel in original and good condition? What recent sales is any 'Goose enthusiast aware of as a gauge? Thanks, Dave
Dave,
You moved!
I would gladly pay you the very fair price of $300-400 per rim. Original and good condition means you invest another $300 per rim to have them annealed and refinished....
....or are you buying?!!!
Last set I heard of a set selling was in Europe and they brought insane money. Insane money....... insane seller, insane buyer....I paid less for my car....
I sold a 7" front rim (it was a spare) back to the original owner last year for the ball park of $350-400 and I hope he appreciated the deal he got. It had been separated for 20 years or so in time and thousands of miles in distance! The car passed through several hands to the current owner, but the wheel sat in the garage of the neighbor to the car's owner way back when! Until it went to the Portland swap meet one weekend......
Ciao!
Steve
You moved!
I would gladly pay you the very fair price of $300-400 per rim.
Original and good condition means you invest another $300 per rim to have them annealed and refinished........or are you buying?!!!
Last set I heard of a set selling was in Europe and they brought insane money. Insane money....... insane seller, insane buyer....I paid less for my car....
I sold a 7" front rim (it was a spare) back to the original owner last year for the ball park of $350-400 and I hope he appreciated the deal he got. It had been separated for 20 years or so in time and thousands of miles in distance! The car passed through several hands to the current owner, but the wheel sat in the garage of the neighbor to the car's owner way back when! Until it went to the Portland swap meet one weekend......
Ciao!
Steve