Cooling, cooling, cooling

New Spal fans and controller from Pantera Electronics https://www.pantera-electronics.com/rfc.htm  So far works good for me.

When you say cooling issues do you mean overheating or just running warm?  seeing temps at 200 in traffic is normal for a pantera.

PLEASE define EXACTLY the reason(s) you say you are having cooling problems.

in the last 20 years I have seen far too many owners complain about “cooling issues”, and then endless advice is presented on how to solve the problem.

WITHOUT DETERMINING THERE ....IS... A PROBLEM.

Anyone providing guidance to you without understanding the specifics of your concern is offering advice you may or may not actually need

Larry

MAP is MAP cycles in Florida.

MARINO PERNA is the owner and some years ago he was an active Pantera vendor, most commonly known for his Boyd Coddington-sourced campy reproduction wheels, which I and many other owners still believe are the best looking and the truest interpretation of the original wheels

I did not know he sold radiators but I am quite sure that is the source for what is installed in your car.

Larry

Yes, it was his radiator. He said it was a very high efficient radiator. The car runs 180 out on the highway and roads but goes above 200 when I'm in traffic and definitely when ac is run. Engine then starts to stutter and cuts off. Probably like a heat soak issue.

Would a new set to fans with that radiator help. Maybe in conjuction with a high volume water pump?

Thanks for everyone responding. I'm new and you all are a great help

@ChrisMel posted:

I just purchased a Pantera.  I know they have trouble cooling. ..

Thanks

Well, actually, this should say they "might" have trouble cooling. The cooling issues have long been diagnosed and corrections are known. Many of the "cooling" issues were self inflicted, some weren't issues at all and some were due to inadequate original design.

Self-inflicted - installing a Windsor thermostat. Inadequate air bleed.

Non-issues - temperature indication is incorrect.

Inadequate design - inadequate air flow due to small original fans.

Extensive and thorough discussions of all of these can be found doing a search on this BB. The best part is these solutions have been tested in the real world!

Your engine issue could very well be vapor lock, which is not really a coolant/cooling issue.

it could also be a $20 ignition coil that exhibits problems when heat soaked.

210°, 220° is not really an issue. And of course, unless you have installed an aftermarket gauge and matching sender there is absolutely ZERO chance that your stock gauge and sender are displaying the correct temperature, in the first place.

if you can heat soak your engine block on a high temperature day, usually when stuck in city traffic, and then park your car, walk away, and not have any boiling or gurgling noises and there is no discharge of expansion tank coolant, I don’t think there is an issue

Ford actually had a technical service bulletin advising dealers to install a resistor in the temperature gage wiring to electrically lower the temperature displayed. Like you, many owners new to a car with an actual gauge were  concerned about “high temperature”, when everything was working just as intended

please don’t start going down this rabbit hole based just on gauge readings, not supported by any real-life coolant boiling or loss issues.

Larry

Larry,

Thank you.  Is the heat from the engine then causing the vapor lock?  How do I determine that part

Troubleshooting from a distance is difficult at best, and often counterproductive.

in general heat soak is going to be fuel lines and carburetors exposed to constant heat. I suggest doing a Google search to become better informed on the issue and then follow up with a gained-wisdom inspection of your fuel system.

A better picture might be gained if we knew more about your shut down situation, to include but not be limited to what happens when trying to restart, how long a period passes before it restarts, etc  

Larry

Good advise.  I'm on it!   Thank you

Chris, start with the basics. Make sure your cooling fans are turning on at the correct temperature and blowing air through the radiator, not away from it. Bad contacts/grounds can make the fans run slowly. Make sure there’s no air in the system. Make sure you have a 351C thermostat AND the correct brass “hat” below it. Make sure your pressure tank has a good cap. Make sure your hoses and clamps are good. Are you losing coolant? Check your crank damper to see if the outer timing ring has become detached and your timing is way too advanced. If everything is correct, you won’t have a problem, even with stock fans. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Pantera’s cooling system, it just doesn’t have a lot of excess capacity. If something is wrong, it manifests itself by causing hot running or overheating. The Pantera is no different in this regard than any other mid engined car. Things like a bigger radiator, more powerful fans or a high volume water pump just give you some excess cooling capacity.

All great advice above, and a great checklist of tasks a new owner should perform.

But, are we even sure he HAS a “cooling issue”, as he initially called it in his starting post.

In a subsequent post he indicated when the temperature  gauge went over 200 the engine will “start to stutter and  turn off”.

“stutter and turn off....over 200” are the only details provided behind his term “cooling issue”

please raise your hand if that sounds like a “cooling issue”..... 🤔🤔

Larry

So let me back up and ask, how accurate are the temp guages that are original. And, what temp range is normal for these. Yes, car runs great until it starts to stutter and then dies. I notice this happens when the temp guages goes 200 and above. I may be mistakenly associating them but it happens Everytime.  So my assumption was that the cooling system was not keeping the engine within some range and heating the fuel causing it to stutter and die. It can take a good half hour to hour to restart.

The temp gauge is reasonably accurate with the correct sending unit. This has been documented ad nauseum in these forums. As Larry mentioned, your problem may have nothing to do with coolant temperature, rather, it may be that some other component is close to failure but works when it's cool. The first thing that comes to mind is the coil or perhaps the fuel pump. Next time it happens, pull a plug wire and check for spark. If that's OK, check for fuel.

When Pantera owners say “cooling/radiator issues”, we normally think engine overheating, coolant coming out of the overflow tank, hoses coming off, and the engine block temperature above (say) 250*, temperature gauge pegged.

This can happen with a marginal cooling  system (sometimes a very stock one), and the other aforementioned reasons.

Your problem sounds different - I too might lean towards the “component overheating” theory, based on your description of the symptoms.   The component most prone to something like this would be the coil.

Is your coil mounted on the firewall behind the passenger?

Another relatively easy test might be to wrap some insulating material around the fuel lineup to the carb...  maybe you are having vapor lock?

After the engine dies, and you step on (floor) the accelerator - does gas squirt out of the upper jets of the carburetor?  You have to remove the air cleaner lid to see...

Rocky

When it's gotten hot and stalled on you, does it crank easily, like when cold? Or does the starter struggle until it's left to sit for a while?

Takes a while to restart. Usually half hour or more.

... but does it turn over easily and just won’t start or does the starter have a hard time and labours to crank it over?

It turns over fine.

@lf-tp2511 posted:

Troubleshooting from a distance is difficult at best, and often counterproductive.

in general heat soak is going to be fuel lines and carburetors exposed to constant heat. I suggest doing a Google search to become better informed on the issue and then follow up with a gained-wisdom inspection of your fuel system.

A better picture might be gained if we knew more about your shut down situation, to include but not be limited to what happens when trying to restart, how long a period passes before it restarts, etc  

Larry

Could it be ChrisMel is missing a Solenoid on the Carb that keeps the idle up with the AC on when you come to a stop?

It idles fine with AC on at any speed and RPM until it gets over 200 210 on the guage. What is the normal running temp for these cars?

Let’s assume you have six owners answer the question and you get six different numbers. How does that information assist in troubleshooting your problem ?

A number is just that, just a number.

as outlined above, there was a Ford TSB outlining the installation of a resistor to change the gauge reading. Does your car have the resistor? We don’t know. If you compare your numbers to someone else’s numbers, do they have a resistor in their wiring? We don’t know. And it really doesn’t matter.

——————————
if you can park and walk away from a heat soaked engine without audible water boiling and overflowing from the expansion tank, it is very unlikely you have any cooling issues.

——————————

you have asked this question at least once before and I still, please excuse me, don’t understand why it is a pertinent bit of information🙁🙁

Larry

It is difficult to test a coil that becomes defective when overheated.

it is very easy to replace a coil

Larry

Well true it may not be the direct cause but if a reaction happens everytime, there is some relationship. I am enquiring what that relationship might be.

I drive and when temp guages goes over 200-210 I experience stuttering and the car dies.  Car will not restart until 1/2 to 1 hour later. I must assume there is heat involved because it would take that time to dissipate. I smell and see no radiator fluid escaping. It mainly happens at stop and go traffic. If ac is on it happens faster. Just like Dragnet, " Just the facts ma'am"

The temp may be a normal temp for this car. I don't know. I was just curious what that's suppose to be since they are suppose to have a 180 thermostat?

If it's normal temp, then the heat is causing some other problem i.e. coil, fuel heat issue ect. Even if it's high temp not sure how overheating would cause stuttering ect. But, that's why I have you. Or Y'all like we say to ask questions.

So here are my thought:

1) check coil for spark after it was up to 200-210. replace coil if none. Cheap. If it works, bingo

2) doesn't work insulate fuel lines more.

I thinks that's a place to start.

Your right on that. Part number even!  Thanks!

Also check the routing of the fuel lines, maybe it has been modified and is going too close to hot elements such as the exhaust headers.

Do you have an original ignition with points or an electronic modified ignition? If electronic, where is the ECU which can also be heat sensitive?

Chris,

It seems to me, your problem is more likely due to driving time than temperature and my first guess is the ignition coil. It's pretty typical of a bad coil to work OK for a certain period of time, then crap out as it gets hot. Do you happen to have an MSD CD ignition box? If so, that could also be the culprit. Like I said in a previous posting, when the car won't start, pull a plug wire and see if you have ignition. 

Let me add here, although it doesn't create overheating, there are only two temperture senders that are accurate. They are the Ford versions, stamped either Autolite or Motorcraft.

ALL OTHER AFTERMARKET senders are reading 20 degrees hotter then the actual temperature and if you have the 230 gauge, it can peg the dial inaccurately. It doesn't seem to matter who made them? It seems to be an engineering mistake of setting the sender with the wrong data.

All things considered with "cooling issues", this just complicates things and sets you off looking in the wrong places.

Thanks for the info!  I'll check that too.

From Pantera Place: http://www.panteraplace.com/page205.htm

Do you have an update on this issue for all of us that have tried to help you?

Larry

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your help.  Here is the update. Carb and fan combo.  They are original fans that had been rebuilt maybe 10 years ago. The left one was not running at all. The right was on its way out. So they have been replaced with Spal.  The carb was in poor condition. Whoever had the car prior, had bent the lingages to do whatever they were trying to do. It was a Holley 1460. Changed it to the Edelbrock.  I haven't driven it yet. Should get it back this week and I'll let you know. But yeah, probably a combination thing.

Hi Chris,

Hopefully the corrections/modifications you made will help, but I'm concerned your real problem is vapor lock.  Get one of those Dust Off aerosol cans of "keyboard duster" (or whatever they call it) used to blow dust out of a computer keyboard.

If the car sputters and dies again and exhibits the same symptoms in which it won't start, shake up the can of keyboard duster, turn it upside down, and spray your fuel pump, fuel line, and carb bowls and base.  This will instantly chill all those components and end a vapor lock.  You should then be able to restart your car. 

If that doesn't solve the problem, spray your coil to cool it down and see if it starts then.

Good luck, and keep us posted on what happens. 

I do think your right. There probably is some vapor lock occuring as well. Looking into that. After running it and shutting it down, it takes about 20 min to restart easy unless you hold the peddle down for 20 sec. Has a new coil as well.

Update on cooling, cooling, cooling.

Turned out to be several things. Usually is. Tough to point the finger at exactly on thing. But, seems to have totally solved the problem.

Carburator: It was junk. Holly 1460. Someone had bent the linkages, used different bolts and nuts in the linkages, messed with the chokes and basically locked the secondary open all the time. Plus, it was old and needed a rebuild. I replaced it with a Edelbrock Performer. Also reworked the fuel line a little.

Radiator fans: One was not working and the others output was minimal. They were replaced with 2 Spal fans and I closed off the vents in the hood. All the sensors were checked and including the temp guage. 90 + day with the AC running it won't reach 200 in heavy traffic.

Coil: I replaced it without checking it cause it cost more in time ect that a new coil. Also found a wire that went to the coil that was broken in halfish. Coil was not getting enough power to the plugs. Replaced plugs also because the carb issue fouled them beyond use.

Car runs awesome! 43500 original miles. Thank you for everyones help.