distributor install

Just make SURE the engine is at TDC on the COMPRESSION stroke NOT the exhaust!...Mark

Yeah, thanks. I think I got that covered. I watched the rockers, one down, then up, then the other down and up (so both valves closed = BDC) then turned motor over 180 degrees, felt for the compression with my finger in the hole.

I'll double/triple check that again anyways, but I'm wanting to know about the procedure for setting my timing points at the balancer and the distributor install/rotor position.

It's not rocket science, it's just the last time I did this was on my 68 GTO maybe 1985?

Back then we just went for it, found out the hard way when your 180 off, with THE biggest backfires ever! lol

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Just make SURE the engine is at TDC on the COMPRESSION stroke NOT the exhaust!...Mark

Hello Mike; Not to be a "Party Pooper" but there is NO time that both valves are CLOSED at (BDC).

ONLY time BOTH valves are CLOSED is at TDC!...Mark

Well, there's the time where one rocker pushes a valve down and up, and then the other rocker immediately pushes the other valve down and back up (yes, there's a bit of overlap there, you are correct-this is BDC) but then 180 degrees from there is TDC.

Here's an informative article, discussing "overlap/valve timing" & how the exhaust valve/s OPEN prior to BDC on the Power stroke...Mark

If engine performance is your thing, or you are an automotive hobbyist, then you are most likely not afraid of swapping cams in your engine. However, the trick to making your car faster is not just replacing stock engine parts with performance engine part, but replacing it with the right performance parts. This is where your understanding of valve timing becomes crucial in selecting the proper cam. To help you better understand valve timing, this page will cover blow down overlap and the ram effect.

BLOW DOWN
On the power stroke, the combustion pushes the piston down in the cylinder. During this stroke, it is necessary to open the exhaust valve before the piston gets to the bottom of the cylinder. This will allow the excess pressure in the cylinder to "vent out" just before the piston reaches the bottom of the stroke. The term "Blow Down" is used to describe this event.

Timing the exhaust valve in this manner assures no pressure is left in the cylinder to push against the piston on the exhaust stroke. Otherwise, there could be 20 PSI (or so) pushing against the piston as it starts up the cylinder. This would require some of your engine's power just to push the exhaust out of the cylinder!

High RPM engines need to have the exhaust valve open sooner so the pressure has a better chance to exit the cylinder. However, at lower RPMs, opening the exhaust valve too soon means you didn't take full advantage of the power stroke. The Engine Analyzer Pro software is a good program to use for experimenting with blow down because you can quickly try different valve timing and see the cylinder pressure on your computer screen. That way you are better informed before you buy those performance engine parts.

OVERLAP
As the engine cycles, there is a period when both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. This valve timing is known as "overlap." Think of this as the exhaust and intake cycles overlapping each other.

The valves are timed so the intake valve opens slightly before the piston reaches top dead center (TDC) on the exhaust stroke. Likewise, the exhaust valve is timed to close just after the piston starts down on the intake stroke.

The objective of overlap is for the exhaust gas which is already running down the exhaust pipe, to create an effect like a siphon and pull a fresh mixture into the combustion chamber. Otherwise, a small amount of burned gasses would remain in the combustion chamber and dilute the incoming mixture on the intake stroke. This valve timing is a product of the cam's duration and separation specs. For more information on these cam specs see the Cam Specs & Effects page.

The science involved with overlap is quite complex. Pressures, runner lengths, temperature, and many other aspects influence how well the overlap effect works. The advantage to using software like Engine Analyzer Pro is that the software does all of the calculations for you. Simply enter a different duration and separation in the computer and the software will show you whether or not to expect more power from your engine.

RAM EFFECT
When the piston reaches the bottom of the cylinder on the intake stroke, the intake valve doesn't immediately close at this point. The intake valve remains open even though the piston is starting up the cylinder on the compression stroke. The expression "ram effect" is used to describe this event.

Timing the intake valve in this manner allows an additional amount of fresh mixture to be rammed into the cylinder. The effect is very similar to water hammer in plumbing. What happens is that during the intake stroke the fresh mixture is running fast enough down the intake manifold and into the cylinder that it can not instantly stop when the piston stops at the bottom of the intake stroke. Just like the water hammer effect, the incoming mixture is rammed into the cylinder even though the piston may be starting up on the compression stroke.

High RPM engines can have the intake valve remain open longer to take advantage of this ram effect. However, at low RPMs, the ram effect is not strong enough and the piston will start to push the fresh mixture back out of the cylinder. Of all the different valve timing effects, this one can have the greatest impact on your engine's performance. By advancing or retarding the cam or trying a different camshaft in the Engine Shop or the Engine Analyzer Pro software, you will know if you have the correct valve timing to take advantage of the ram effect. Don't guess which performance engine parts to get, use our software and get the right parts the first time.

Thanks for the info.

I already had kind of a base knowledge of all that, but you explained it very well.

On my engine, it ran like a bat out of hell, just circumstances and bad luck and omissions of some important facts have resulted in my now spending extra thousands getting the car back running, but it ran well before it stopped, and nothing has changed, so I expect once I get it all back together that it should run as it did before. I found a magazine where Roger dynoed this engine to over 8000 rpm, I know it's a runner.

I;ve still got a hundred small things, and a few big things to do, but we are very close to getting hr back running and tearing up the road again.

My novice experience: You need to apply a bit of Kentucky windage when installing the dizzy. As the dizzy gear meshes with the cam gear, the shaft (rotor) turns as the dizzy seats. If you want it to be on the #1 plug when seated, you have to point the rotor ahead of that distributor cap location so it will rotate to the right position when fully seated. Sometimes it takes a few tries. Before removal I had marked my dizzy flange and the block so I could install it back in the original place so the leads and vacuum advance stuff was facing the right direction. The smart guys on this forum probably have a slicker way of doing that.

Hello Robbie; The "Kentucky Windage" line, made me chuckle.

Wonder how many know that phrase?

Pantera Doug thinks it's what a guy from Kentucky does after eating too much Chili! .

Excellent advice by the way, as the spiral cut distributor gear drops down further into meshing with the cam gear the initial point of contact/gear engagement will change thus altering the final positioning point with which the rotor faces.

Think of a clock...in order for the rotor to finish pointing at 1 a clock, the rotor would have to initially be pointed at 11 a clock when the distributor gear is first into contact with the camshaft gear

Mike, some comments. Remember that the crank turns twice as fast as the cam. So at TDC you either have both valves closed and the one just having closed is the INTAKE. Or if you're not on the compression stroke, you'll still be at TDC, but both valves very slightly open and the valve closing is the EXHAUST. Forget about BDC

About the distributor, it doesn't matter where the rotor is pointing, as long as the cap has cyl 1 wire at that position. I always try to have rotor pointing forwards, just to make it easier to remember. Usually I start with the distributor body, because it can't with vacuum advance be turned in all directions, you have to find a position that gives room for turning a bit in each direction to adjust initial timing, then you install the cap, some can go on two ways, most only one way, then the wires (so as few as possible has to cross). When all that is done, then you know where the rotor has to point.

10-12 degrees is a good conservative number to start with.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Robbie; The "Kentucky Windage" line, made me chuckle.

Wonder how many know that phrase?

Pantera Doug thinks it's what a guy from Kentucky does after eating too much Chili! .

I learn sumtin' newz almost everyday? Odd though that 'fornians would know 'bout Kentucky? Where is that anyway? Is it a real place?

I do know that the Third Reich attempted to bottle the methane from human waste.

Of equal importance I'd 'recon?

Mike
You say you have a new distributor. I believe you have a roller cam that probably needs a steel or bronze gear. You need to be sure the distributor gear is correct for the cam or you will be doing this all over again very soon. Most if not all new or rebuilt distributors will have a cast iron gear that will not work with a steel cam and will ruin the cam gear most likely.
Good luck.
Forest

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:..\
I learn sumtin' newz almost everyday?...

While I think I have learned a LOT automotive related, there has been some eyeopening about other things.

It took me a while and google to get the "brown sugar" / LSD comment, but I still haven't figgered out the "fridge" referance

while "Kentucky Windage" is meant to be derugatory, it is actually implies impressive knowledge in the application of advance physics and mathmatics with out the add of devices

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:..\
I learn sumtin' newz almost everyday?...

While I think I have learned a LOT automotive related, there has been some eyeopening about other things.

It took me a while and google to get the "brown sugar" / LSD comment, but I still haven't figgered out the "fridge" referance

while "Kentucky Windage" is implied to be derugatory, it is actually implies impressive knowledge in the application of advance physics and mathmatics with out the add of devices

It was thought that LSD was stored on sugar cubes in the '60s. It was joked that if one was let's say, "one of the beautiful people" like Dick Shaun's character in "The Producers", that it might be significant to inform house guests that sugar cubes in the refrigerator, a.k.a., the "'frige", were not kept there to sweeten one's coffee?

...AND that hopefully "unknowing" people didn't have a "sweet tooth" in fear that if they took two or three sugar cubes in their coffee that they possibly may NEVER "come down"?



It was also "joked" in "Where the Buffalo Roam", by Hunter Thompson, that "Richard Nixon was seen doing cannonballs in the hotel swimming pool with "stewardess'" and that it was probably due to the fact that he took a "hit" of "brown LSD sugar cubes".

It was "rumored" that if left in the sun to turn "brown", the LSD had extra psychedelic "enhancements".


As far as being derogatory towards Kentucky, not necessarily so.



Now having said that, and acknowledging the fact that fortunately or unfortunately I am a native NY'er.

Snicker if you will, but in fact some of these sarcastic remarks that I make are in fact intended to be self defecating in a sense to give others a laugh, even if it is at my expense? Also attempting to apply the sarcasm in a manor of Hunter Thompson without his grace or license often gets me in deep do-do too. I'm in it to begin with most of the time so I figure what the heck?


There was in fact once a "weighted map of the world" published by the New Yorker magazine which showed NYC as approximately 99% of the world and the rest of the entire world at 1%.

It was intended as again, a self-defecating joke about NYC and the New Yorker magazine itself.



Now for lack of a better term, there is a friction, between east coast "guys" and "west" coast guys.

Most of the time it is just stated as "the right coast, and the wrong coast", and that's the end of it.


Now having said all of this, and admitting it all, that it is in fact INTENDED as a joke where people can laugh or even laugh at me, sometimes there are just bad jokes made.


IF that is the case, then I offer my apologies. I am sorry Mrs.Teacher, I will never speak in your class again.

The distributor drive gear is the same as the one that was on the old diz, plus, there were 2 or 3 extra distributor gears and pins that came with the bag of goodies I got with the car from Roger. All are identical in every way.

I think if one were made from a different material, or cast and not steel, I'd notice the difference.

Also, the old cam gear that came out showed perfect wear. I believe they were all Mallory gears.

quote:

some of these sarcastic remarks that I make are in fact intended to be self defecating in a sense to give others a laugh

Trust me. They do. Perhaps more so than you'd intended.

FWIW, I believe the term you're looking for is "self-deprecating". Defecating is something entirely different.

quote:

Originally posted by MarsRed:

quote:

some of these sarcastic remarks that I make are in fact intended to be self defecating in a sense to give others a laugh

Trust me. They do. Perhaps more so than you'd intended.

FWIW, I believe the term you're looking for is "self-deprecating". Defecating is something entirely different.

Perhaps, but perhaps that's even a Freudian slip that is pretty funny?

I can't talk about this here anymore. I promised Mrs. Teacher I'd be quite and keep my self amusing quips to myself?

Actually I think self defecating seems more appropriate to me? It's funnier?

Congrats PanteraDoug, you did it again, you managed to totally derail a thread, and turn it into facebook for old geezers. (The "congrats" was meant as sarcasm)

George, are you reading this? Could we maybe agree there's a place for all these ramblings and funny and quaint inputs, and stories from the old days etc., and that place is Alejandro's Neighbourhood Pub, the Socializing Forums. And that the others, or at least the Technical Forum is kept free from that?

When I from time to time post a question on the Technical Forums, I'd like technical advice, and not see my thread being hi-jacked by inputs that have nothing to do with my problem.

I've been on this Forum for almost a decade, and IMHO it's gone seriously downhill in the last year, due to the above.

?

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:

I've been on this Forum for almost a decade, and IMHO it's gone seriously downhill in the last year, due to the above.

There ya' go slick. Luv ya 2.

What's the line from Hamlet?

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
George, are you reading this? Could we maybe agree there's a place for all these ramblings and funny and quaint inputs, and stories from the old days etc., and that place is Alejandro's Neighbourhood Pub, the Socializing Forums. And that the others, or at least the Technical Forum is kept free from that?

When I from time to time post a question on the Technical Forums, I'd like technical advice, and not see my thread being hi-jacked by inputs that have nothing to do with my problem.

I've been on this Forum for almost a decade, and IMHO it's gone seriously downhill in the last year, due to the above.

?

Hello Mikael; I can understand your concerns & your laments & can appreciate your viewpoint/s.

In the strictest sense of the word, YES, you are right!

There are those in this forum ( myself included) that possibly believe that topics of all manners & forums are tangential, and as such possess the ability/ies to venture/explore beyond the initial specific topic.

I personally both enjoy & benefit from a more shall me say (relaxed discussion) than from a regimented one.

I believe that Mike was given very sound advice, even though "Kentucky windage", "brown sugar cubes", "Tricky Dick on LSD", etc,etc,etc, PLUS! people were educated in that there is a large chasm of difference between "self defecating" & "self deprecating"...( well maybe NOT Doug ). ALL of this included in a very informed ( In my opinion) discussion of distributor installation.

I benefited from your post/s Mikael in that I like your idea of positioning the cap for the least amount of wires not crossing over themselves

Regulating ALL external "fringe" posts from the various forums would essentially turn Pantera International into a "Sterile Environment" VOID of any nuances that I believe ADD to the overall "Good Natured Feel" of this website.

Some people go to work with a tie that NEVER gets loosened all day, whilst others go to work in Cargo shorts, as long as everybody contributes to the overall benefit of the task at hand, then I believe the pool is OPEN for everyone to jump in!!!...just provided that Doug DOES NOT show up wearing his European Speedo! ...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
...just provided that Doug DOES NOT show up wearing his European Speedo! ...Mark

Now that would be self deprecating and anyway... HEY! I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK!

You know what I say to this whole thing? "Hey Froggie, pluck your magic twanger!"



(sssh you're going to get me sent to the Principle's Office...again)

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
...just provided that Doug DOES NOT show up wearing his European Speedo! ...Mark

Now that would be self deprecating and anyway... HEY! I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK!

You know what I say to this whole thing? "Hey Froggie, pluck your magic twanger!"



(sssh you're going to get me sent to the Principle's Office...again)

I know it might come across as being falsely perceived as "Harsh" in your final flickering, fading light of your participation on Pantera International...BUT!...you are mixing European slang interchangeably...

As "Froggie" would be a disparaging term for a person of French ancestry, where as "twanger" would be a British slang term for a certain part of male genitalia.

So your painfully inept attempt at insulting should have read as follows...

"Hey Froggie, pluck your magic bite!"

I hope this helps as the portal to Pantera International...."Hits your junk in the trunk on your way out the door!!!...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
...just provided that Doug DOES NOT show up wearing his European Speedo! ...Mark

Now that would be self deprecating and anyway... HEY! I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK!

You know what I say to this whole thing? "Hey Froggie, pluck your magic twanger!"



(sssh you're going to get me sent to the Principle's Office...again)

I know it might come across as being falsely perceived as "Harsh" in your final flickering, fading light of your participation on Pantera International...BUT!...you are mixing European slang interchangeably...

As "Froggie" would be a disparaging term for a person of French ancestry, where as "twanger" would be a British slang term for a certain part of male genitalia.

So your painfully inept attempt at insulting should have read as follows...

"Hey Froggie, pluck your magic bite!"

I hope this helps as the portal to Pantera International...."Hits your junk in the trunk on your way out the door!!!...Mark

Froggie was a character on a kids TV show in the '50s hosted by Andy Devine.

Froggie was a nasty little sob that got away with tons on innuendos that went right over the heads of everyone including the network censors.

When Andy wanted him to leave he would say, "pluck your magic twanger Froggie", and he would disappear in a cloud of smoke.

I mentioned it since I thought many of the "old guys" here would remember it?

The Froggie quote is a HUGE age giveaway .. like Tige the dog in the Buster Brown shoe gang. No one that age should be allowed to drive a Pantera.

Guys, guys, I flunked geometry, so all this shit you guys are saying is way over my head anyways.
I never messed with LSD, just the easy stuff, speed, coke, heroin, ketamine, mushrooms, and all the cool pills available, but still, none of that ever helped me pass geometry in school. Geography for that matter either lol. Just kidding, I was an A student in real life..

I made huge progress on the car today.

Oil is in, frame brace is on, the car is ready for the distributor install and coolant fill. Then a quick turnover to get an oil pressure register, plugs and wires on, and she should be ready to fire up.

The sweet prince is kneeling down to give the saving kiss to Snow White. Soon she'll be awake, but in my version of this fairy tail, snow White then gets taken into the cabin, all the dwarfs and forest animals kicked out, and we have a long self deprecating session, and then we go on to live happily ever after.

I will refrain from self defecating into the cooling system, although probably never tried, it might actually work similar to "Stops Leaks" lol.

See how I swiftly brought this thread back on topic. Take notes.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
The Froggie quote is a HUGE age giveaway .. like Tige the dog in the Buster Brown shoe gang. No one that age should be allowed to drive a Pantera.

HEY Robbie!!; You must have NEVER seen Doug's Pantera...it is wheel chair accessible ...Mark !

Hello Mike; In ALL seriousness...Congratulations On ALL the forward progress being made, sometimes the greatest accomplishments are those attached with the most difficulties/hardships!

I'd enjoy as I believe others would of a video of the initial startup...Mark

I'll try and get a first startup vid.

If not first, I'll post a vid of startup after shes timed and starting like before, which was always with an impressive VROOM!

I expect time timing to be close enough for startup, but it might not be all perfect, until timed right, the first startup might be rough. Who knows.

I'll post vids though.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
The Froggie quote is a HUGE age giveaway .. like Tige the dog in the Buster Brown shoe gang. No one that age should be allowed to drive a Pantera.

My grandfather told me about the show, "Andy's Gang". He used to watch it right after he watered the horses. Everything was new to him. They had just got electricity for the first time, and an indoor bath room.

He kept getting yelled at because he kept flushing the toilet and watching the water go down?

"Snow White"? I thought you didn't know about drugs?

I've been told Snow White is one of THE best movies to watch on acid.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
The Froggie quote is a HUGE age giveaway .. like Tige the dog in the Buster Brown shoe gang. No one that age should be allowed to drive a Pantera.

My grandfather told me about the show, "Andy's Gang". He used to watch it right after he watered the horses. Everything was new to him. They had just got electricity for the first time, and an indoor bath room.

He kept getting yelled at because he kept flushing the toilet and watching the water go down?

"Snow White"? I thought you didn't know about drugs?

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I've been told Snow White is one of THE best movies to watch on acid.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
The Froggie quote is a HUGE age giveaway .. like Tige the dog in the Buster Brown shoe gang. No one that age should be allowed to drive a Pantera.

My grandfather told me about the show, "Andy's Gang". He used to watch it right after he watered the horses. Everything was new to him. They had just got electricity for the first time, and an indoor bath room.

He kept getting yelled at because he kept flushing the toilet and watching the water go down?

"Snow White"? I thought you didn't know about drugs?

Nah, you didn't read enough, that's not what it means. Ask a narc. He'll explain it...if he can remember the '70s that is.

OK, I bought a new identical distributor from Mallory. Checked, and rechecked that the gear was compatible with the cam.

The new diz has a much larger (and I assume) stronger roll pin holding the drive gear in place.

Do you think it's still a good idea to try and drive a piece of piano wire through the larger roll pin to help make it stronger? Or should I just toss the thing in as it comes out of the box and enjoy?

Leave it alone. Just install it. Mallory has already made the changes necessary.

quote:

Leave it alone. Just install it. Mallory has already made the changes necessary.

I was thinking ...Knowing of Mike's "luck" the piano wire would come loose, freeze up the oil pump & be back at step 1.

I also agree with the others in regards..."leave it alone"...Mark

Too Late!

I already tapped a piece of wire through the roll pin. If it falls out and eats up the motor, that one will be on me.

Otherwise, I've been waiting for supervision on a few of the more technical things like the distributor install, but I could only wait so long. So today I went for it and got it installed, got the plug wires all plugged in, got the wiring all plugged back in. It should be all ready to fire up when the time comes.

Plugs are out, because I want to develop oil pressure before putting any more loads on the engine since it's been dry cranked while we were troubleshooting the problem.

I've been told to not worry about that at all, but that's just me, I'd rather spend the extra couple minutes just for my own piece of mind.

This will also give us the chance to double/triple check that I've properly set everything at TDC, and didn't screw that part up. It'll be easy while we're cranking for oil pressure to check for the compressions stroke.

I'm very sure it's properly set at TDC, but I still want to double check.

Measure twice, cut once.

what size wire did you use?

I actually used an allen wrench that I turned down by hand with a grinder. It tapped in with the perfect feel, didn't fight too much, but didn't just tap in easily either.

It ain't coming out of there, no way no how.