Doctors vs. Guns

quote:

Originally posted by Husker:
Mark, 294 million gun owners? As of the last census the population of the US was about 300 million. Only 6 million people don't own guns? So damn near every man, woman and child in the US owns a gun? I think that number may be off just a tad.

You are making the wrong assumption. (see my previous quote by Mark Twain) The statistic doesn't state that 9 people out of 10 own guns, it says there are 90 guns per 100 people. I own 5 cars so I'm making up for four poor sods who can't afford to screw the environment themselves (without my wretched excess), and in the process I skew the stats to make it look like we all own one car — statistically speaking.

In actuality, the most recent stats on gun ownership by household for the USA and Canada (that I could find) place the percentages at: USA 39% and Canada 29%. The actual deaths by firearms (all causes incl. accidental, suicide and homicide) were: USA 14 per 100,000 people and Canada: 4 per 100,000 people (see my previous comment about freezing our nuts off).

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Mark Twain said it best:

"There are three types of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."



And continuing on with statistics...

Wikipedia states that gun ownership per capita in the USA is 90 per 100 residents. In Canada the number is 31.5 per 100 (same rate as Sweden). But even so we do tend to use them with much less frequency up here. It's hard to aim properly when you're freezing your nuts off.

I love these threads.

Mark

Mr. Clemens' quote certainly applies to anything pulled from Wikipedia as a source.

quote:

Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
Mr. Clemens' quote certainly applies to anything pulled from Wikipedia as a source.

Normally I would agree, but in this particular case, those stats do appear to come from a legitimate source.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org...s/about/mission.html

and were reported in major international media:

http://www.reuters.com/article...dUSL2834893820070828

I love this argument and could take either side. In my wonderful world of advertising, we don’t bother with the truth, since we can always find statistics needed to support any particular point of view we want to present.

Here are a few interesting ones:

2.2% of all U.S. respondents reported that they were the victim of at least one assault or threat with a gun in the last five years. In England and Wales, that number was 2.4%. Gun ownership is a legal requirement in Switzerland. Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. So watch out for drive by shootings next time you’re in Zurich.

As for doctors, here’s a good one…

“What’s the difference between doctors and God?”
“God doesn’t think he’s a doctor.”

Anyhow, if you knew as many doctors as I do, then you too would rather spend time with gun owners than doctors. That is, until you get shot, at which time your criteria changes quickly.

much of the unlawful firearm violence is caused by repeat offenders who either slip through the legal system or those who get out of prison and repeat offend. a decade or so ago, baltimore started a program where when applicable gun offenses were federally prosecuted and some real real serious jail times were handed out. guess what folks, gun violence plummeted.

chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and it has one of the highest gun violence rates in the country, makes sense huh? remember when florida first passed their concealed carry law, the critics screamed that florida strreets would be running red in blood. actually what occurred was just the opposite, crime went down and has stayed down.

a gun is just a tool, it allows a weaker defender to overcome a stronger attacker. i am a firm believer that for family/home/self defense there is no better equalizer than a competent individual armed and educated how to utilize a firearm. in a home invasion situation, there is no better tool, if you think your cell phone will save you in an emergency situation, you will probably become a victim and not a survivor.

what is never reported is how many times just the appearance of a firearm will stop the commisssion of a crime. many times (especially in jurisdictions like chicago) the intended victim will never report the stopped crime, who wants to deal with the beaurocratic (sp?) aftermath?

concealed carry for law abiding citizens, long jail terms for evildoers, and if you really want to get into placing blame for gun violence, try illegal immigrant drug dealing gangs.

nazgul

As Nazgul has stated gun is a tool but even in a home invasion situation. Two years ago an individuals home was raided by the police on Montreal's south shore. Unfortunately the cops did not check the fact that the individual had a permit for a 357 magnum (permit might have been lapsed). Anyways he shot thru his bedroom door and killed a cop. Still, he got charged and got a couple years inside. As David stated arguments for either side could be found. I just find it terrible than in 2009 we are such a violent/scared society. That energy/drive/money could be used for such better cause. A gun is for hunting game or target practice at the range. Cops should learn to use in discretion(aim to wound not kill) along with taisers. We are not in a movie looking to ratings.
As for car raids we'll end-up with side flame thrower like they have in South America?
Denis

Its not always doctors verses guns; some doctors were known for using guns.

This one's name is Holliday

"Butte, Montana - November 5, 2007



Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11-year-old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.



It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.



Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.



Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.



When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.



It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45-caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest.



Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news........an 11-year-old girl, properly trained, defended her home, and herself......against two murderous, illegal immigrants ...... and she wins, she is still alive."


Just to add a little fuel to the fire........


Mark-Why not quote those two sources first instead of Wikipedia? An unreliable source, even part of the time, is still an unreliable source.

Speaking of unrealiable sources....the story you just told is an urban myth

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

If you want reliability... Use a revolver.

to denis c, you state in effect that cops should learn to shoot to wound, unfortunately once a firearm is displayed, the decision has already been made that deadly force is appropriate in the situation. "shoot to wound" is not practical and does not work, stress levels are way too high, a dynamic situation exists, the distances and time frames involved do not lend themselves to pinpoint body shot placement, a bullet is not magic-it does not stop an offender immediately-it just disrupts part of their biology, the rest of the offender keeps going (it ain't like "in the movies"). there are many after incident reports of evil-doers soaking up bullets and they are just like the energizer bunny, they just keep going. for an example look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout , one of the offenders was shot 6 times, the other offender 12 times before they were stopped.

a very controversial topic we are on, however i think it is safe to say that a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen is an active threat to no one, whereas even a broomstick in the hands of an aggressor is a deadly weapon.

I will say this hot topic has been very docile. I feel that with all of the hoopla that is associated with guns it is rather blown out of proporation.
It is a right to keep and bear arms, and until the constitution is changed this will keep going.. I do think that all of these new laws to limit the legal gun owner is totally bogus. The criminal could care less about the law and more laws will not solve that. Limiting a law abiding citizen will not stop the criminal.
Maybe its going to be like Germany prior to the war where guns were banned by Hitler and the new wave of politicians can brag about how safe they have made this country???
The extreme political base is still trying to limit our rights since they cant get the Constitution changed. Such as this bill which WILL make law abiding citzens criminals.
HR-45
Jeff

Like they say "guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Each side of the argument will draw on statistics that support their view. I grew up in the UK where it was (and still is) almost impossible to own a hand gun, our cops were not armed...that is until the criminals got guns and the cops found out a wooden truncheon doesn't stop a bullet. The UK vs. US stats that David B quoted tell the story, legal gun ownership in the hand of law abiding citizens is a deterrent.

Personally I never liked guns, but as I get older the World around me is changing, there are people that believe they can take what I have worked hard for and with an economy in the toilet the numbers of those people is growing. So, as much as I hate guns I find myself seriously considering gun ownership.

Julian

I don't think the Doctor gun argument is relevant in any regard.

We were part of the wide spread power outage. We ran the house on generator for more then 6 days. Generators were like gold here. The sign on my generator said "If you try to steel this generator you better have gotten all my guns first!"

Our society has lost it's way. We have pulled religion from our schools and not replaced it with any sort of values. We teach what you can get away with and what the punishment is if you get caught. This I believe is the core of our problems in society. You cannot legislate values!

With our government ruining our economy to re-invent itself overnight, desperation in our society will only grow by leaps and bounds.

You will never remove the illegal guns from society and the more restrictions you put on legal guns the worse off we are.

No one is getting my guns unless you pry it from...well you know!

Damn, I told myself I wasn't going to talk about anything here but cars!

quote:

We have pulled religion from our schools and not replaced it with any sort of values.... You cannot legislate values!

I am seriously biting my tongue here. Anyone want to divert this thread to THIS subject?


Larry

I am not suggesting we need religion in schools, only that it did represent some sort of values in our upbringing which does not exist today.

quote:

some sort of values in our upbringing which does not exist today.

It is commonly accepted that most character traits are established prior to a child's first entry into the school system.

Thus, the family is tasked with instilling those traits; through at-home example and, if so chosen, through exposure to that family's religious tenets.

This is how it always has been, and how it should be, IMHO.

However, there does exist a nationally expansive program of character development used by many school districts.

I certainly can't speak for the Indiana school district in which you reside, but here in Fresno, CA, the Fresno Unified School District (which is the 35th largest in the nation) my children were always exposed to this program - Character Counts.

This program is based on the Six Pillars of Character:

trustworthiness
respect
responsibility
fairness
caring
citizenship

They seem to be a pretty good foundation for developing a good set of character traits.

Over the years, I regularly saw these six points posted in my child's classrooms.

My wife is a middle school teacher. This program is active on her campus. Her school has a long established program of rewarding students' good behavior (returning a found item, helping a new student,etc.) with eligible students being placed in weekly drawings giving them snack bar freebies, movie tickets, etc.

To say public schools no longer teach values just isn't the case. They do, however, no longer teach values based on any one group's religious tenets. That too, IMHO, is also as it should be.


See - www.charactercounts.org for more information.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
Speaking of unrealiable sources....the story you just told is an urban myth

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

It was never represented either way.....just as fuel for the fire. As such it was very reliable.......

Here is a tongue-in-cheek video on Youtube thats kind of funny but shows how rediculous it is to make guns illegal. Criminals will always have guns. Just look at those countrys that have taken away thier citizens guns. Crimes are still being commited with guns, the only difference is that all of the victims are unarmed.

The new administrations view of gun controll would make keeping a gun in a useable state for self defence impossable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8
Rick

Here's another one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L3kMuN8sjk