Edelbrock heads

Sorry I misspelled Edelbrock, I'm not too happy right now...

Aluminum heads on an iron block are always a risk. You must make sure that you use the Felpro "blue" teflon coated head gaskets.

These are especially made for this application. They in fact float between the head and the block since the aluminum and iron expand at different rates, the head gasket cannot be "glued" to either.

The torque of the bolts is critical to this since only a prescribed amount of torque will work. It is in fact possible to put too much torque to the head bolts and thus prevent the head gasket to float properly. This in essence makes the head gasket "wrinkle" in order to move and creates in most cases a dribble of coolant leak. Sound familiar?

Also, I have found that when you make this swap to aluminum heads that it is important to install new head bolts, and torque them in three stages, in the pattern prescribed in the shop manual. DON'T OVER TORQUE THEM.

Until gaskets like the Felpro came along it was next to impossible to keep these combinations from leaking.

I'm running the Edelbrock heads. I used these on with the Edelbrocks and another motor with iron heads and have had absolutely no problems:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-351C-351M-400-045-R...6QQitemZ190242495382

I used the Felpro, new ARP bolts and torqued in three passes in the Edelbrock pattern. They might be over torqued as you said Doug causing the "dribble". Dennis did you use Felpro gaskets? How did you torque the bolts and to what torque? How about the rocker adjustment?

Thanks for the input guys ...

74 LOOKER,
PanteraDoug is right but, if you retorqued & got a 1/4 turn on your 1/2" bolts you pulled down the head another .019" minus stretch of the bolt.This is obtained by knowing your head bolts are 1/2" x 13 threads, you take the 13 threads and divide into 1 and get .076" a turn, then because you only got a 1/4 turn you divide .076"/4 and you get .019" So this is not so bad. look at some info on the total float of a Hydralic lifter, I believe total float in a lifter is approx .125". The preload is set at about 1/2 or around .060".
I think your OK were this stands.
By the way I work/machine aluminum, compared to iron it's like spagetti,not that rigid, look at an air plane wing flex.

What about the leak, did it stop? If not short of a head removal there are some wonderful sealants I have used that may work, I have used them on my Imports, Iron to aluminum heads and ran 100,000 mi more on the engine's. Just a thought. Anyway's good luck.

Mark

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=hydraulicLifters

Nice tip Dennis. I have to try a set.

Mark,

I had to work today and could not put the rocker arms on yet. I'm not looking lforward to removing the bulkhead again to crank the engine by hand, to adj the valves. Based on your math I think that I should be ok. I was also thinking of a sealant to avoid head removal. I was thinking that I should take the original heads down for a rebuild just in case. If I did take off the Edelbrock heads would I just replace the gasket or get them checked for straightnes and a possible milling? Wow that may decrease the chamber from 60cc to ??, Now I have an octane problem.

Checking for straight is very easy.
First you need something straight, a precision/ground scale or ruler, a machine table that has been machined etc. If you have a straight edge you stand it on edge and with a flash light behind see if any of the light is visable on the edge. Move it around and check all area's, no light your flat, if your on a machined surface you can feeler guage around the edges and finally if the machined surface is large enough you can use an indicator to run up and down the head on the sealing surface and do a parallel check.
If you machine you will probably want to match the heads, you'll also find when you cc your heads there are some varience in the chambers.


Mark

Because everyone is taking a shot in the dark here the safest bet would to take the leaky head off, check it for straitness and PRESSURE TEST IT.

These days every head may not be pressure tested for porosity, Edelbrock included, forget about x-raying them for cracks from stress risers.

It would be unusual but it is not impossible that it is cracked or porous. When you have excluded all the obvious, what ever remains, no matter how seemingly unimportant, must in fact be the answer. (Thank you Sherlock)

I don't know which sealant is being referred to here but I believe what the sealant is doing is plugging the hole with fine particles, much like platelets do in the blood to stop bleeding.

Personally I don't like them or the posiblaty that they are going to lodge (like a blood clot) in something like the radiator core and cause it to loose efficiency. Especially in a car like a Pantera which has a marginally adequate system to say the least. But that's just me.

Pull off the head. I installed a removable panel on my bulkhead. Seems I was in your spot one to many times before?

...Bolts? Your suppose to use Studs with Aluminum Heads! Never seen anyone use Bolts with Aliminum Heads!...

Wow! I never heard that one! I used bolts too, didn't know I was only supposed to use studs with aluminum heads! Why is that Marlin? I've had no problems though, the ROL gaskets are one time torque.

I checked the Edelbrock head instructions and they recommend either high quality head bolts or studs for their aluminum heads. ARP recommends the same citing different advantages for either but does not say that aluminum heads must use studs, depends on your application.

I'm not using Edelbrock heads. I have the Motorsport A3 aluminum heads. I will have to dig out the 1983 catalog to give you the part number but the fastener kit that was sold with them is a BOLT KIT, NOT A STUD KIT.

I'm not exactly sure what the advantage to studs would be but the disadvantage is that many engine compartments are too tight to be able to remove the head from the block with studs.

The key to longevity here is the head gasket and torking the head down accurately to manufacturers specs. I seem to think that it is 110 ft-lbs for the Fel-pro but I would have to check. You have to use the manufacturer's number rather then the Ford shop manual number. Also of note that torque wrenches need to be calibrated occassionally. I will actually use two to make sure that they both agree in critical areas.

Just my opinion. I suppose the answer is what it is.

From what I've been reading studs offer better alignment for installing the heads and better torque distibution and strength. The advantage of bolts are that the heads can be removed with the engine in the car, an engine with studs usually needs to be removed as the heads have to be lifted higher. I would think that you could always remove the studs?

> Your suppose to use Studs with Aluminum Heads! Never seen anyone use
> Bolts with Aliminum Heads!...

Most of the OEM's do as do many engine builders. Even with aluminum
heads and blocks, the OEM's often use bolts but many engine builders
prefer studs to keep from stripping the block threads.

> checked the Edelbrock head instructions and they recommend either high
> quality head bolts or studs for their aluminum heads. ARP recommends
> the same citing different advantages for either but does not say that
> aluminum heads must use studs, depends on your application.

The "high quality head bolts" typically come with thick hardened washers
to not gall the aluminum heads like standard head bolts may.

> I have the Motorsport A3 aluminum heads. I will have to dig out the 1983
> catalog to give you the part number but the fastener kit that was sold
> with them is a BOLT KIT, NOT A STUD KIT.

That would be the Ford Motorsport M-6065-A351 head bolt kit for high port
aluminum heads. I'm using the same kit on the dyno project engine.

> I'm not exactly sure what the advantage to studs would be but the
> disadvantage is that many engine compartments are too tight to be
> able to remove the head from the block with studs.

Many studs have an allen head recess that allows you to screw them out.

> Aluminum heads on an iron block are always a risk.

True, particularly in cold climates.

> the ROL gaskets are one time torque.

As are my favorite Victor Reinz but, with the disimilar thermal expansion
aluminum heads on iron blocks, it is still worth a re-torque and a periodic
snug. Paranoia is the engine builder's best friend.

> You must make sure that you use the Felpro "blue" teflon coated head
> gaskets.

I prefer the Victor Reintz 3502SG (for 351C), Nitroseal material graphite
on steel core. They are coated and go on dry and were originally developed
for high performance marine applications.

> If not short of a head removal there are some wonderful sealants I have
> used that may work, I have used them on my Imports, Iron to aluminum
> heads and ran 100,000 mi more on the engine's.

The stuff I use is K&W block seal (in a copper colored can) from various
auto parts stores. We've used it numerous times to fix leaks on everything
from my dad's 1937 Chrysler Imperial (overported block leaking into exhaust
manifold) to a Rolls Royce (headgasket) to my sister's Chrysler minivan.
The stuff works. It's essentially a sodium silicate solution (similar to
egg preservative from drug stores). Since the 1960's Chrysler and Jaguar
(and likely other manufacturers) used the stuff to fix porous castings.
The K&W directions instruct you to get all the coolant (including that in
the block which means opening the block drains) out, which won't be a
problem in your case. It's a two day process as you will need to let it
set up for 24 hours. Follow the instructions to the letter. Drain all the
coolant out. To do this you'll need to remove the block drain plugs then
flush water through the system. Re-fill with water and use a can of K&W
block seal. They have you run the engine then drain again and let it set
up over night. It will take two days to complete the process as you have
to let it set up for 24 hours. Silicate is soluble in cold water but
precipitates from hot water to form a glassy inorganic coating that adheres
well.

> Checking for straight is very easy.

Victor Reinz makes "carbon impression paper" for checking cylinder head
to block seal. You buy a roll, cut a rectangle out, punch bolt holes,
insert between the head and block, torque to spec then remove for
inspection. It used to be available through NAPA.

Dan Jones

Thanks Dan for all the info. I still have not had time to put the rockers on yet, kind of wrenched my back sittin on the ZF and torqueing. I think that since I was able to turn the bolts on this head I should also re-torque the other also. As for as the sealant, my entire cooling system is brand new so if I still have a leak I'll pull the heads and get em check and maybe use a different head gasket as you recommend.

Thanks again.

Just my 2 cents. I always retorque heads on a rebuild. Had a small block ford I replaced the heads and did not retorque the heads after intial hot run at startup. I blew one of the head gaskets. I replaced both head gaskets and retorqued after warming up. Now thats what I always do after the first warmup of a engine. Havent blown another head gasket or had a leak since.
Jeff

Garth Here are the details of the rebuild.

Misc
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. PI 10 qt baffled oil pan
2. Autolite plugs #3924
3. Jomar 100% no by-pass oil filter
4. Oil pump primer Moroso #62220
5. MSD 8577 Billet distributor
6. Holley Pro street Fuel Kit #641090
7. Thermostat Robertshaw #333-180
8. Holley Fuel Pump #12-854
9. Dist hold Down Moroso #26211
10.Edelbrock AIR-GAP Polished intake manifold
11.Holley 770 Vac Second street avenger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ENGINE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12. Edelbrock Aluminum heads #61629
13. ARP/Edelbrock Head Bolts #8560
14. Fel-Pro head gasket #1013
15. ARP header bolts #400-1202
16. Original #'s matching 4 Bolt Main Block bored .030 over
17. Original crank in perfet condition - polished journals original diameters
18. Balancer, Crank, rods & flywheel balanced
19. Intake gasket Edelbrock #7265
20. B & B oil pump drive shaft #65050
21. Crane Roller Cam #529541 "Hydraulic Roller Custom"
Intake @ CAM 325 @ VALVE 562 Duration 278.0 deg
Exhaust @ CAM 339 @ VALVE 586 Duration 286.0 deg
22. Ford Racing steel dist drive gear #M 12390 J
23. Keith Black Hypereutectic pistons #8-KB148+.030
24. Melling oil pump #M-84AHV
25. Clevite 77 Rod Bearings #CB-927 P
26. Clevite 77 Main Bearings #MS-1010P
27. Rear Main Seal Napa # BS 40042 JV614
28. Rings Hasting #2M 139 030
29. Comp Cams pushrods #7825-16
30. ARP Rod bolts #254-6403
31. Cloyes Timing Chain #9-3121
32. Crane Cams Gold Race Extruded Roller Rockers #27750-16
33. Jomar stud girdles #1135
34. Ford timing chain cover seal #E6DZ 6700A
35. Exhaust Gasket Remflex #RF3006 (these are great)

Cheers

Almost done but have a question re: hydraulic lifter preload adjustment. When assembling the engine it was easy to watch the DRY lifters to set the preload, but with the intake on it's a bit more difficult. In the old days I would adjust them with the engine running, but I would not attempt that on a Pantera (oil every where). I tried to set them the way Crane said. When the exhaust begins to open adjust the intake, then when the intake opens full then is half way closed adjust the exhaust. I fired it up and had tones of rocker noise. Then I did each cylinder at TDC and had them too tight. Went back again at each cylinder and I've almost got them right. When adjusting I back off the rocker until the pushrod is loose then tighten untill the slack is out, spinning the rod, then 1/2 turn more. Do any of you experts know any other method? Thanks

Nope. That's about the way to do them. Fun isn't it? Oh I forgot. I'm not an expert on hydraulics. I run solids.

Sorry. Forget I said anything.

This forum is great, I should have did a search on past threads first. I found tons of info. sorry to waste anyones time ...

Oh Doug,

Yeh it's fun. Sitting on the ZF reaching in to #1 and trying to spin the pushrod. Then get out of the engine bay and turn the crank from the passenger seat. Then repeat. But when I get out and look at the Pantera I realize why I love this car, dispite the sore back and legs...

To avoid that hassle, you need a FRIEND. That's why it's good to have friends, to help you with the 2 man jobs on your Pantera

Just get a remote starter button.

Well I got the valves finally adjusted. It appears that the Crane roller hydraulic lifters don't bleed down very fast therefore make it very difficult to adjust. According to Crane it takes a day to slow bleed them down. After tighting each one down 1/10 turn every few minutes I was able to bleed them down then adjust em. Now that it's running as well as it was before the retorque with no leaks yet (it never leaked at idle) I'll take it out and get on it some and see if it leaks.

Your in-and-out experience is another reason I always adjust valves with the engine running. Sure, its sloppy, makes a mess and you can only do about half per session, but it for-sure gets them correctly adjusted. Seems that even with 5 decades of practice (hydraulics and solids), I still can't get all 16 correctly set cold so that when the engine's hot they're also correct. After running the engine until the gauge says its hot, pull a valve cover and tug on the rocker arms- you'll likely find one thats tight and one thats loose (at least!)

I gave up on hydraulic lifters years ago exactly for this reason. The ONLY way, in my opinion, to use them is with a bolt down, non-adjustable valve train. In my opinion that is what hydraulic lifters are are for.

Not only are these things likely to act as BossWrench says but they are going to do this again after you think they are finally adjusted. Particularly after you run hard and you kill the viscosity of the engine oil a little.

I don't know why anyone wants the agravation of anti-pumpup hydraulic lifters in an adjustable valve train. Solids are 1000% easier to do.

I don't even know how to do the lifters with the engine running in a Pantera BW? You must have some kind of a harness that suspends you above the hot drive train?

How do you keep from burning your hands and finger tips?

The only lifter to use with an adjustable valve train is a solid.

Like I said, having fun yet?

I totally agree with you BW. In the day, I actually collected valve covers from various engines and I would hacksaw them down the middle in order to get the socket in. This stopped some of the mess. I never tried the small little clips that you could attach to the rockers push rod side to deflect the oil down. I asked Crane about adjusting them while running and they said don't, but gave me no reason why. Doug, I agree with you on the solids. I really wanted a solid roller cam from Crane but with the Edelbrock heads the max lift I could go was .600 and Crane has no solid roller with a smaller that .600 lift. I did ask Crane if I could give up with the hydraulic and go to a roller solid, since it's a roller I thought no problem. They said I could but the ramp on the lobe is slightly different with the solid, not quite as steep I think. But Doug I do really like solids, even the little clatter sound of valves adjusted perfectly. I still have to put my stud girdle ono now that they sound OK, BW, I'm sure you are right, I'll find some tight and some loose. It will be very tough to resist adjusting them again, no , no no ......

Well went for a ride today, dang it's noisy with the bulkhead off. Did not really jump on it too much, pavement a bit wet and with the bulkhead off it really wakes you up when you pounce on it. After this run no leak. When the pavement gets dryer I really give it a test.

bulkhead out...

With tub and cover

Well, we finally had a break in the snow and I got a chance to run the Pantera bit. Not so good news. While the engine ran great, it still let out a very small bit of coolant again. This only happens when high reving for a while. It looks like the heads are coming off. I don't want any problems in Reno. After I check the heads and BLOCK for straigntness and a possible "skimming" of the heads I'll reasemble. I was just wondering what head gaskets you all with aluminum heads are using? I'm a bit leary fo the Felpro now. I saw some new stuff in Engine Masters mag that you can put on head gaskets, I don't recal the name but I'm thinking of putting something on them, well at least around the water jackets, what do you experts think?

Thanks All.

Bummer. I'm really sorry to hear about this. I am running the Felpro head gaskets. This is my second C with them. Also ran an aluminum head 427mr with them which is a notorious problem setup. No problem with any of them.

I'm afraid that you likely have a cracked or porous head. I know how to mag the iron heads for cracks but I don't know how to do the alloy heads.

Thanks Doug,

Yeh, I'm not too happy about R&Ring the heads. Edelbrock told me today that there would be no problem checking the heads. It's just the time and effort to get them off and ship them. On the bright side I feel that the bottom end I did is working just fine and a bit of "skimming" of the heads will decrease the cc and maybe add a bit more HP. Hopefully w/o any pinging. I sure hope it's not a crack, I really feel it's just not flat, it runs to good and does not over heat. I can idle for days at 180deg with 1 fan on, of course it's only 20 degrees outside.

Doug,

I just noticed that you are in NY. I bought 6958 from a dealer in NY over the internet sight unseen about 5 years ago. You might know my Pantera. I felt that I got a good deal.

Why do I think that I have heard of cracked blocks on the head mating surface? Why don't you try to use the block sealer before you pull it apart? Particularly since it is a trickle.

What dealer did you buy it from?

I don't recall the dealer but here's a picture of the car at the dealer.

I thought about sealer but I just replaced all the cooling tubes, the Fluidyne rediator is a couple years old, new tanks and the block is clean. I'm just a bit reluctant to plug stuff up.

I use cometic head gaskets. They are rubber coated mls gaskets. They are supposed to be bulletproof and able to be reused multiple times. I have never had the heads off to test the reusable part but had the heads surfaced prior to assembly and have not had any coolant leaks from the gaskets. I am running them on an aluminum block with aluminum heads though so not sure how they would work with an alum/iron setup. Now if I could just get those damn header bolt holes sealed up well I would be happy.

Blaine

Head seems to be fine now, no leak. I've been running great now for months and every thing seemed great untill last weekend. Jumped on it a bit and reved it up and there it was again. It sounded like a couple of rockers loose or something else. I'm hoping it not the ZF. At idle rockers are completely quiet and a perfect lope and rock smooth. I jacked the cat up and put it in gear to see if it was something other than a rocker arm. I heard nothing when reving it up. If there was a ZF or clutch problem I would hear the noise at any RPM right? When I adjusted the rockers I only went about 1/8 th turn after 0 lash and I'm thinking that at the higher RPM the lifter(s) are really leaking down, does that sound possible. Remember I have a Crane (colector now) roller cam with Crane roller rockers and a Jomar stud girdle to keep every thing rigid. I'll be checking things tonight