Guys listen! I really don't get all the fuss about finding a Capri steering column and saving your own etc. Why don't just bloody buy the EZ and fit it?? Before you are done messing around with all that you have spend so much time that I simply don't think it is worth it. The EZ works flawless and is specially designed and manufactured to fit the Pantera. It is a match for your blinker stalk, plastic fairing, steering wheel, Ignition lock and your steering rack. It comes with a harness for all incl. the speed sensor and the only thing you need to consider is a bit of sheet metal modification where it mounts.
Sometimes its just not worth it to re-invent the wheel when some clever people already invented it several times ;-)
I am of course now prepared to get a lecture in how interesting and challenging it is to re-invent the wheel, but honestly you know my opinion and if it is not clear I have the EZ installed and I am pleased with it 100%
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It is fun building it yourself.
The President, Trump, won't let us buy out of the country now. We can sell, but not buy.
If we do, he puts our name on a list and someone will come and "explain it to us" in person. Hopefully we don't disappear.
It's a new world for us now. He has a boyfriend too. We call him Putti.
One thing that is for sure is if you order your EZ EPAS no one will try to stop you. You can currently benefit from the favorable exchange rate between USD and EURO. And Trump what does he have to do with all this now? Just basically ignore him if he is not your cup of Tea I would say.
Sometimes it's just a good discussion, plus if I can engineer an equally good solution that costs me $150 and some free time then I'm ahead and by documenting it others might be too. That said I may very well end up with one of the two commercial options.
The steering column is from a Mk1 Ford Capri, I do have a spare. The challenge is that Capri's have become collector items in their own right so spares like this and the ignition switch have substantially increased in cost.
Interestingly I came across an EPS system for a MK1 Capri/Escort for sale in the UK, made from the Corsa unit that Doug so loathes.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C139628
Julian
The steering column is from a Mk1 Ford Capri, I do have a spare. The challenge is that Capri's have become collector items in their own right so spares like this and the ignition switch have substantially increased in cost.
Interestingly I came across an EPS system for a MK1 Capri/Escort for sale in the UK, made from the Corsa unit that Doug so loathes.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C139628
Julian
Julian it is such a good discussion that we have in fact had it twice now (at least) I am with you that it is fun and I am guilty my self in many matters. But on this one I tend to lean against starting with an EZ and then consider the rest of the mod the actual fun.
thanks larry,Scott at Sacc restoration is working with me,as soon as I can fiqure out how to post pictures (not very computer literate) I will show you guys what I'm doing,EPAS Performance in FLA is not a bad kit its just about 2 inches to long were the bracket bolts Scott is working on a fix for that it comes with what looks like a capri/pantera colum
jimmy
jimmy
Here is the reply I received from Bill Taylor regarding the S2000 steering rack.
"Steve,
I did install a narrowed S2000 power rack and discovered the following problems:
1) 0.75 turns lock-to-lock steering. Sort of like a go-cart. This is caused by the fact the S2000 has very long steering arms (and rack travel to suit those arms) relative to the Pantera (which is about 3.5 turns lock-to-lock ..... much too slow for a sports car).
2) The S2000 is a rack and pinion with a coaxial motor and a separate control box which requires only digital vehicle speed pulses as an input. But the S2000 rack must be shortened by 6 inches to fit the Pantera frame and frame modification to the Pantera to fit the rack are not trivial.
2) Liability. I could just hear a lawyer at the trial after I wrecked a school buss full of handicapped children on the freeway ask, for the benefit of the jury, where I got my mechanical engineering degree and how much experience I had designing steering systems at a major car manufacturer.
I wanted an in-column power assist system, but the only one available at the time was from the Toyota Prius. The Prius system is extremely complicated. It has four digital bus inputs and even if you could sort all the buss interfaces out, it looked too big to fit under the Pantera dash.
A big, expensive, time consuming mistake.
Bill Taylor"
I did a little searching and found Unisteer. This seems like an option that could be mounted on the firewall under the car. Anyone have there car up in the air to look at the measurements? I need to call the company to see if there is an option for speed input.
"Steve,
I did install a narrowed S2000 power rack and discovered the following problems:
1) 0.75 turns lock-to-lock steering. Sort of like a go-cart. This is caused by the fact the S2000 has very long steering arms (and rack travel to suit those arms) relative to the Pantera (which is about 3.5 turns lock-to-lock ..... much too slow for a sports car).
2) The S2000 is a rack and pinion with a coaxial motor and a separate control box which requires only digital vehicle speed pulses as an input. But the S2000 rack must be shortened by 6 inches to fit the Pantera frame and frame modification to the Pantera to fit the rack are not trivial.
2) Liability. I could just hear a lawyer at the trial after I wrecked a school buss full of handicapped children on the freeway ask, for the benefit of the jury, where I got my mechanical engineering degree and how much experience I had designing steering systems at a major car manufacturer.
I wanted an in-column power assist system, but the only one available at the time was from the Toyota Prius. The Prius system is extremely complicated. It has four digital bus inputs and even if you could sort all the buss interfaces out, it looked too big to fit under the Pantera dash.
A big, expensive, time consuming mistake.
Bill Taylor"
I did a little searching and found Unisteer. This seems like an option that could be mounted on the firewall under the car. Anyone have there car up in the air to look at the measurements? I need to call the company to see if there is an option for speed input.
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Ok, just pause for a second guys.
If you're going to custom build an EPAS, why put it in the cabin? Its already cramped enough.
This about mounting the EPAS under the front trunk floor, there is room. It does require fabrication in an area that's a pain to work in.
This has other benefits, you can move the steering shaft firewall pass through further up, and out of the way of your feet.
Only speaking from experience since I did I already custom fabbed a EPAS.
The unisteer looks very similar to my cut down unit based on size, if I were to do it over I would start with a one of the curve programmable race EPS systems.
Dave
If you're going to custom build an EPAS, why put it in the cabin? Its already cramped enough.
This about mounting the EPAS under the front trunk floor, there is room. It does require fabrication in an area that's a pain to work in.
This has other benefits, you can move the steering shaft firewall pass through further up, and out of the way of your feet.
Only speaking from experience since I did I already custom fabbed a EPAS.
The unisteer looks very similar to my cut down unit based on size, if I were to do it over I would start with a one of the curve programmable race EPS systems.
Dave
Regarding the CAN bus interfacing to many EPAS units, vehicle speed is transmit over the CAN system. While there is no way (without a coding degree) to alter the assist vs speed you can alter the incoming message. The ECU I use for my fuel injection has user configurable CAN bus outputs. All I need to do is figure out what message the EPAS system is looking for and program the injection ECU to send it. If I dont like the assist curve I just alter the message to suit.
PANTERA Doug,i have that unit now im trying to mount scott is working on the same one and it has the Capri/Pantera column,according to scott its 2 inches to long so you need to move the mount on the column donw to bring the steering up 2 inches or make an adapter and move it up roughly 2 inches if i could figure out to shrink the pictures of my car to fit this format i could show you but im not very computer literat
I know for certain that there are no inputs that would be directly adjustable with a potentiometer on the Cobalt SS EPAS system. I am uncertain at this point whether the CAN bus input is just a Speed message and the EPAS does the assist calculation itself or if there is a requested assist message and the ECU does the thinking. The only way to use a potentiometer would be to have a microprocessor built in that converted the potentiometer input to a CAN message.
If it is calculated by the EPAS which I suspect it is I would have the ECU output a modified vehicle speed output message. For example rather than sending a message from the ECU to the EPAS saying the car is going 50 MPH I would alter the multiplier to say the car is going 100 MPH. This would in effect reduce the power steering assist. If you made a simple circuit with a potentiometer and processor that output the CAN message and altered it by potentiometer position it would have the same effect.
While on the VSS topic, anyone have any wisdom on mounting the VSS unit under the dash, at the speedometer, instead of at the ZF angle adaptor?
With correct adapter fittings, seems it could be completely hidden under the dash and thus not require running wires from engine bay.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Larry
With correct adapter fittings, seems it could be completely hidden under the dash and thus not require running wires from engine bay.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Larry
Larry,
That's the way EZ Electric did the prototype. They mounted the VSS at the speedometer end of the cable (under the dash), then used a cable a few inches long to connect the VSS to the speedometer. I'm sure you could order it that way. They told me they could also supply a GPS VSS.
I already had a VSS, since I'd converted my OEM speedometer to electric operation years ago. The VSS I had was made by Veglia for a bunch of different '80's Italian cars (Ferrari, Alfa 164, etc.) including the Pantera Si. That's it in the photo below. I sent it to EZ Electric so they could calibrate their EPAS electronics to work with it. I then used an Autometer GPS unit to drive my speedometer.
Speaking of electric speedometers, SpeedHut has an interesting new product for converting mechanical speedometers to GPS operation. It's a GPS/VSS box that drives a short speedometer cable that screws into your mechanical speedometer.
http://www.speedhut.com/ecomme...rive-Speed-Converter
That's the way EZ Electric did the prototype. They mounted the VSS at the speedometer end of the cable (under the dash), then used a cable a few inches long to connect the VSS to the speedometer. I'm sure you could order it that way. They told me they could also supply a GPS VSS.
I already had a VSS, since I'd converted my OEM speedometer to electric operation years ago. The VSS I had was made by Veglia for a bunch of different '80's Italian cars (Ferrari, Alfa 164, etc.) including the Pantera Si. That's it in the photo below. I sent it to EZ Electric so they could calibrate their EPAS electronics to work with it. I then used an Autometer GPS unit to drive my speedometer.
Speaking of electric speedometers, SpeedHut has an interesting new product for converting mechanical speedometers to GPS operation. It's a GPS/VSS box that drives a short speedometer cable that screws into your mechanical speedometer.
http://www.speedhut.com/ecomme...rive-Speed-Converter
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quote:Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
While on the VSS topic, anyone have any wisdom on mounting the VSS unit under the dash, at the speedometer, instead of at the ZF angle adaptor?
With correct adapter fittings, seems it could be completely hidden under the dash and thus not require running wires from engine bay.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Larry
Larry there is not enough space behind the speedo to fit the speed sensor there. It really is not a big job to pull the wire thru and strapped to the speedo cable. It is for sure faster than fumbling around behind the speedo and in worst case removing the dash. If you insist to fit it behind the speedo there is however an option using a 90° adapter and the benefit is that they come with various ratios so that you can get your speedo to show accurate speed. I fitted my speed sensor at the ZF together with a 13% ratio decrease adapter (180°) so that my speedo is now accurate. It looks like a christmas tree coming out of the ZF but that didn't bother me so far.
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quote:They mounted the VSS at the speedometer end of the cable (under the dash), then used a cable a few inches long to connect the VSS to the speedometer. I'm sure you could order it that way.
Thanks, David.
That seems like a cleaner and "simpler???" approach for the VSS signal.
Good to know it is likely an option from them.
Any idea why they went with the ZF mounted solution?
Larry
quote:a 90° adapter and the benefit is that they come with various ratios so that you can get your speedo to show accurate speed.
Thanks.
That right-angle adaptor might also be useful to free up space for other under-dash modifications.
Larry
quote:The steering input is derived from the torque sensor in the steering column and speed is from the VSS but might be translated by the BCM in the serial port or through the CAN communication. This is very difficult for a backyard wrench turner to address this need. To accomplish this a microprocessor needs to be programmed to fake the BCM signal."
I strongly suspect that is what the after-market units using a potentiometer are doing.
To do the assist properly, two inputs are needed:
tire resistance, measured by sensing the torque needed to rotate steering wheel. This is done internally on the EPS shaft.
level of assist, dependent on vehicle speed and controlled by an external-to-the EPS unit VSS input.... or the potentiometer through a suitable controller.
As for the internal torque sensor, this little YouTube video with a cut-away unit helps in displaying the internal workings of an EPS.
https://youtu.be/H-kBebxMPrw
Larry
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