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77 replies

Seeking information concerning installation of EPAS electronic power steering in a Pantera.

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lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
Hello Jimmy,

I know of two kits that are being marketed for installation in Pantera's.

EZSteer from Europe and what I assume you have purchased, the EPAS unit.

The only installation of the EPAS unit that I know of was done by SCOTT BELL of SACC restorations. He posts often on this forum. He has a advertising banner at the top of the page.

He also found the installation process to be in need of improvement and in fact is working with the seller to perfect their Pantera kit.

I have exchanged emails with Scott and he expects to have a revised and improved Pantera kit ready for market hopefully later in February.

I suggest you reach out to him for questions on installing the early not ready for primetime kit you currently have.

Larry
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
Anyone ever tried this??

David,

I .....think..... the Saturn Vue/Chevy Equinox unit sourced for the YouTube conversion is the same unit used by EPAS (Florida). I've studied the photos and talked to Gerry Romack who has done several of the EZSteer (Netherlands) conversions but still do not know their source car for their conversion, but they say their kits use NSK and Toyo. The Saturn unit is Toyo.

If the Saturn steering shaft can be mounted to match the Pantera's cabin length, I'm sure the lower connection could be figured out. It is doubtful the Saturn shaft diameter and spline count matches our Pantera (which is ford Capri), but since most of us are using an aftermarket wheel, a proper adapter hub for a Saturn could probably work just fine for most of us.

The Great Lakes Pantera chapter website has a pictorial and some text on one of the conversions that Gerry did.

http://www.greatlakespantera.c...20the%20Pantera1.pdf

Searching Google and YouTube turns up many links on these conversions. While keeping in mind that this is a steering system, it does appear to be within the range of hobbyists with the proper knowledge, patience and tools.

Larry
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
This seems to be a hot topic of late and the market is widening just as rapidly.

I am starting to look around for a different application, a 280Z that I am flaring and widening.

I first came across the EPAS on a race car and that unit was very compact, with a simple knob for effort increase/reduction. If space is limited the race units may be a way to go and could possibly be mounted under the front hood in place of the short intermediate shaft on the rack.

Although as 2 (almost drop in) Pantera units are available, albeit at cost I'm more interested to hear what pick 'n' pull solutions people are coming up with and more photo's of Doug's experience are welcome. I might see how much I can pick up a Fiesta unit to play with.

Julian
davidbdavidbMember
Honestly, of all the mods we do to our cars, I can't really see the big advantage in this one.

Having a proper suspension and steering setup is absolutely necessary. Being able to take your hands off the wheel at speed without worrying about it getting darty is a requirement. But power steering never made it on a 'to do' list for any of my cats.

These aren't daily drivers, so you're not constantly cranking full lock getting in and out of parking spots. And at speed - even very low speed - I like the unassisted feel of Pantera steering. Whether on my original 8" 15s or 10" 17s, even on my latest car with 245/35/19s I never found the need for power steering. And I'm an OLD guy.

What am I missing? Why is it so popular and why do so many people tell me I will love it?
davidnunndavidnunnMember
It's my understanding the unit EZ uses in the Pantera kit is from a Japanese market Nissan. EZ makes EPAS conversions for over 100 different makes/models of cars. They use new EPAS motors made by Koyo and NSK. They modify the firmware code in these units to suit each application. They say that's more difficult and time consuming than the physical installation. Their goal is for each installation to appear and feel like it came from the factory that way. They considered a few different EPAS motors before they settled on the one that's in the Pantera kit. Their Pantera kit is now TÜV approved so even Roland Jackael (DeTomaso Germany) has one in his own Pantera. Another Pantera vendor who's installed a few EZ kits is Don Byars. In fact, his Facebook site has at least one video of him driving an EZ equipped Pantera.

Further to Julian's comments, DC Electronics in the UK makes the most compact EPAS kit that I've come across. That unit is called the "Lightweight Assembly" and is fully user programmable. The software uses a 3D map (like a fuel injection ECU) that varies assist based on speed and load.

http://www.ultimatepowersteeri...sted-steering-epas-1

Another route to EPAS, that no one has mentioned here, is to use an EPAS steering rack. Bill Taylor, who made the wiring diagrams we all rely on (on the Pantera Place web site), has a Honda S2000 EPAS steering rack in his Pantera. If I were doing it all over again, I'd be picking Bill's brain! Then I could use Jon Haas' non-EPAS C6 'vette steering column conversion too.  
C comp2Member
I very much see the advantages of power steering. Big tires make an obvious need for it. Getting around in any lot or small area is defiantly a benefit when slow, but there is much benefit at speed.

Caster was limited in a stock Pantera and cars without power steering. When power steering got better cars started dumping a lot more caster into cars.

When you fly an airplane you have a trim wheel. The trim wheel takes the pressure off the flight controls so you can be smooth. An example would be stick you arm straight out with a 5lb weight and try to paint with a paint brush. Remove the weight and see if you can paint smoother. It has nothing to do with if you are man enough to paint while holding a 5lb weight, it's about the quality of the paint job.

Problem with many power steering conversions is the great amount of details from feedback to rack changes and issues are not dealt with and people hate the conversion. It does not make it a bad idea, just a bad conversion.

I am using an electric pump with a hydraulic rack. I am quite happy with the result but would wish what I went through to get there on no one. My pump is mounted under the front trunk where people drop their batteries into. The rack was modified in a very lengthy process to eliminate bump steer.

zr1panterazr1panteraForum Sponsor - SACC Restorations
Anybody that doubts the benefit of Power Steering in a Pantera has not driven a Pantera with Power Steering.

I also didn't think I needed it until I installed a PS unit in my car. It transforms the driving experience. Just moving around from the garage to the driveway is fun.

I then took my car out onto the race track. I also thought I needed speed sensitive Power Steering. Guess what, I set the knob to the power lever I liked and never touched it again. No need to change the boost level for each part of the track. Set it once and forget it. Just like the guy on the video said.

The unit from EPAS in Florida is compact and looks almost identical to the Netherlands unit. The beauty of these units is there is not much that needs to be cut under the dash. And, anything that gets cut doesn't preclude you from being able to reinstall the original column.
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
quote:
Originally posted by David_Nunn:
Further to Julian's comments, DC Electronics in the UK makes the most compact EPAS kit that I've come across. That unit is called the "Lightweight Assembly" and is fully user programmable. The software uses a 3D map (like a fuel injection ECU) that varies assist based on speed and load.

http://www.ultimatepowersteeri...sted-steering-epas-1

Another route to EPAS, that no one has mentioned here, is to use an EPAS steering rack.

David,

Great minds...... I looked at DC Electronics web page and thought about posting a link, but then thought well if anyone is spending that money they will probably opt for one of the 2 tried and tested units.

Here's their direct link, it seems a bit of a surreptitious route from the UK to Australia to the US!

http://www.dcelectronics.co.uk/Products/EPAS/

Julian
zr1panterazr1panteraForum Sponsor - SACC Restorations
quote:
Post some pics. What have you got?


I guess you're not paying attention. Cool I have the EPAS unit from the company in Florida. I am working with them to make the unit more user friendly for Pantera owners. Their unit is available today via Jegs, SACC and other venders but unless you are able to do some fabrication work, the installation may be a challenge. I am working to correct those issues so the install is simple and easy.

Someone like you, or many of the other folks on this forum with mechanical skills, could purchase this unit today and get it installed without much issue.
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
Doug,

When I looked on eBay to see what used EPAS units sell for there were "controller kits" for $55 that included wiring.

For the person who wants to be able to dial the assist up or down (multiple drivers?) and have VSS control, it should not be hard to wire a potentionmeter in the VSS circuit.

Julian
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
I will be installing an EPAS unit as well on the new build. I got a Cobalt SS unit for free so thats what I am using. My friend and I are reverse engineering the GMLan messages to find what the EPAS system requires for input in order to use the Variable assist based on speed. That being said you guys will likely have yours up and running and lots of testing miles done before I get my car back on the road.
davidnunndavidnunnMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
My thought was that it is far simpler to find a vehicle application that already would have similarities to the Pantera.Maybe a 911 unit? I haven't looked at those yet.One of the big Porsches have got to have PS in them. The Cayenne maybe?


The Cayenne is an SUV so I don't see any similarities there! LOL

Porsche has had power steering in the 911 since 1993 but they started using electric power steering in 2011. Porsche uses an electric power steering rack in these cars. In the 911, not only does your assist decrease with speed, the number of turns lock-to-lock increases as well. Fortunately, the variable ratio is an option.
tsolotsoloMember
quote:
Originally posted by David_Nunn:

Another route to EPAS, that no one has mentioned here, is to use an EPAS steering rack. Bill Taylor, who made the wiring diagrams we all rely on (on the Pantera Place web site), has a Honda S2000 EPAS steering rack in his Pantera. If I were doing it all over again, I'd be picking Bill's brain!  


Now you caught my attention. The power rack solves the space under the dash problem. I will strongly consider that. How do I contact Bill?

Steve
davidnunndavidnunnMember
For people who are determined to put together their own EPAS columns, whether it be to save a few hundred dollars or simply for the challenge and/or satisfaction; the Opel Corsa B&C units seem to be popular with the kit car crowd, including the GT40 kit crowd. These units are VERY compact, so they would be easy to adapt to the Pantera's column. Since they are so popular, there's lots of info available on wiring, adaptation and modifications (eg. speed sensitivity). You'll never find one on this side of the pond but they are readily available in the UK and Europe. In fact, there are vendors that sell used ones that have been checked-out and are guaranteed to be fully operational. These same vendors sell installation parts, control boxes, etc. Here's one such vendor:

http://www.rallywiz.com/Shop/p...ing-column-kits.html

If you want to build your own, this is an easy way to go.

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joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If you are in Europe you want the Fiat Punto. If you are in the US you want the Ford Fiesta unit. They are almost the same and you will not find a more compact unit.

The REASON I dropped the pursuit of the Fiat part was that the Fiesta unit is for all intents and purposes the same part.


This also brings up a question as to age and iterations of EPS. The Fiat Punto has been produced since the mid 90's and an eBay UK search turns up a bunch of units with the motor (the earlier Punto link posted unit does not include the motor) and reasonable postage. My question now is are early EPS the same as modern EPS in form and function?

I am at the point I think to learn more I need an EPAS column just to tear down and fully understand how it functions and how parts could be grafted onto the Pantera column.

Julian
davidnunndavidnunnMember
Here's some interesting info on the Opel Corsa EPAS units:

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt4...assist-steering.html

http://www.super7thheaven.co.u...power-steering-epas/

The Opel EPAS motor is no larger than the one EZ Electric uses. I believe you could only use the EPAS motor and load sensor. The control unit could be mounted remotely. You would need to fabricate a new upper portion ("input"), between the EPAS motor and the steering wheel, as well as a new "output". That's how EZ Electric makes an almost bolt-in kit. Everything in front of the EPAS motor is fabricated by them, as is the output.
kjeldpedersenkjeldpedersenMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by David_Nunn:
For people who are determined to put together their own EPAS columns, whether it be to save a few hundred dollars or simply for the challenge and/or satisfaction; the Opel Corsa B&C units seem to be popular with the kit car crowd, including the GT40 kit crowd. These units are VERY compact, so they would be easy to adapt to the Pantera's column. Since they are so popular, there's lots of info available on wiring, adaptation and modifications (eg. speed sensitivity). You'll never find one on this side of the pond but they are readily available in the UK and Europe. In fact, there are vendors that sell used ones that have been checked-out and are guaranteed to be fully operational. These same vendors sell installation parts, control boxes, etc. Here's one such vendor:

http://www.rallywiz.com/Shop/p...ing-column-kits.html

If you want to build your own, this is an easy way to go.



With all due respect, don't bother with that unit. The assembly length is WAY to long. You will have to cut a hole through the floor and you will need to change the rack.

It's motor orientation is exactly the opposite of what you can use in a Pantera.

Essentially that is for a right hand drive car and a much larger front cabin.

Hi PanteraDoug.
Do you know what year of Fiat Punto?

Kjeld Pedersen
Denmark.

If you are in Europe you want the Fiat Punto. If you are in the US you want the Ford Fiesta unit. They are almost the same and you will not find a more compact unit.

The REASON I dropped the pursuit of the Fiat part was that the Fiesta unit is for all intents and purposes the same part.



The Honda EPS rack is the only thing that even comes close to fitting. It certainly won't if you have a dropped battery box. The motor is going to need to occupy that space.

It could be put in a lathe to cut the Pantera bracket mounting surfaces BUT the hub connection into the cabin is not going to work. That part of the assembly is WAY to long and will block the pedals.



Caution should prevail on "kits" that originate as universal. The Dutch kit comes the closest to a Pantera specific kit.

Anything where you need to fabricate, is not as specific as the seller says it is.

You actually have to have a Pantera on the premises to specifically fit it to the car.



The top of the "kit" effects everything that you see sitting in the seat.

Fitting the ignition key mechanism and the steering wheel from the Pantera and maintaining an original look is not impossible but can be a challenge.

The best way to do that is with keeping the original column and getting another to work with.

That side of the EPS unit you are working with is also very important. The GM Vue (and spin off vehicles) does not work there either.



The original Pantera steering column was sourced from a Mercury Capri. Even that needed to be shortened to fit the Pantera.

So far there is no 100% comprehensive "bolt in kit".

The question is, can I get a better fit myself? Maybe? Bottom line, if all you can do is just turn a screwdriver or a wrench, stay away from this modification.



This likely is a bigger project then anyone expects for all but a few.
kjeldpedersenkjeldpedersenMember
Thanks for the quick reply.

this Punto year/type is easy to find here in Denmark.
I know a junkyard, i think less than 100Usd for one unit.

Kjeld.


quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by Kjeld Pedersen:



Hi PanteraDoug.
Do you know what year of Fiat Punto?

Kjeld Pedersen
Denmark.




2006 to 2009 is what appears to be the application? They changed the name to a Grand Punto at some point.

I don't have a lot of information on that one and have NOT had that part here to try it.

That is not sold here in the US and the ones I am seeing are right hand drive, which indicates the UK market.

I am going by the pictures that I see posted for sale on Ebay.

You are really on your own on that one I am afraid?
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Kjeld Pedersen:
Thanks for the quick reply.

this Punto year/type is easy to find here in Denmark.
I know a junkyard, i think less than 100Usd for one unit.

Kjeld.


quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by Kjeld Pedersen:



Hi PanteraDoug.
Do you know what year of Fiat Punto?

Kjeld Pedersen
Denmark.




2006 to 2009 is what appears to be the application? They changed the name to a Grand Punto at some point.

I don't have a lot of information on that one and have NOT had that part here to try it.

That is not sold here in the US and the ones I am seeing are right hand drive, which indicates the UK market.

I am going by the pictures that I see posted for sale on Ebay.

You are really on your own on that one I am afraid?


In order to do a nice job, make it look original and hide the modification, you really need to find a spare Pantera OR 1970 Mercury Capri steering column.

Don't cut up your steering column. Save it so you put the car back if necessary.



Originally the kit from the Netherlands needed your column for the parts.

Now they don't. They must have found a source of them somewhere? There are none here. They are obsolete from Ford now.

I would recommend that you get the Capri part.

When you take your Pantera column apart, you will see the value of having the Capri column.



If you find the source of them in Europe, post it here. It will help out more than just one Pantera owner for sure.



On that Fiat EPS, try and get it with at least a pig tail of the wiring harness. It will save you time finding the plugs themselves.

You also want the u-joints and D shaft if you can get them.

Also be aware that almost all of the steel sheetmetal it will come with is going to get thrown away.
davidnunndavidnunnMember
quote:
PanteraDoug wrote:
Originally the kit from the Netherlands needed your column for the parts.


EZ Electric has never needed steering columns from customers, for parts. We decided to send them my steering column because I have a GT5-S ignition switch, trim bezel and a VSS from an Si that I wanted to use. They just wanted to make sure it would all work with their column. They sent my column back to me with their EPAS column. Mine was also the second Pantera column they had built; the first being the prototype. That was in 2012! That's mine in their promo photos. Everything in their Pantera EPAS column is new. Other than the EPAS motor itself, the load sensor and the circuit board, it is all custom made/machined for the Pantera column. I'm sure the unit SACC sells is the same.
goodrocgoodrocMember
Guys listen! I really don't get all the fuss about finding a Capri steering column and saving your own etc. Why don't just bloody buy the EZ and fit it?? Before you are done messing around with all that you have spend so much time that I simply don't think it is worth it. The EZ works flawless and is specially designed and manufactured to fit the Pantera. It is a match for your blinker stalk, plastic fairing, steering wheel, Ignition lock and your steering rack. It comes with a harness for all incl. the speed sensor and the only thing you need to consider is a bit of sheet metal modification where it mounts.

Sometimes its just not worth it to re-invent the wheel when some clever people already invented it several times ;-)

I am of course now prepared to get a lecture in how interesting and challenging it is to re-invent the wheel, but honestly you know my opinion and if it is not clear I have the EZ installed and I am pleased with it 100%
goodrocgoodrocMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:


It is fun building it yourself.

The President, Trump, won't let us buy out of the country now. We can sell, but not buy.

If we do, he puts our name on a list and someone will come and "explain it to us" in person. Hopefully we don't disappear.

It's a new world for us now. He has a boyfriend too. We call him Putti.


One thing that is for sure is if you order your EZ EPAS no one will try to stop you. You can currently benefit from the favorable exchange rate between USD and EURO. And Trump what does he have to do with all this now? Just basically ignore him if he is not your cup of Tea I would say.
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
Sometimes it's just a good discussion, plus if I can engineer an equally good solution that costs me $150 and some free time then I'm ahead and by documenting it others might be too. That said I may very well end up with one of the two commercial options.

The steering column is from a Mk1 Ford Capri, I do have a spare. The challenge is that Capri's have become collector items in their own right so spares like this and the ignition switch have substantially increased in cost.

Interestingly I came across an EPS system for a MK1 Capri/Escort for sale in the UK, made from the Corsa unit that Doug so loathes.

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C139628

Julian
S shelbyracerMember
thanks larry,Scott at Sacc restoration is working with me,as soon as I can fiqure out how to post pictures (not very computer literate) I will show you guys what I'm doing,EPAS Performance in FLA is not a bad kit its just about 2 inches to long were the bracket bolts Scott is working on a fix for that it comes with what looks like a capri/pantera colum
jimmy
tsolotsoloMember
Here is the reply I received from Bill Taylor regarding the S2000 steering rack.

"Steve,



I did install a narrowed S2000 power rack and discovered the following problems:



1) 0.75 turns lock-to-lock steering. Sort of like a go-cart. This is caused by the fact the S2000 has very long steering arms (and rack travel to suit those arms) relative to the Pantera (which is about 3.5 turns lock-to-lock ..... much too slow for a sports car).



2) The S2000 is a rack and pinion with a coaxial motor and a separate control box which requires only digital vehicle speed pulses as an input. But the S2000 rack must be shortened by 6 inches to fit the Pantera frame and frame modification to the Pantera to fit the rack are not trivial.



2) Liability. I could just hear a lawyer at the trial after I wrecked a school buss full of handicapped children on the freeway ask, for the benefit of the jury, where I got my mechanical engineering degree and how much experience I had designing steering systems at a major car manufacturer.



I wanted an in-column power assist system, but the only one available at the time was from the Toyota Prius. The Prius system is extremely complicated. It has four digital bus inputs and even if you could sort all the buss interfaces out, it looked too big to fit under the Pantera dash.



A big, expensive, time consuming mistake.



Bill Taylor"


I did a little searching and found Unisteer. This seems like an option that could be mounted on the firewall under the car. Anyone have there car up in the air to look at the measurements? I need to call the company to see if there is an option for speed input.

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H hockeydudeMember
Ok, just pause for a second guys.

If you're going to custom build an EPAS, why put it in the cabin? Its already cramped enough.

This about mounting the EPAS under the front trunk floor, there is room. It does require fabrication in an area that's a pain to work in.

This has other benefits, you can move the steering shaft firewall pass through further up, and out of the way of your feet.

Only speaking from experience since I did I already custom fabbed a EPAS.

The unisteer looks very similar to my cut down unit based on size, if I were to do it over I would start with a one of the curve programmable race EPS systems.

Dave
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
Regarding the CAN bus interfacing to many EPAS units, vehicle speed is transmit over the CAN system. While there is no way (without a coding degree) to alter the assist vs speed you can alter the incoming message. The ECU I use for my fuel injection has user configurable CAN bus outputs. All I need to do is figure out what message the EPAS system is looking for and program the injection ECU to send it. If I dont like the assist curve I just alter the message to suit.
S shelbyracerMember
PANTERA Doug,i have that unit now im trying to mount scott is working on the same one and it has the Capri/Pantera column,according to scott its 2 inches to long so you need to move the mount on the column donw to bring the steering up 2 inches or make an adapter and move it up roughly 2 inches if i could figure out to shrink the pictures of my car to fit this format i could show you but im not very computer literat
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
I know for certain that there are no inputs that would be directly adjustable with a potentiometer on the Cobalt SS EPAS system. I am uncertain at this point whether the CAN bus input is just a Speed message and the EPAS does the assist calculation itself or if there is a requested assist message and the ECU does the thinking. The only way to use a potentiometer would be to have a microprocessor built in that converted the potentiometer input to a CAN message.
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
If it is calculated by the EPAS which I suspect it is I would have the ECU output a modified vehicle speed output message. For example rather than sending a message from the ECU to the EPAS saying the car is going 50 MPH I would alter the multiplier to say the car is going 100 MPH. This would in effect reduce the power steering assist. If you made a simple circuit with a potentiometer and processor that output the CAN message and altered it by potentiometer position it would have the same effect.
davidnunndavidnunnMember
Larry,

That's the way EZ Electric did the prototype. They mounted the VSS at the speedometer end of the cable (under the dash), then used a cable a few inches long to connect the VSS to the speedometer. I'm sure you could order it that way. They told me they could also supply a GPS VSS.

I already had a VSS, since I'd converted my OEM speedometer to electric operation years ago. The VSS I had was made by Veglia for a bunch of different '80's Italian cars (Ferrari, Alfa 164, etc.) including the Pantera Si. That's it in the photo below. I sent it to EZ Electric so they could calibrate their EPAS electronics to work with it. I then used an Autometer GPS unit to drive my speedometer.

Speaking of electric speedometers, SpeedHut has an interesting new product for converting mechanical speedometers to GPS operation. It's a GPS/VSS box that drives a short speedometer cable that screws into your mechanical speedometer.

http://www.speedhut.com/ecomme...rive-Speed-Converter

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goodrocgoodrocMember
quote:
Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
While on the VSS topic, anyone have any wisdom on mounting the VSS unit under the dash, at the speedometer, instead of at the ZF angle adaptor?

With correct adapter fittings, seems it could be completely hidden under the dash and thus not require running wires from engine bay.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Larry


Larry there is not enough space behind the speedo to fit the speed sensor there. It really is not a big job to pull the wire thru and strapped to the speedo cable. It is for sure faster than fumbling around behind the speedo and in worst case removing the dash. If you insist to fit it behind the speedo there is however an option using a 90° adapter and the benefit is that they come with various ratios so that you can get your speedo to show accurate speed. I fitted my speed sensor at the ZF together with a 13% ratio decrease adapter (180°) so that my speedo is now accurate. It looks like a christmas tree coming out of the ZF but that didn't bother me so far.

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lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
They mounted the VSS at the speedometer end of the cable (under the dash), then used a cable a few inches long to connect the VSS to the speedometer. I'm sure you could order it that way.

Thanks, David.

That seems like a cleaner and "simpler???" approach for the VSS signal.

Good to know it is likely an option from them.

Any idea why they went with the ZF mounted solution?

Larry
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
The steering input is derived from the torque sensor in the steering column and speed is from the VSS but might be translated by the BCM in the serial port or through the CAN communication. This is very difficult for a backyard wrench turner to address this need. To accomplish this a microprocessor needs to be programmed to fake the BCM signal."

I strongly suspect that is what the after-market units using a potentiometer are doing.

To do the assist properly, two inputs are needed:

tire resistance, measured by sensing the torque needed to rotate steering wheel. This is done internally on the EPS shaft.

level of assist, dependent on vehicle speed and controlled by an external-to-the EPS unit VSS input.... or the potentiometer through a suitable controller.

As for the internal torque sensor, this little YouTube video with a cut-away unit helps in displaying the internal workings of an EPS.

https://youtu.be/H-kBebxMPrw

Larry

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davidnunndavidnunnMember
quote:
Larry wrote:
Any idea why they went with the ZF mounted solution?


Larry,

They went with the VSS mounted on the transaxle because it made the installation a bit easier. The VSS they use is made by VDO. As I mentioned, they are quite happy to supply which ever VSS option suits the customer.

Just to clarify, the under-dash VSS doesn't mount directly to the speedometer, it connects to the speedometer by a short speedo cable.
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

So if I am getting your thought on this right, you think the EPS just needs a 12v power source and a way to know how fast the vehicle is moving? That is a "stand alone"?
Wouldn't that make the signal from the VSS necessary and that signal what would be modified somehow with the "dimmer switch", probably with some kind of a mini circuit contained within to 'translate' that signal to a CAN signal if it is not already?

What type of signal does a VSS produce now?


In a sense yes, most modern vehicle modules are just that. They each control their own items and talk to each other via CAN to gain more info. For example an abs module will have four wheel speed sensors. The speed sensors will output either a digital square wave or a sine wave. The abs unit will count these pulses and calculate wheel speed. Rather than trying to connect the four wheel speed sensors to other devices which would have to each do their own calculations the ABS unit merely tells the other modules what the speeds are. As for the EPAS unit it is not quite so simple as a speed input and power. There is a master module in the car which is kind of like a hub. This is usually the BCM or the dash cluster. This module has to first send out a wake up command to all of the other modules to get them ready to receive and send data. After that the modules start to transmit their respective data and receive relevant data from other modules. This is what the Cobalt EPAS is looking for. Without knowing the exact identifier and configuration of the CAN bus data required the EPAS will not be fully functional. For interest sake A can bus message looks something like
000005a1 8 11 22 33 44 55 66 77 88
Imagine a hundred of these flying around the can bus per second. Now imagine trying to figure out which one of those is the one you are looking for. Once you find it you then have to figure out its structure. This is why there aren't a lot of guys out there doing this. Some of the older EPAS units dont use this such as the MR2 units however most if not all of the new ones do.
C comp2Member
In is interesting to note that CAN communication is different then say your computer on a network. On a computer network when you communicate with something you create a direct link and flow communication back and forth.

A CAN Bus network is a chatty network. There are no direct links but rather all devises are spewing out data or information. If 2 talk at the same time the device with higher priority is allowed to speak.

If you want to know information from something you simply listen. If an EGT sends out a value you wait for a message to pass down the network from the EGT and just read the values as it goes by.
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:
Well I'm a mechanical guy and got left behind when we started talking about buses in Canada!

Does this $150 unit provide what is required to use full functionality of the Cobalt/Vue EPAS? It seems popular with the classic Mustang guys.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Ch...AOSwiDFYQ2tN&vxp=mtr

One of my buddies just picked up one of those. I will let you know how it works as soon as I hear from him.
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
So my buddy says he got his working with the little black box with the rheostat. He used the VUE column. The maker of the little unit said it would not work on the Cobalt system so there is definitely a difference in data. He does not have functional speed assist yet however will be doing some testing with integrating it into his megasquirt ECU. His one gripe is that there is no self centering.
davidnunndavidnunnMember
quote:
PanteraDoug wrote:
The other thing about these kits is how sure are "you" about the dependability of them in a high performance vehicle, i.e., what do you do if the unit fails at over 100 mph and you can't steer it?


If my EZ Electric system failed at 100 mph, I wouldn't be aware of it because it provides no power assist at that kind of speed. Even at low speeds, if it fails or I decide to disable it, the steering reverts back to normal, non-assisted, Pantera steering.

quote:
PanteraDoug wrote:
So, ON THIS BOLT IN "KIT" (supposedly a PLUG AND PLAY), Either you are going through the floor with this two inches or the steering wheel is going to be 2" closer to you OR you are doing away with the original Pantera lock/ignition switch location and the ignition cover?


I'm sure Scott will correct me if I'm wrong, but the only issue with the EPAS Performance kit (as discussed earlier in this topic) that SACC now sells, is the mounting bracket (as developed by EPAS Performance) being off by about two inches,...that's all. The unit is not two inches too long. The issue is mounting location (height) not length. Scott is developing a revised bracket that will rectify the issue.
Last edited by davidnunn
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Doug, IF I was to install power steering (for my little wife's convenience) on our Pantera, I would go with the electro-hydraulic unit from a '92-'95 U.S-spec MR-2 Turbo. That unit uses a conventional power-assisted rack and a hydraulic pump driven directly by a starter-sized electric motor inches away from the rack up front. The hoses are very short as is the response. It has it's own stand-alone black box that takes speed info from an electric speedo, if you choose to use the variable ratio assist. Very popular with off-road rally guys who use hand-made emulators instead of factory sensors. Developed by a close friend who has one in his 350-Chev powered Huffacker Fiero (ex-GTU racer). He now autocrosses it. With 12" gumballs up front, it's a handful without PS! He also has one in a Northstar V-8 powered Fiero street car.
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Scott is not always completely revealing.

"Daddy, why is the sky blue". "Because". OK. Doesn't help the discussion.

Pictures are helpful.

I'm very glad that you feel safe with yours David. Smiler

I've had two here. The Vue and the Fiesta. Neither will turn without being powered up. Loose power, locked up.

I've already said I'm not installing this thing. That's for a bunch of reasons but I am interested in knowing how they work.

Act as you will but unlike others I'm not going to stomp around and act like a juvenile just because no one else agrees with me.

If you say I'm wrong, you are probably right, but when were you speaking to my wife? Eeker


Doug, WTF are you on, do you have any idea how ridiculous many of your posts and rants are? Do you realize you ARE the one stomping around like a juvenile! If you can't add anything to the discussion then just say nothing and follow along with others who are trying to have and adult conversation and like me you might learn something about the challenges along the way.

Julian
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
I will now withdraw from this discussion by popular demand.

Baby, please don't go
Baby, please don't go
Baby, please don't go
Down to New Orleans
You know I love you so
Baby, please don't


It's hard enough for us Yanks to figure you out, Doug. Big Grin

Being British and all probably makes it even more difficult for Julian. Smiler

We will now all join hands and sing Kum ba yah.



Larry
noquarternoquarterMember
quote:
Doug, WTF are you on, do you have any idea how ridiculous many of your posts and rants are? Do you realize you ARE the one stomping around like a juvenile! If you can't add anything to the discussion then just say nothing and follow along with others who are trying to have and adult conversation and like me you might learn something about the challenges along the way.


I second that. I've seen so many serious technical threads ruined by PanteraDoug. Both by "humour", not my kind, with youtubes of old ladies fighting with handbags (WTF?), and with very firm statements on what will work, sometimes simply not correct. I, for a while, saw it as my God given obligation to correct these statements, so that newbies on this forum didn't make a costly/dangerous mistake, but I have given up.

This isn't Facebook...
C comp2Member
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Doug, IF I was to install power steering (for my little wife's convenience) on our Pantera, I would go with the electro-hydraulic unit from a '92-'95 U.S-spec MR-2 Turbo. That unit uses a conventional power-assisted rack and a hydraulic pump driven directly by a starter-sized electric motor inches away from the rack up front. The hoses are very short as is the response. It has it's own stand-alone black box that takes speed info from an electric speedo, if you choose to use the variable ratio assist. Very popular with off-road rally guys who use hand-made emulators instead of factory sensors. Developed by a close friend who has one in his 350-Chev powered Huffacker Fiero (ex-GTU racer). He now autocrosses it. With 12" gumballs up front, it's a handful without PS! He also has one in a Northstar V-8 powered Fiero street car.


My feeling on this after reviewing as much as I could get, I personally would only feel comfortable with a dedicated EPS rack. A real bolt in.

TY for this info Boss, I do appreciate it. I might even investigate that application...just to expand my horizons? Smiler


I will now withdraw from this discussion by popular demand.



Mine is a dedicated rack but is anything but a bolt on. I absolutely love the outcome but the process was quite a job.

I think the first thing is to locate a rack. The Pantera rack is not right an causes Bump steer by it's dimensions. People mask the problem by changing the rack height but you cannot get rid of it until the rack is addressed.

The ratio of the rack and movement of the rack must also be figured out. The hose positions need to be in a position you can work with as well.

If all that could be sorted out the electric pump is the easy part.

With the rack I used I spent much time in a suspension program working out the geometry. Even this only got me "close". When I got done bump steer was effected by both height of the rack and the distance between the pivot point.

The width of the rack was a adjusted using a threaded shaft. I cut the rack and tack welded the threaded rod in place and used a rebuild able ball joint so I could weld it on.

Once adjustments were made it was welded in place.

To get the rack to fit some structure was cut out. To fix that I made a box the rack bolted to then bolted the box in to replace the metal and even added a little rigidity in the area.

The rack is adjustable in height on the box.:



To fine tune the bump steer I spent a month of spare time messing with rack height and the rack width before welding it all up and tightening down the adjustments.



The result was Zero bump steer in the full rand of suspension travel (+/-) 1/32" full range:



C comp2Member
With my setup I mounted the electric power steering pump where people put the battery drop down box:





This is both good and bad. It's a good spot to put it but a terrible spot to work on. Tightening hoses was working with cutting off and re-welding wrenches and getting your hands where you can't see what your doing.

Second issue is if I need to work on it again I have to remove the cooling tubes:


I am 100% pleased with how it operates. I like the ability to turn it off. I would however not recommend the exact route I took to get here.
However, it may lead to a better route!!

Perhaps drop the pump in from the top like the drop in batteries.

The real solution to this entire equation is finding or having made for public consumption a power steering rack purposely configured for this car.

If that could be done the process gets a 1000x easier.
davidnunndavidnunnMember
Comp2,

How much too long is the Pantera's steering rack? Would moving the front spindles further out, by using longer front control arms, have the same effect as shortening the rack?

As far as the electric PS pump is concerned; it may help to use a pump with a remote reservoir. I believe late model Mini's use an electric PS pump with a remote reservoir. Ultimate Power Steering in Australia has one but it's a bit pricey (AUD $1,300 / http://www.ultimatepowersteeri...r-steering-pump-kit/ ). It also looks like the late model Mini pump to me.
C comp2Member
quote:
Originally posted by David_Nunn:
Comp2,

How much too long is the Pantera's steering rack? Would moving the front spindles further out, by using longer front control arms, have the same effect as shortening the rack?


I think it was about 1.5". Been a while since I looked at it. It has to do with the relationship between the pivot point on the steering rack and the pivot points on the control arms so changing the length of the control arm does not change anything.

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