engine hp

Hani,

which Lunati cam is installed, do you have the part number, or the cam specifications?

If I can see the cam specs, I'll give you the old farts mental dyno.

George

Short answer.....

not enough

Never enough....

Larry

I guess it would be just a tad under 400 HP at the flywheel. How close did I get????

It's the LUN-00093LK
Summit says the cam has 532/562 lift, duration is 224-234 @ 050, RPM range 2000-6000. lunati says lift is 536/536, which one is right?
I did not put the car on the dyno yet, but i will be happy with 400 fwhp. I will let you know when i do.
Thanks Hani

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Hani,

which Lunati cam is installed, do you have the part number, or the cam specifications?

If I can see the cam specs, I'll give you the old farts mental dyno.

George

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hani Mikati:
It's the LUN-00093LK Summit says the cam has 532/562 lift, lunati says lift is 536/536, which one is right? Thanks Hani[QUOTE]

My "guess" is that Summit is correct and the Lunati figure is a misprint, because that exhaust lobe profile would then be identical to the intake lobe profile of the next size camshaft (#00094).

As far as your motor's output is concerned, my mental dyno says 370 to 380 bhp at the flywheel, 295 to 300 at the rear wheels. So long as your exhaust system is not too restrictive, and the ignition and carburetion are dialed in while on the dyno.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Thanks George, I think next time i will go with custom grind roller cam, but for now this will do the job.

Thanks again
Hani

Fun topic. I am almostfinished with this engine for my '72. What do you think?

408 Windsor stroker 9.5 block
scat 4" stroke crank
Scat 6.200 H-Beam rods
KB750 pistons 11.2 cr
hydraulic roller engine via retrofit lifters (link bar type).
cam specs - Trick Flow TFS 51402001
lift 0.542/0.563 at .50
dur 224/232 @ 120
advertised duration 286/294
cylinder heads AFR 205
Victor Jr intake
Mighty demon 750cfm carb.

Any hp/torque guesses?

Do I win a prize if I guess right?

Marc,

I am personally very familiar with the parts installed in Hani's motor, having run several Clevelands with flat tappet hydraulic cams through a dyno back in my day. So making a mental dyno run was easy for me in his particular case.

Your motor presents a challenge as I have never dyno'd a motor with a hydraulic roller cam nor do I have an idea how the AFR heads flow or respond on the dyno. I'll kinda walk you through my mental process though, if you'll find that entertaining:

The AFR heads would be big heads on a smaller displacement motor, but on a 408 cubic incher, they should be quite docile. The specs of the roller cam are also quite docile for a motor displacing 408 cubic inches, and especially docile for a motor with Windsor heads (smallish ports). I am totally unfamiliar with the AFR heads as far as what they are flowing at 0.542" lift. I have no idea what you have in the way of exhaust, which is very important. Finally, the Victor junior intake & big carburetor will make more torque above 5000 rpm, and less below 5000 rpm. This will improve the peak bhp number, and decrease the peak torque number. The carb looks sized very well to the motor. Not being familair with the parts, it's hard for me to guess the power band, I'm assuming peak bhp with the mild cam will be achieved well below 6000 rpm. The single plane manifold doesn't quite compliment the rest of the parts, a dual plane, like the Edelbrock Air Gap or Performer, would be a better match. But the single plane manifold will help stretch the motors legs a few hundred rpm higher before the power band flattens out.

The compression ratio looks too high for this mild combination.

Again, assuming the exhaust system is sorted out, not restricting power, and assuming the carb & ignition will be calibrated on the dyno, I'll guess 450 ft/lbs torque, 450 bhp. The peak bhp number may be below your expectations, but I am assuming the bhp peak is occuring around 5500 rpm, and therefore it will not be much higher than the torque figure at that rpm. The Victor junior manifold can very well slide the peak bhp a little higher in rpm and therefore the peak bhp number may also grow a bit.

After you dyno the motor, get back to us and let me know how far off I am. I'll find that entertaining myself.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

I will let you know exactly how it comes out on the dyno. I have set aside some time with my local race shop to do the testing. I really appreciate the comments and the insight into the engine. I am going off of research and reading to make a "streetable" engine that performs rather well for the occasional track day. To date, I have not purchased the intake manifold or the cylinder heads. The other thought was to go with the Victor Jr heads. If I mix these with the air gap rpm manifold do you think it may be a bit more livable for everyday driving? I was also afraid of going too radical on the cam as I didn't want to push the hp and torque too high into the rpms.
Originally I was shooting for 10.5 cr but the new KB 750 forgings calculated to be 11.2.
I don't really know where to go with the exhaust either. I was thinking of the headers offered at PI for the Windsor.
Luckily, I still have time to make some changes. I was hoping for around 500hp 475lb/ft of torque or so.
Again, thanks for the insight and I will let you know what changes I make and how the numbers come out.

- Marc

George,

How does this cam sound?

duration @.050
244/252

lift
.600/.612
114 valve lash.

Will that one work a bit better for my combo? I am getting dizzy with cam choices.

You need to enter the timing events @.050. IO, IC, EO, EC.

Actually lash is set at zero for intake and exhaust. The lobe separation is 114.

I am working on the intake and exhaust opening calculations. I am working off of the website so I am searching for the necessary information.

You don't need the lash. You need the timing card that shows at what degree intake opens and closes, what degree exhaust opens and closes. You need lift. The computer will calculate everything else.

Marc,

If you haven't purchased pistons yet, you need to do something about the compression.

In regards to the cam, I would prefer to know what kind of cam it is (flat tappet, roller, hydraulic, solid) and who makes it & the model no. or part no., I can then go to their web site & take a lookee at the lobe centers, etc.

But before recommending specific parts for the motor, I would really like to know what you are trying to achieve, what is important to you about the various aspects you're building into this motor, the many ways you intend to use your car.

Two more comments:

First: As a generality single plane & dual plane intakes will "cross" or make equal torque somewhere around 5000 rpm. Below that rpm the dual plane intake makes more torque, above that rpm the single plane intake makes more torque. Since our motors tend to make peak bhp above 5000 rpm, the peak bhp number will be less with a dual plane intake. But if you look at everything below 5000 rpm, the dual plane intake kicks ass on the single plane intake.

If you want the looks of the single plane, I understand & you need not be self conscious about saying so. I'm just explaining the give & take of the choice. If you want to wind the motor out way above 6000 rpm the single plane is the way to go.

Second: I prefer not to shoot for high peak numbers. I wish the magazines would emphasize the highest average torque over the powerband. For a street car that would be 1500 to 6000 rpm. A wide flat torque curve will yield the highest average torque.

A tilted or sloping torque curve, the kind drag racers shoot for, will yield higher peak values, but they don't yield the most average torque and such a torque curve wont be the fastest on a road track, or on the street.

It takes a period of reprogramming your mind, as to what is desirable, before you can overcome advertising & think this way. Of course, the peak torque & peak bhp numbers do little to give you the information you need once you've reprogrammed yourself, so then you go around like me, dissatisfied because nobody provides relevant data. lol......

So tell me us about how you will be using your car, the goals you have for the motor.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Let me see...

The pistons are on the way so I am a little stuck there but I can change the heads and the size of the combustion chambers. That could lower the cr a bit. That cr is based upon a 58cc chamber. If I go to a 64cc, I could be down in the upper 10s. The purpose of this motor is mostly for track days and street use. I don't really want to rev it to the moon. I will honestly spend most of the time winding up mountain roads and so forth in a mildly spirited fashion. My guess is that it will rarely see much over 5000 rpm. I may see a run or two at the drags for fun but I am more into the road courses.
The cam in question is a Schneider cam. It is a hydraulic roller cam. The part number is 32126 and the grind number is 300-08RH.
I currently have the option of changing the heads, carb, intake, exhaust and ignition. The rest is basically finished. I can still change the cam as the short block is not assembled. I have the mild cam in the block but I can pull it and install the new one before I assemble the rest of the bottom end.

Thanks a bunch for the help guys!

- Marc

George,

Thanks for the insight as well.

I see your point in the numbers. I would really be happy with what will live on the street but is more tuned for the track days and so forth. I do need more of a flat power curve as opposed to anything really peaky.
Some of the things I have done so far to prepare the car might help with my intended purpose.
I have added the chassis rigidity kit from Precision Proformance. I installed the upper and lower front and rear pieces. I have installed the adjustable coil overs, poly bushings, camber locks, brake and cooling upgrades, etc. I have converted the uprights to the tapered roller bearings and went with the billet axles to be safe as well. I have safety-wired the zf and am now thinking about non-intrusive rollbar options for track days. The car is a group 4 clone and should be a lot of fun. I haven't driven it yet. I have been working on it the enitre time I have owned it.

Marc,

I've been checking the various parts out,trying to get a feel for them. I've decided to focus in on a powerband of 2000 to 6000 revvvvvs. Anybody that knows me knows that it is predictable of me to choose that powerband. It's a good compromise between drivability, good vacuum at idle, power and reliability. It is by no means a sedate powerband. Winding a motor out to 6 grand is enough for most people. There are many motors used in various forms of motorsport with no more powerband than that.

Having written that, I'll mention I like your choice in cylinder heads. They flow pretty good for a Windsor, the next step down, the 185cc head, would definitely be a restriction to a motor of this displacement.

Please do order the largest combustion chamber you can. Here's the problem, those heads are manufactured with a 351 cubic inch motor in mind. Same thing goes for 351W cams. But with your stroker, you have to make allowances for the extra displacement.

As far as intakes go, I recommend the Edelbrock air gap manifold. I've seen those intakes polished up & they look every bit as mean as a single plane intake. But most important, you will like the manner in which that manifold pulls coming out of turns much better than the single plane.

As far as camshafts go, you want something like the big Scheider cam you last mentioned. For an off the shelf cam I'm going to recommend the Comp Cams 304HR for your motor, which should give you a powerband of 2500 to 6000 rpm, or there abouts. However, I would STRONGLY advise you to contact Mark McKeown of MME Racing, http://www.mmeracing.com , telephone (301) 246-9225. He can taylor a cam specifically for your power goals, the displacement of your motor, the flow of the AFR heads, the compression ratio too. The cam will be designed for your combination & therefore make more power in your powerband than any off the shelf cam ever could, and put bigger smiles on your face. You'll find his cam kits are competitively priced, maybe $50 smackers more than the big discounters. But his knowledge is worth way more than that. Make sure you mention to him you're building a Windsor motor, because when he hear's Pantera, he'll automatically assume you're building a cleveland.

I'll also advise you to speak with him about head & intake choices as well. He's a smart guy, and engineer by schooling, has lots of dyno experience under his belt. He's an honest & helpful business man too.

Lets get that motor buttoned up & get you on the road.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

I have contacted them and Heather is going to send the information I supplied to Mark. I appreciate the help and hopefully Mark will set me up.

- Marc