Which A331? The Torker or the spider?
P/N: M9424- A331
Two manifolds have that part number. One is the low Torker type, the other is the tall spider
I have the Torker manifold that has a 1" spacer welded on top. Also have changed to a billet 750CFM carb. from Competition Carburation per Dave McLain's recommendation. I also using Pantera Parts Connection headers with a 3" collector and 3" straight thru exhaust pipes.
If you would like to read Dan Jones writeup regarding my engine click on the following link: ***************************/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=577
Mark
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Mark Swarek's 384C with A3 heads and A331 intake
@Donny Dotson posted:I refuse to pay 3000.00 plus for s set of heads for a dumb 351 C. I should have built a Windsor but, I guess I'm as dumb as a Cleveland.
Those Cleveland heads are likely worth every penny! Why do you think builders purchase canted valve (Cleveland) heads and put them on a Windsor to make a 'Clevor'?
You get what you pay for.
@ehpantera posted:You get what you pay for.
A very interesting engine for sure.
I had read previously that the A331 Torker needed some work to even the flow. It had 4 good runners and 4 bad ones. I suspect that's what was done there?
That's a lot of cam for a street car. Kind of a "Pro-street" profile but I have no doubts it's very effective on a track.
I personally like the A3 heads even over the C302's. The C's that I have seen prepped wind up with ports very similar in volume to the A's.
They are borderline for my 357 but they absolutely will light up a 383.
My cam is a 244@ .050, .606 lift. and that's about as much as I'd go on the street. As a matter of fact I'm considering going down to the 236. You need at least around .588 actual to make these heads work. Under that and you are wasting them.
I'd suspect that the Holley probably has better numbers overall then my 48ida's do but I doubt that the Weber manifold is overdone or that it could be improved anywhere. The only thing that you could do with it is lengthen the runners. They are already at 51mm.
Maybe they could be reduced but I don't see where that helps anything?
It already has line of sight to the valves and the distance is thought to be optimum.
I'd want to dyno with the 180° headers. I'd like to see where they peak on the dyno. I already think that it's at 6,500 now but the dyno would be the safe way to test that.
The other thing would be to see if the engine benefits from 51mm throttles v. 48. I suspect that it does but don't know what that does for street drive ability. It could be a negative.
Thanks for posting your build sheet.
Two thoughts for future builders: first, not many U.S-cast 351-C blocks will survive an 0.040" overbore. Back in the day, Ford recommended only 0.003" oversize and yes- that decimal is correct. A few that have tried big bores found the remaining cylinder walls were so thin, piston rings would not seat due to wall flexing, so such engines were forever oil burners. Thoroughly sonic-test any candidate blocks or use a siamese wall Aussie, racing or Tim Meyer's block! Note- not all 'Aussie' blocks are thick-wall, either. The ones that are, weigh about 50 lbs more (200+ lbs) than OEM.
Second- sleeving more than one (1.0) cylinder on each bank of OEM 351-C blocks can and has caused block cracking at the intersection of the lower end of the sleeves and the center main bearing supports, due to the amount of supporting cast iron that must be cut away. A multi-sleeve block may be OK for a while around town, but I would not go for high power with it! The only reason early drag racers got away with this is because they furnace-brazed big sleeves in place! And that forced remachining of every surface in the block including head surfaces, cam & main bearings and lifter bores, due to heat distortion!
Yes Mr. Boss, after monkeying around with two other standard bore blocks and finding them not worth spit I decided to go back to my original block that was 40 over. I refuse to pay a gazillion dollars for a new block even if it was available. I'm not going to pound on this engine, I will just drive it to the swap meet and the store or just make a excuse to drive it. It will not be a rocket but will still be kinda cool to drive until somebody wants to buy it. I think keeping the original numbers engine is a good idea. I really appreciate everyone's input and help on this car because there is a lot not so ordinary stuff that goes along with a Pantera. I will be installing the engina tomorrow. BTW I spent more money and time revamping the heating and A/C system than rebuilding the engine.
I realize that going 0.040" over is pushing the limits. I show the engine no mercy and am very fortunate to have it stand up to my abuse. I am most likely running on borrowed time.
The very first time I drove this thing it smoked like the devil, overheated and puked everywhere. The block was already .040 so I elected to re-sleeve all 8 holes to try to keep it running cooler with a standard bore. This is the first time I have done this because I always just would throw a block in the scrap bin. Viable Cleveland blocks have got hard to find and after market ones are moocho denaro. Standard pistons were hard to get as well I have found. If and when I build another SB ford it will be a Windsor, parts are somewhat cheep and widely available. Getting 600 HP can be got without hardly trying. A Hemi headed 429 would be bad ass, has anyone shoehorned one in one of these cars?
Some early 351-Windsor blocks turn out to have the same thin cylinder walls as was infamous for Clevelands, as the Ford Casting Plant #1 in Cleveland switched its casting technique to the new upside-down 'thin-wall' method. So using a W block is not an automatic free pass in overboring. I've also heard of wall problems with early 302 blocks, for the same reason.
On a pair of 0.030"-over blocks- one later blew during a SS race, and another that cracked after a backfire (cold engine) on the starting line, (coolant running out the right tailpipe), I found pieces of off-center cylinder wall only 0.070" thick. Chevy guys get nervous if their cylinder walls drop below 0.200"- which NO factory Cleveland ever had. I suggest sonic testing ANY '70-74 V-8 Ford blocks for wall thickness checks, if you intend to bore oversize. YMMV....
Donny,If you are interested in a Hemi Pantera google: www.hemipanter.se
I've seen a Pantera years ago at an auction with a real Boss 429 in it. Looked pretty good too. It would be interesting to talk to Don Byers(sp?) about a Kaase Boss 460 or 520 with fuel injection.... Don apparently has a Ford 460 big block conversion he does in shop and the Kaase engine uses that as the base.
@bosswrench posted:Some early 351-Windsor blocks turn out to have the same thin cylinder walls as was infamous for Clevelands, as the Ford Casting Plant #1 in Cleveland switched its casting technique to the new upside-down 'thin-wall' method. So using a W block is not an automatic free pass in overboring. I've also heard of wall problems with early 302 blocks, for the same reason.
On a pair of 0.030"-over blocks- one later blew during a SS race, and another that cracked after a backfire (cold engine) on the starting line, (coolant running out the right tailpipe), I found pieces of off-center cylinder wall only 0.070" thick. Chevy guys get nervous if their cylinder walls drop below 0.200"- which NO factory Cleveland ever had. I suggest sonic testing ANY '70-74 V-8 Ford blocks for wall thickness checks, if you intend to bore oversize. YMMV....
Just two weeks ago I saw a NEW NASCAR XE block. It was brand new, in a Ford box with the original Ford Service Parts order label on it, from the ordering dealer. It had the Gelong icon and was still in the cosmolene.
It was standard bore and came with a sonic testing chart. There were no cylinders less then .280" thick.
It was the first one I saw close up and I think it was closer to 100 pounds heavier then my D2 4 bolt block. What a chunk of iron...and yes it APPEARED to be legit!
I didn't buy it because the price was $3500 FIRM. Of course if I had the money I'd probably be staring at it right now.
That B9 might be the one that they ran at Bonneville. Mike Cook may have something to do with that as well, if you can find him.
You are no better off on a production Windsor. They are thin wall casting like all Ford PRODUCTION blocks are.
I think the latest "Ford Racing" aftermarket "Boss 302" block (a 351W) WAS the most reasonable at something like $2,200 from Summit?
As stated previously, the Windsor block in a Pantera chassis is going to take "just a little bit" of modification and if you aren't using Cleveland heads, you were missing the point entirely. Using Windsor heads isn't really where you want to go.
You should have by now (50 years later) seen the data I would think?
It's not fair, people get to go shopping here in my retarded state and just walk out the door with 940.00 or less and the employees can't do anything. All I want for Xmas is a 800 HP engine, a wicked trans that could handle it, some super high quality shocks/control arms and some dingle balls. Lets go Brandon, send me a check!
Can't help putting my engineer hat on sometimes. I have been skeptical of the drivetrain power loss figures -- 50 to 75 hp, 20%, or whatever is often times claimed. Say you have a 350 hp engine and lose 20% for 280 rwhp. That is 70 hp loss. Each hp is approximately 750 watts. That is 52.5 kilowatts of power loss. Maybe the short duration of a dyno pull is the saving grace here.
Donnie, lets put this in perspective. You want an 800 hp engine and a trans to match. The old adage applies here. How fast to you want to go and how much money do you have? The two go hand in hand. The pantera is an appreciating classic with some pretty strong values for some of the more tastefully restored cars. Spending $4,000 on a aftermarket engine block to me is a sound investment in the long term longevity of your car. 800 hp naturally aspirated is probably a car that I don't want to drive on the street very often. The pantera begs for a high horsepower endurance engine. George has a formula for a 500 hp or more engine using a stock cleveland block. I used this for the basis of my build and I couldn't be happier. As I understand it anything over 600 hp is the limit of the ZF. Once again: How fast do you want to go? How much money do you have?
With that cam, you could have gotten away with more compression which would give you more HP. With flat forged single relief forged pistons, you can realize 10.7:1 compression with closed chamber early 4BBL heads. Maybe just a change to closed chamber heads may pay big dividends?