Ethanol E85

jwr, I have a very strong dislike for the present administration.
The fact of the matter is that he does represent the current aditude in this country. Remember the electoral vote map with the blue and the red states?
Remember how the industrialized states so strongly were against Bush? The exception being Ohio which went for Bush?
Well, in a nut shell, the Republicans aren't doing anything that a Republican doesn't normally do.
The problem is that there are no crediable Democrats to step up to the plate and take some swings.
The biggest Democratic pussie-wimp of recent memory is John Kerry.
Until the time that the US returns to a two party system, this crap is going to continue.
The economy is not healthy.
It is down over 23% at the blue collar working levels, and up a number at the top that enables the GNP to show a +2.5%.
Now I remember being lectured about how nieve I was about all of this by a CEO. Basically being told that the "board" could fire his ass at any minute and have security escort him to the door, just like me.
The difference being that he would get about a $30 million golden finger, and I just get the finger.
Wake up all you corporate types. You are just hired help too. When the company is done using you as the "house nigger" you will be swept up and put out in the trash too.
You are American Labor. How about supporting it once in awhile?
Also, my banking friends also joined in and pointed out what a big horses ass I am. I already knew, they don't need to point it out.
In a highly developed society, the GNP is the indication of the money growth.
Sofisticed money growth in a highly developed society no longer relys on hard goods such as build cars, houses, steel, lumber, etc.
It comes from creating capital without working. In other words being a bank.
The demise of the US is because one can no longer work hard to produce a product.
One must be a bank and not work and just lend out money to create capital at rate just high enough as not to be considered inflationary.
Wouldn't want to anger the FED!
Bottom line, screw 'em all, the little man already lost, and enjoy driving your Pantera or anything while you still can.
Personally I'm up for a bloody revolution in the US. Jefferson was wrong, there hasen't been one every five years. Maybe there should be one, once in awhile?

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Jeff,

have I understood your comment correct, that you believe demand for oil is inelastic, meaning constant?

May I point out that the consumption of oil in China is escalating at an unbelievable rate. It will not take too long before China consumes more oil than the US. To put this another way, demand in China will soon double the worlds demand for oil prodcution.

Consumption in the US has also increased dramatically, as we have evolved from 1 and 2 car families, to 3 and 4 car families, as the fuel economy of the cars we purchase declines (due to the sales of big SUVs), as the length of the average commute increases, and as the population escalates.

your friend on the DTBB

What you say is true with respect to longer term demand/supply curves. However the market that causes these sudden, local price spikes is more of a short term market. And we are talking about the price of downstream gasoline here, not oil. Furthermore, the spikes are not incremental as would be suggested by the long term demand issues you note. A month ago, I was paying around $2.10, now I'm paying $2.99. That's over a 40% increase in 30 days.

IMHO, it is in these short term downstream markets that consumption is relatively inelastic. People and companies don't and probably can't adjust their driving behaviors to significantly reduce consumption in such a short term. Routes still need to be covered, commutes still need to be driven, soccer games still need to be attended.

So why the sudden spike in gasoline? All that's left is the supply curve. And who controls the supply curve?

In the longer term, the supply curve should adjust by adding capacity but in the short term, it's a seller's market. So are the oil company profits obscene? I don't have the answer. The accounting cost analysis would be difficult to track, intentionally, I might add.

The answers could be coincidence(could have been what with Katrina, but that's a global warming issue that somehow seems related,) very poor management of refining capacity by the oil companies, benign neglect by the oil companies knowing that this was likely to happen, or gouging.

What do you think?

Jeff
6559

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:
...What do you think? ...

Good morning Jeff. I think I should have remained in bed. He, he, he ... Oh, my head.

I think it is simple economics, supply & demand.

Supply is down, because that mother of all hurricanes that slammed into Louisiana last year put a dent in the US refining capacity. I am also told by oil industry people that, just like power plants, oil refineries are aging, new ones aren't being built or even planned. The environmentalist lobby normally has the finger pointing at them for this situation. Sometimes the index finger, other times the middle finger.

The near sighted way American buinessmen run corporate America, pushing for short term profit, often means the needs of infrastrcuture are neglected to cut costs.

If I were an oil executive, I wouldn't invest in new refineries, when the government & auto makers are working feverishly to produce fuel cell powered autos & hybrids?

One last thought, unleaded gasoline is a commodity on the NYSE. If somebody can make a buck, they are goiong to do so, even if it screws the entire country.

When the subject is infrastructure, I'm a decided socialist. American capitalism has a very bad track record when it comes to planning, building & maintaining infrastructure. So I'll stop here.

your caffein deprived friend on the DTBB

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:
...What do you think? ...

I also think I could stare at my new avatar all day long and not get any work done.

your friend on the DTBB

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Detom,

I dont know who wrote the saying but look it up ... I copied that from a site and it clearly states an OLD IRISH PROVERB. LOL

This wouldnt be the first time the credit went to the wrong person.

R

Actualy I at first thought it was St. Francis of assis, but when I did a search they accredited Rienhold who was a German theologian during WWII. He was also the guy who said at first it was just the jews they came for so we said nothing, and then it was...
I have read some of Neigbors books. I thought the Irish blessing was the one that went, may the road rise up to meet your feet... But none of that matter really. I have posted on a political forum for years now. I have had to quit doing that because I was getting so frustrated. The deeper I dug into things the more frustrating it became. Even on this thread I wrote this big long post that I had to delete because it was too radical. I will probably not comment here much on politics and such. It has been ruined for me.

quote:

I'm gonna' have my nurses push me around in my Pantera.

Make sure they have your catheter tube so it don't get caught on stuff as you speed by. That hurts like hell when you get a good yank on that thing.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
... I will probably not comment here much on politics and such. It has been ruined for me...

Political quote of the day:

"I think it's about time we voted for senators with breasts. After all, we've been voting for boobs long enough."

Clarie Sargent, Arizona senatorial candidate

com'on DeTom, have a giggle....

Just the thought made me wobbly DT, ugh, what a thought, now I can't walk!

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom: I will probably not comment here much on politics and such. It has been ruined for me.

Me too. I don't think people can generally see the big picture.


Gary

I've got cable. I get a good picture.

quote:

com'on DeTom, have a giggle....

I'm sorry george did you say something?? I was just watching those two beach balls floating in the water there.

Detom / Comp2,

For me Politics is just a big game where people play with other peoples lively hood. Generally as you see I'm as straight up as they come and keep me eyes open to the big picture.

It fustrates me to no end so I try to stay on the subject but " they just suck me back in " OK Detom who said that saying ??

Anyway the subject was Ethanol and I read today in our UA Journal a Trade Publication the the Technology is advancing to a point where the farmers will be able to get 3-4 crops per year, and the destilling process advancing to where the two planned will be set next to Sewage Treatment Plants and partcially use Methane Gas from sewage for the Ethanol Process.

So alternate fuel gives us options and we are not backed in to a corner or strong armed .. for the most part anyway.

Oh on a funny note St. Patrick was an Italian so why cant an Irush saying be written by a German??? LOL

Ron

quote:

" they just suck me back in "

Al Pachino in Godfather part three.

Does anyone know how much ethanol is selling for at the pump now? I don't know of any source that would be considered local where I could check.
I heard that there is a shortage of ethanol also.
If we know the cost then one could calculate an approximation as to the cost/gallon/mile vs gasoleen.
Why would ethanol fuel production be considered a more stable market wise then gas? Why would it not have the same issues as gas with not enough refineries to produce it? Why would it benefit switching to ethanol if there isn't enough of that either?
It isn't like the public could have a vehicle to run on either and play ethanol against gas to reduce the price.
Is it the cost of crude that is driving up prices or is it the cost of the refined fuel?
It sounds like it's more a refinery issue.
As far as the wholesalers are concerned, it is not an issue, they just have a higher profit margin.
I suppose that's a difficult situation for them that they will just have to live with?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
...It isn't like the public could have a vehicle to run on either and play ethanol against gas to reduce the price...

Doug,

There are vehicles sold in the US, Brazil and Europe, that can operate on 100% gasoline or ANY mix of gasoline and ethanol or methanol. Ford developed the technology in the 1980s. The motors require special fuel controls to adapt to the varying fuel mixture, there is a sensor mounted in the fuel delivery system to analyze the fuel content, the fuel tank and entire fuel system is built of materials that are compatible with the corrosive properties of the alcohol fuels. Vehicles so equipped are known as flex-fuel vehicles. The list below are the vehicles available in the US with flex-fuel motors.

Ford: Ranger, Crown Victoria and Taurus
GM: Chevy S-10 and GMC Sonoma
Daimler-Chrysler: Plymouth Voyager and Dodge Caravan

your flexible friend on the DTBB

Where do I get a 500hp flex fuel Pantera?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Where do I get a 500hp flex fuel Pantera?

Doug, this is your lucky day. You already have one. All you have to do is mix a half a tank of premium gas with a half tank of a waste product of the refinery process called "Nitromethane". That way you are helping the ecology along by burning up this wate product and getting your 500 horsepower you are after. Now you may notice it run a little ruff at first but that is temporary. Pretty soon it won't run at all, thus cleaning the air and being all eco-friendly.

DT, isn't Nitro $950 per drum? For a waste product, that's just a little more then I wanted to spend.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
When the subject is infrastructure, I'm a decided socialist. American capitalism has a very bad track record when it comes to planning, building & maintaining infrastructure. So I'll stop here.

your caffein deprived friend on the DTBB

I'm with ya on that one. The electric power grid is a fine example about to be in trouble now that it's been deregulated. Too bad, it really worked well for 75 years.

quote:

When the subject is infrastructure, I'm a decided socialist. American capitalism has a very bad track record when it comes to planning, building & maintaining infrastructure. So I'll stop here.

Compared to which country ?? Theres not many that even compare to what we have in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
DT, isn't Nitro $950 per drum? For a waste product, that's just a little more then I wanted to spend.

Doug environmentalism doesn't come cheap. Tree hugging is an expensive habit to aquire.

DT, first you were "hugging" your Pantera, now you're "hugging" trees? Look out for the poison oak trees.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
DT, first you were "hugging" your Pantera, now you're "hugging" trees? Look out for the poison oak trees.

I also check for squirells too. Little buggers like to bite it when you are poking them in the head with it.

Looks like I missed alot not growing up in dem woods

Them squirrels is only after the nuts, you know!

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
Them squirrels is only after the nuts, you know!

those bastards!

I think you can make ethanol from nuts

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
DT, first you were "hugging" your Pantera, now you're "hugging" trees? Look out for the poison oak trees.

Doug,I know you from the city and everything,but there ain't no poison oak trees,just poison oak plants.Bad little bastards too.

Thanks for that info. You won't find me huggin' or smokin' either.

Ok so this is whats planned for Alternantive Energy this year.

Ethanol Plants - Minn. Nebr.
Bio Diesel - Oklah.
Geo Thermal - Utah
Synthetic Gas and Fuel Plants - No Locations

So there is some indication that Alternative Fuel is coming.

What about the vegtable oil powered vehicles? Did you see that one in the papers?
We need a vehicle that runs on garbage like in "back to the future". That would be the ultimate "green fuel".
Better yet, bottle the gas from all the "human wastes". That would be endless. Isn't that methane?
I saw a bumper sticker (it was mine actually) that said "Be good to the enviornment, eat shit".

quote:

What about the vegtable oil powered vehicles

That is that bio-diesal they are talking about. Kids in VWs pulling up to McDonalds and using the french frie greese.

Doug, nearby in the Bronx they dry sewage for pelets .. the methane is used for the Con ED plant and the pelets I'm told they sprinkle on forests that were cut for lumber to enduce growth ? In Korea they use the pelets to grow food. This practice is not allowed in the US .. but if its in the forest .. I see it making its way to the food chain.

In NYC sweage treatment plants they used to burn it off on a STACK now it gets reused... but Methane is EXTREMELY volitile ... the risk sometimes exceeds the gain.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
.. I see it making its way to the food chain.

... the risk sometimes exceeds the gain.

Just sit in the lobby and watch the people walk by. I think it is already to late.

LOL !!!!!!!!!

The UK's first BioEthanol E85 pumps have just appeared.
These are in the city of Norwich on the forecourts of Morrison supermarkets.
Apparently these are designed for the new Saab 9-5 BioPower flex-fuel car which is probably the only car in the UK that will run on the stuff!

Buy a Saab 9-5 BioPower and get your own personal pump at the filling station!

And wow it's 2% cheaper than petrol.

I saw one of these pumps on Sunday, it was locked so it could not be used... not surprised.