Factory fitted Holley

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
.. the heads have the little 4 up in the corner near the valve cover ...

US manufactured heads had the numbers 2 or 4 cast in the upper corners, the Aussie heads have no numbers. What you have there are a set of US manufactured large port 4V heads. That may be a 4V motor deTomaso acquired from Australia and installed oem in your Pantera, a previous owner may have swapped motors, or that may be a set of 4V heads installed by a previous owner on the oem short block. There are basically 2 cast iron intake manifolds for the 4V heads, a square bore manifold designed for the Autolite 4300A, 630 cfm carb; or a spread bore manifold designed for the Autolite 4300D 750 cfm carb. These intakes are good performing intakes, they just weigh about 50 pounds. The holes in the square bore version can be opened up to work with larger Holley carburetors.

your friend on the DTBB

Ok I'm totaly confused now.
Here is what we got so far an intake d3ze-9425-aa a simple CI intake.. but some thing unusual its bored elongated for both carbs.

The block is stamped as 351/07175 and so is the VIN plate on the car. So I'm 100% sure that the block matches the car ... 99% sure that the intake and 4V heads are original from what I see on the car. It appears not to have been taken apart. If they did a head swap I'm sure the 50lb intake would have been tosted. It has only 42 KM on the OD which is what 25k miles ?

Ok next I'll try to see what the casting is on the block. I would like to see those records at the factory to see what was original on the car.

Ron

4V Clevelands were stockpiled in Australia and would have been available to deTomaso.

But Ron, what's the chassis number of your car?

George,

1979 GTS - 9138 is the chasis # 7175 is the motor #. So whats our best guess and cast # on block ?


Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
....So whats our best guess and cast # on block ?...

That's the 38th Pantera manufactured with an Embo coach, '78 or '79 vintage. In that time frame deTomaso was probably able to acquire US manufactured 4V Cobra Jet motors from a stockpile in Australia. If that's a US Cobra Jet motor the block casting number will be D2AE-CA. The casting plant symbol on the back of the block, near the oil pressure sender, should be a "CF". If the block were Australian, the casting plant symbol would be a "GF".

your freind on the DTBB

Thanks George as usual always a great help. Where is EMBO Coach ? Would the records be on file at the Plant in Modena

Ron

Ok so is it correct to say the Original carberator was the 4300B spread bore. Anyone have one laying around. Would like to keep it stock or maybe there is a nice dual plane 351C SHELBY intake on ebay with a std holley 650cfm would probably be the best fit with stock aircleaner and engine screen.

Whats your thoughts George ?

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
...Would the records be on file at the Plant in Modena...

Yes, the factory has records of Post Ford Era cars! Believe it or not. lol.....

The intake in your pic is the '73 - '74 version, designed for exhaust gas recirc, hence the channel that is cast into the front & right side of the carb pad. deTomaso has elongated the secondary holes to allow it to be used with the square bore Holley carb, strange!

You have a myriad of carb & intake choices. It depends what you want to do with this car. I'll cover just a few. I'll asssume you do not want to install exhaust gas recirc! If you want to run the 4300D carb, the '72 Cobra Jet manifold is identical to the manifold in your picture, excepting it has no channel for EGR. I see 4300D carbs on ebay frequently.

There is also an aluminum version of that manifold, the Boss 351 manifold, casting number D1ZX-9425-CA (see mine in the pic below).

In the early days of the smog era in California I built many very strong engines with the 4300D carb. I know it will support 400 bhp. What its limits are I haven't heard. I'm running the 4300D on my motor.

The cast iron square bore manifold is identical in design to those manifolds, except it has four small holes that fit an Autolite 4300A or Holley 600 cfm carb. There is no channel for exhaust gas recirc either. The holes can be machined larger for a larger Holley, Demon or Edelbrock carb. This was a very common mod long ago. An aluminum version of this intake also exists, casting number D1ZX-9425-DA.

All these manifolds perform the same, the cast iron manifolds weigh about 50 pounds, the alloy manifolds weigh about 20. The cast iron intakes are available on ebay constantly, I don't follow the prices, but I would assume they go for $100 or less. The alloy manifolds go for $300 and up. Some guys want $500 or more, (dream on buddy). They are a bit harder to locate.

Those dual plane Ford manifolds plus the Edelbrock Performer have the lowest carb mounting pads, making installation below the engine screen the easiest.

The Shelby intake you saw is identical to the Blue Thunder intake, it raises the carb about an inch, which is about as high as you can go and keep the engine screen on. It will require a drop base air filter assembly. These intakes will make more power above 5000 rpm than the Ford intakes, up to 40 bhp depending upon your combination. Below 5000 rpm don't expect any differences, there are none.

Your friend on the DTBB

George,

Can you tell by this pic what type of Holley i'm running ? This is my 1978 build Deauville with the original block and iron manifold. The DT service manager for Holland told us that they did do carb swaps at the dealership prior too delivery to the first owner. I'm getting the service record from the importer in this week so that might tell me more.
I do know it has run on LPG for 100.000 km during the 80's and early 90's so this might not be the original Holley anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Ok I'm totaly confused now.
Here is what we got so far an intake d3ze-9425-aa a simple CI intake.. but some thing unusual its bored elongated for both carbs.

The block is stamped as 351/07175 and so is the VIN plate on the car. So I'm 100% sure that the block matches the car ... 99% sure that the intake and 4V heads are original from what I see on the car. It appears not to have been taken apart. If they did a head swap I'm sure the 50lb intake would have been tosted. It has only 42 KM on the OD which is what 25k miles ?

Ok next I'll try to see what the casting is on the block. I would like to see those records at the factory to see what was original on the car.

Ron

If it makes you feel better, I'm 90% sure that the factory records do NOT include engine number. I am 100% sure that they do not include engine configuration (carb type, etc).

I've seen them, and they basically have interior color, exterior color, model, and a bill of sale. Really very little else.

Ron,

To the best of my knowledge EMBO went bust only two or three years ago. As far as I know they also did the bodies for Deauville and Longchamp. I believe Roland told me at a meeting that he bought some remaining stock from the liquidation sale such as GT5'S fenders etc. He will know for shure.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.
So you bought unpaid stock ? It must be a lot hearing from what their payment terms were.

quote:

Originally posted by DUTCHIE:
Can you tell by this pic what type of Holley i'm running ?

Looks like 650 or 700 Holley of the 4150 series.
Look at the front of the carb for a number.
It will be something like 'LIST 4777-4' or 'LIST 4778-2'.

See the green arrow in the picture.

(I have a spare 700cfm 4778-2 at home that looks just like the one in your picture)

On the top front of the main body of the carb, what is the number after it says LIST?

quote:

Originally posted by DUTCHIE:
...Can you tell by this pic what type of Holley i'm running ? ...

Dutchie,

I can see a vacuum secondary diaphragm operator hanging on the side of your carburetor. The older operators were cast in metal, the newer ones are molded in black plastic, I can't tell from the picture if that's a very dirty older operator, or one of the new black plastic versions. Most vacuum secondary Holleys come in either 600 cfm or 750 cfm ratings. Because yours has center hung fuel bowl floats, I'm going to "guess" it is a 750 cfm version, possibly the list number 3310.

As Doug alluded, there is a list number stamped on the front side of the choke horn, see the pic below.

your friend on the DTBB

...and we could actually read it if there wasn't a HAND IN THE WAY

Thanks George,

The operator is black plastic for shure. The man working on the car right now has a fair share of exerience and told that this carb might be a bit too much, so a 750 it could well be. It will be a couple of more weeks before i'm able to check the number. His shop is a 1 1/2 drive from my place. Which is just as well for him because he probably would have to put up with more than he wants if I lived down the street !

Hey Charlie,

I'm a little late on this post, but it seems that those bent rods on GT5 motors are stock. And without it we'd never get to find all that hidden horsepower just waiting to be unleashed.

I can confirm some of what George P said about the Aussie clevelands.
My 1985 Deauville has got a black block cleveland with 2V heads, a four barrel spreadbore iron intake, egr-plate, thermoquad carb and bosch electronic ignition. The thermoquad (mostly common on Mopars) has got a hotair/electric choke and lots of smog-gizmos. There's also a bosch alternator (of uknown p/n for my local Bosch dealer) and a ZF power-steering pump. The valvecovers are typical DT; black wrinkle finish with the DeTomaso alu-logopiece glued on. The airfilter box is (well, was) silver with the texture "Four Barrel".
Anyone know the compression ratio of those engines? thanks

Hi Espen,

the later generation of Australian 4 barrel 351C was rated with a compression ratio of 8.9:1. That would indicate to me it is fitted with flat top pistons, rather than dished pistons. And the combustion chamber volume is approximately 73 cc.

your friend on the DTBB

Thanks George!
CR of 8.9; should be great for supercharging.... anyone tried the Rotrex on a cleveland? :-)

Just wanted to bring in a quick update on my Deauville. Today I received the history file on my car from the Dutch importer which goes from new, June 1978 up too late 1985 with a recorded service of 135.000 km in that period. It turns out that after a couple of months and 3.000 km they swapped it for the Holley DP, Prior to this they changed one float on the original carb and lowered the float level. I guess they felt it still wasn't satisfactory.
One thing I did notice when going through the file, it had an appetite for inner and outer bearings, brakepads 20.000 km maximum and U-joints.