Factory fitted Holley

My GT5-S came with a factory Holley 600, vacuum secondaries.

I have it sitting on a shelf along with the factory intake and heads and stuff... It's right next to my bent pushrod collection.... (no relation between the two!)

Is that a model 1850?

I will check my Deauville for the number. I know it's not a pantera but it did come with a holley double pumper. My car is a series 1 1/2 build in 1978.
Looking back in time I can recollect that my dad had a series 1 Longchamp with a holley DP. That one was from 1979 and he bought it when it was two years old which makes me doubtfull that it was retrofitted.
I also know that it didn't show up as an option on my car or the longchamp on the build info given by the factory. It does sound possible that some importers requested it as standard for all DT cars and not just panteras.
There are still some first owner panteras and deauvilles around in Holland. I for one would love to have a chat with them but none of us have had any luck with that so far. But never say never!

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie McCall:
My GT5-S came with a factory Holley 600, vacuum secondaries.

I have it sitting on a shelf along with the factory intake and heads and stuff... It's right next to my bent pushrod collection.... (no relation between the two!)

Charlie, I don't understand why you had so many bent pushrods with a hydraulic lifter cam? Apparently an American high school kid knows more about
Aerican engines then Detomaso's mechanics.

Doug -
It's a REALLY long story, but the bent pushrods didn't come from a factory problem. I had the engine rebuilt and installed a solid lifter cam... the problem didn't come from improper valve lash, but from poor preparation of the Aussie quench heads I bought from California.

BUT, that being said, while I was still suffering from bending pushrods every 500 miles, the DeTomaso mechanics diagnosed the problem and fixed it by changing my headers. For $1800.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie McCall:
Doug -
It's a REALLY long story, but the bent pushrods didn't come from a factory problem. I had the engine rebuilt and installed a solid lifter cam... the problem didn't come from improper valve lash, but from poor preparation of the Aussie quench heads I bought from California.

BUT, that being said, while I was still suffering from bending pushrods every 500 miles, the DeTomaso mechanics diagnosed the problem and fixed it by changing my headers. For $1800.

Either the valve spings were binding because the didn't match the lift or the valves were binding in the guides, or the valves were hitting the pistons because of the lift. Those are the only items that will bend the push rods.

Yes, Yes, and No. At least in my case.

After installing the correct springs, after preparing the heads properly in the area under the shims, after fixing the problem with the guides that was side-loading the pushrods, and after I don't remember what else, I haven't bent one since.

Somewhat not surprisingly, despite DeTomaso's diagnosis of leaky headers bending my pushrods, their repair did nothing to help the problem...

As posted previously in the Engine Section; that's my original GT5 setup from the factory:

- Holley 700 DP
- Street Dominator manifold
- Bone stock OC Engine
- approx. 14 mpg

In general, it's quite a lazy engine. But as long as it runs like a VW Beatle, I don't want to change to much on the curent set up.

Roland, I think I personally helped the factory survive SEVERAL months... (that wasn't my only experience there!)

Hey, it's only money.

Oh you were the one Charlie! Thanks.

I'm still interested in the answer to the original question posed by Derek, "...European market Pantera were fitted with Holley 650 carbs by De Tomaso.What model Holley did they use?"

Below is a picture showing where to find the list number if that helps.

thanks, George

George that sort of looks like my carb, but way littler. Mine is really, really big. Embarrasingly so. Or maybe you have really bigass hands? Can you palm a basketball by anychance? I can and my hands can't cover nearlt as much on my carb as what yours are on that one. Maybe mine is like something from a 1940s fighter plane or something. It must be some junkyard thing, or maybe holleys first attempt at a carburator????

DOH!! Ok mystery solved thatnks to Georges picture. What he didn't say that he is pointing to the fron of the barb, not the back. To see them numbers you have to be in the drivers seat looking back and shining a bright light at it. SO my euro-GTS says it is a Holley 4777-4, when you look in the book of Holley it says that is a 650 CFM and it says it will not meet emisions and to use it for "off road." Must mean it is used for tractors and earth moving equipment and such.
ANyway thanks for everyones help, mystery solved and I sure do appreciate your help.
DeTom

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
I'm still interested in the answer to the original question posed by Derek, "...European market Pantera were fitted with Holley 650 carbs by De Tomaso.What model Holley did they use?"

thanks, George

Here ya go George,
Took me a little while to find where I had it stashed, but this was the stock carb on my '85 5-S. You wanna know about the intake?? ;-)

Another view - note the rubber-stamped numbers... No idea what they mean

And the last one, showing detail of the model number.

I found it interesting that it did not have an electric choke - it had a hot air choke, with lines that ran into the intake manifold...

Must mean it is used for tractors and earth moving equipment and such.

DeTom [/QUOTE]


DT, what kind of tractor do you have?

Nothing but the best for Detomaso Charlie. How much did they charge you for the new one? $2700?

I didn't buy the replacement from DeTomaso... I pulled the stock carb off when I put new heads, intake, cam, etc on a few years back and sourced it from one of the Pantera vendors. It took a while to get the carb jetted properly for my application, and I ended up sending it to someone to sort out for me as I just couldn't get it to run right. He did a great job...

As far as DeTomaso and their options go, DeTomaso offered the "Sport" option on the late-model cars. As far as I can tell, this option consisted of a different intake and carb. Their sales brochures claimed 300hp for a stock Cleveland, and 350 for the Sport option.

I personally know of one individual who bought their car new from DeTomaso in 1989... He paid $4500 for the sport option, which he was told not only involved the intake and carb, but also different internals (cam, etc). and was supposed to be good for 400 hp. When he rebuilt the stock Windsor 3 years ago, he found a bone-stock interior... Stock truck camshaft, stock heads and springs, etc. We all know they played loose with their numbers...

Don't forget to look for the block casting number when you are under the car.
The Ford numbers are above the starter.
If yours is a cleveland, it would be interesting to see what the "australian" block is in your car?

Charlie your number is differant from mine. I bet you have a better one than mine cause mine is so much older.
I don't have a tractor Doug. I have a push mower. My property is too steep for a tractor. Heck I usually fall down the hill at least once a year mowing as it is. I have what you call "vertical realestate". It means my property is one side of a mountain. It looks pretty unitl you go to mow it, then it is kind of a nightmare.
But getting back to why off road?? Maybe it was made for lambrogini?? They used to make tractors. Maybe DeTomaso used some spares mr. Labrogini had sitting around?? Who knows??

I inspected the carb on 9138 and it apears to be a 600 holley but the intake manifold looks like a Spread Bore style carb was stock. Meaning the secondaries are larger then the primaries. Further investigation will tell the tale.

Ron

Ron is that an alloy intake, or a cast iron?

De Tom,
I bought a new Holley 1850 600cfm.
This is marked as 'for off road use only' - but this is just to avoid the emissions legislation in some areas (e.g. USA and especially California). These older carb designs are not designed to meet current legislation.
For pre '75 cars here in the UK the law just demands a visual check of the smoke from the exhaust, no measurement.

Mr. Rapier, do you guys have smog over there in England? I was in Ireland once and didn't remember there being smog, but I would think England has more population density.

Nah, at 7 bucks a gallon we can't afford it.

Seriously,
Since they banned the burning of coal in London there isn't really any proper smog.
Air quality gets a bit c**p in London, Birmingham, Manchester etc on quiet summer days but I've never really noticed any.

Well what do you think all that green stuff is in Ere?

That carb of Charlie's (list 7154) looks like it's a metering plate on both sides instead of a block with jets - is that so?

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
...SO my euro-GTS says it is a Holley 4777-4, ...

Charlie & DeTom, thanks for posting your carb data.

DeTom yours is a 650 cfm model 4150 (double pump, mechaical linkage, dual metering blocks).

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie McCall:
...Here ya go George, Took me a little while to find where I had it stashed, but this was the stock carb on my '85 5-S. You wanna know about the intake?? ;-)

Charlie yours lists as a 600 cfm model 4160 (single accelerator pump, vacuum secondaries, secondary metering plate).

Charlie, I can tell you that your Australian sourced motor has heads with 2V sized ports and open combustion chambers. I am assuming it is a late model motor, therefore the oem ignition was a Bosch breakerless system and the original carb on that motor was a spread bore Carter Thermoquad mated to a cast iron spread bore intake manifold with small 2V size runners and exhaust gas recirc. That intake was probably removed by DeTomaso and replaced with the Holley street dominator.

How did I do?

your friend on the DTBB

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Charlie yours lists as a 600 cfm model 4160 (single accelerator pump, vacuum secondaries, secondary metering plate).

Charlie, I can tell you that your Australian sourced motor has heads with 2V sized ports and open combustion chambers. I am assuming it is a late model motor, therefore the oem ignition was a Bosch breakerless system and the original carb on that motor was a spread bore Carter Thermoquad mated to a cast iron spread bore intake manifold with small 2V size runners and exhaust gas recirc. That intake was probably removed by DeTomaso and replaced with the Holley street dominator.

How did I do?

your friend on the DTBB

\hey George,
First of all, congrats on the 1900 post level... That's pretty exceptional!

And congrats on your "guess"... you are pretty much right on! Those heads are in my guest room closet, as they have been replaced with 2v closed chamber Aussie heads. I honestly don't remember what ignition I had. The stock distributor is in another closet at home. And you were right on - DeTomaso installed a Holley Street Dominator, which is sitting on top of the stock heads in the guest room closet.

It's 6pm over here - I'd say you won yourself a beer!

Its 8:45 AM here on the west coast Charlie, can I put that beer on my corn flakes?

One other detail I could have thrown in, if I'm correct that your motor was a late model Aussie motor, the block & heads would have been painted black, the valve covers & air filter would have been painted silver. The early model Aussie motors were Ford blue.

take care

quote:

DeTom yours is a 650 cfm model 4150 (double pump, mechaical linkage, dual metering blocks).


quote:

Pretty darn good George. Almost spooky. But now geuss what color eyes I got.

Ha, ha, ha....

OK DeTom, I've got the eye question partially figured out!

One of them is brown, the color of the other two I have no idea.......

Karnak, your all knowing friend on the DTBB

Yes George, I am a quart low.

George its an Cast Iron intake. What I was wondering if it was a spreadbore intake did it come with an Autolite Carb or a Holley ? One side looks like a standard intake and the other like the secondarys are larger. Today I took the air cleaner off and laid a blanket in there and was about to take it apart and said to my self "no way" if I take it apart it will turn into a compete resto. I already have one of those going on. LOL over the weekend I may get up enough nerve to investigate further.
Ron

OK Ron, a real quick run down on the Aussie Clevelands that deTomaso had to draw from.

First, Australia never cast ONE large port (4V) head, ever. All the 4V motors in Australia were imported from the US between 1970 & 1974; they imported M code, R code & Q code motors. There were stock piles of spare M code & Q code motors remaining in Australia after Ford ceased importation in 1974.

The Australian manufactured 351C with 4 barrell carb had heads with 2V size ports and open combustion chambers. That's the only way they made 'em. The popular Aussie heads with 2V ports AND closed combustion chambers were all installed on the 302C. Australia manufactured a 302 cubic inch Cleveland as well (3.00 inch stroke & 6.02" rods).

The Australian manufactured 351C 4 barrel carb motors were first equipped with the Autolite 4300A carb, 600 cfm, square bore design. These went into Falcon XB models ('73 to '76), the engines were Ford blue. The Falcon XC ('76 to '79) also got a blue engine, but Ford swapped to a Carter Thermoquad spread bore carb. The Carter Thermoquad has a hole pattern like the Rochester Quadrajet, the primaries are spread far apart. The Autolite 4300D spread bore carb has primaries that are nestled close together, therefore the Autolite 4300D carb will not exchange with a Thermoquad. But the Quadrajet will. The 351C 4 barrel motors installed in the Falcon XD ('79 to '82) and XE ('82 to '84) also had spread bore carbs. The motors were "metricized", the air filter decals read 5.8 liter. The metricized motors were painted black, the valve covers & air filter were painted silver. The engines were more smog tuned in the XD & XE Falcons too. The Cleveland was last produced in 1982, last fitted in the XE Falcon. Remember, all of the engines above had small 2V size intake & exhaust ports & open combustion chambers. Somewhere along the line, I'm uncertain with which Falcon model, a Bosch electronic distributor was added. The Bosch distributor had a slightly smaller shaft than the earlier breaker point distributor. This means the hole inside the block that the distributor shaft mates with is smaller diameter, and US distributors don't fit unless the hole is machined larger.

Australian Clevelands left over after 1982 were sold to deTomaso and, in a twist of fate, exported to the US.

Study hard, you will be quized.

Your friend on the DTBB

George.

Thanks ... from what I see from arms distance .. the heads have the little 4 up in the corner near the valve cover ... the owner had a paint can in his hand so I'm not sure of the color .. its dark blue ... so black could have been the base coat .. it has a set of factory alum valve covers but not detomaso's. It has a Hall Pantera upgraded ingnition system to a Duraspark ... I'm very curiuos to see whats in the car. I have to say the car is much faster then 6479.

Ron

> Australia never cast ONE large port (4V) head, ever

Actually, they did but not for production engines. When the inventories of
4V heads ran out in the mid-seventies, Ford Australia cast another batch in
1976. The 1976 re-casts were modified "D1AE-GA" castings and will bear that
number under the intake ports. They incorporated revisions to minimise
warpage, especially at the ends of the heads where the large square holes
meet the block surface. These heads were machined asstandard 351-C 4V heads
(Part # D1AZ-6049-B) and also as Boss 351 heads (Part #D1ZZ-6049-B). Both
used the same common casting, differing only in rocker pedestal and spring
seat machining differences. The casting dates were typically June, 1976.
There was also a further production batch made in March of 1978, these
supposedly had a little more meat added to backs of the chambers (directly
under the rocker pedestal) to minimize flexing under the the rigors of NASCAR
abuse.

Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
.. the heads have the little 4 up in the corner near the valve cover ...

US manufactured heads had the numbers 2 or 4 cast in the upper corners, the Aussie heads have no numbers. What you have there are a set of US manufactured large port 4V heads. That may be a 4V motor deTomaso acquired from Australia and installed oem in your Pantera, a previous owner may have swapped motors, or that may be a set of 4V heads installed by a previous owner on the oem short block. There are basically 2 cast iron intake manifolds for the 4V heads, a square bore manifold designed for the Autolite 4300A, 630 cfm carb; or a spread bore manifold designed for the Autolite 4300D 750 cfm carb. These intakes are good performing intakes, they just weigh about 50 pounds. The holes in the square bore version can be opened up to work with larger Holley carburetors.

your friend on the DTBB

Ok I'm totaly confused now.
Here is what we got so far an intake d3ze-9425-aa a simple CI intake.. but some thing unusual its bored elongated for both carbs.

The block is stamped as 351/07175 and so is the VIN plate on the car. So I'm 100% sure that the block matches the car ... 99% sure that the intake and 4V heads are original from what I see on the car. It appears not to have been taken apart. If they did a head swap I'm sure the 50lb intake would have been tosted. It has only 42 KM on the OD which is what 25k miles ?

Ok next I'll try to see what the casting is on the block. I would like to see those records at the factory to see what was original on the car.

Ron

4V Clevelands were stockpiled in Australia and would have been available to deTomaso.

But Ron, what's the chassis number of your car?

George,

1979 GTS - 9138 is the chasis # 7175 is the motor #. So whats our best guess and cast # on block ?


Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
....So whats our best guess and cast # on block ?...

That's the 38th Pantera manufactured with an Embo coach, '78 or '79 vintage. In that time frame deTomaso was probably able to acquire US manufactured 4V Cobra Jet motors from a stockpile in Australia. If that's a US Cobra Jet motor the block casting number will be D2AE-CA. The casting plant symbol on the back of the block, near the oil pressure sender, should be a "CF". If the block were Australian, the casting plant symbol would be a "GF".

your freind on the DTBB

Thanks George as usual always a great help. Where is EMBO Coach ? Would the records be on file at the Plant in Modena

Ron

Ok so is it correct to say the Original carberator was the 4300B spread bore. Anyone have one laying around. Would like to keep it stock or maybe there is a nice dual plane 351C SHELBY intake on ebay with a std holley 650cfm would probably be the best fit with stock aircleaner and engine screen.

Whats your thoughts George ?

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
...Would the records be on file at the Plant in Modena...

Yes, the factory has records of Post Ford Era cars! Believe it or not. lol.....

The intake in your pic is the '73 - '74 version, designed for exhaust gas recirc, hence the channel that is cast into the front & right side of the carb pad. deTomaso has elongated the secondary holes to allow it to be used with the square bore Holley carb, strange!

You have a myriad of carb & intake choices. It depends what you want to do with this car. I'll cover just a few. I'll asssume you do not want to install exhaust gas recirc! If you want to run the 4300D carb, the '72 Cobra Jet manifold is identical to the manifold in your picture, excepting it has no channel for EGR. I see 4300D carbs on ebay frequently.

There is also an aluminum version of that manifold, the Boss 351 manifold, casting number D1ZX-9425-CA (see mine in the pic below).

In the early days of the smog era in California I built many very strong engines with the 4300D carb. I know it will support 400 bhp. What its limits are I haven't heard. I'm running the 4300D on my motor.

The cast iron square bore manifold is identical in design to those manifolds, except it has four small holes that fit an Autolite 4300A or Holley 600 cfm carb. There is no channel for exhaust gas recirc either. The holes can be machined larger for a larger Holley, Demon or Edelbrock carb. This was a very common mod long ago. An aluminum version of this intake also exists, casting number D1ZX-9425-DA.

All these manifolds perform the same, the cast iron manifolds weigh about 50 pounds, the alloy manifolds weigh about 20. The cast iron intakes are available on ebay constantly, I don't follow the prices, but I would assume they go for $100 or less. The alloy manifolds go for $300 and up. Some guys want $500 or more, (dream on buddy). They are a bit harder to locate.

Those dual plane Ford manifolds plus the Edelbrock Performer have the lowest carb mounting pads, making installation below the engine screen the easiest.

The Shelby intake you saw is identical to the Blue Thunder intake, it raises the carb about an inch, which is about as high as you can go and keep the engine screen on. It will require a drop base air filter assembly. These intakes will make more power above 5000 rpm than the Ford intakes, up to 40 bhp depending upon your combination. Below 5000 rpm don't expect any differences, there are none.

Your friend on the DTBB

George,

Can you tell by this pic what type of Holley i'm running ? This is my 1978 build Deauville with the original block and iron manifold. The DT service manager for Holland told us that they did do carb swaps at the dealership prior too delivery to the first owner. I'm getting the service record from the importer in this week so that might tell me more.
I do know it has run on LPG for 100.000 km during the 80's and early 90's so this might not be the original Holley anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Ok I'm totaly confused now.
Here is what we got so far an intake d3ze-9425-aa a simple CI intake.. but some thing unusual its bored elongated for both carbs.

The block is stamped as 351/07175 and so is the VIN plate on the car. So I'm 100% sure that the block matches the car ... 99% sure that the intake and 4V heads are original from what I see on the car. It appears not to have been taken apart. If they did a head swap I'm sure the 50lb intake would have been tosted. It has only 42 KM on the OD which is what 25k miles ?

Ok next I'll try to see what the casting is on the block. I would like to see those records at the factory to see what was original on the car.

Ron

If it makes you feel better, I'm 90% sure that the factory records do NOT include engine number. I am 100% sure that they do not include engine configuration (carb type, etc).

I've seen them, and they basically have interior color, exterior color, model, and a bill of sale. Really very little else.

Ron,

To the best of my knowledge EMBO went bust only two or three years ago. As far as I know they also did the bodies for Deauville and Longchamp. I believe Roland told me at a meeting that he bought some remaining stock from the liquidation sale such as GT5'S fenders etc. He will know for shure.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.
So you bought unpaid stock ? It must be a lot hearing from what their payment terms were.

quote:

Originally posted by DUTCHIE:
Can you tell by this pic what type of Holley i'm running ?

Looks like 650 or 700 Holley of the 4150 series.
Look at the front of the carb for a number.
It will be something like 'LIST 4777-4' or 'LIST 4778-2'.

See the green arrow in the picture.

(I have a spare 700cfm 4778-2 at home that looks just like the one in your picture)

On the top front of the main body of the carb, what is the number after it says LIST?

quote:

Originally posted by DUTCHIE:
...Can you tell by this pic what type of Holley i'm running ? ...

Dutchie,

I can see a vacuum secondary diaphragm operator hanging on the side of your carburetor. The older operators were cast in metal, the newer ones are molded in black plastic, I can't tell from the picture if that's a very dirty older operator, or one of the new black plastic versions. Most vacuum secondary Holleys come in either 600 cfm or 750 cfm ratings. Because yours has center hung fuel bowl floats, I'm going to "guess" it is a 750 cfm version, possibly the list number 3310.

As Doug alluded, there is a list number stamped on the front side of the choke horn, see the pic below.

your friend on the DTBB

...and we could actually read it if there wasn't a HAND IN THE WAY

Thanks George,

The operator is black plastic for shure. The man working on the car right now has a fair share of exerience and told that this carb might be a bit too much, so a 750 it could well be. It will be a couple of more weeks before i'm able to check the number. His shop is a 1 1/2 drive from my place. Which is just as well for him because he probably would have to put up with more than he wants if I lived down the street !

Hey Charlie,

I'm a little late on this post, but it seems that those bent rods on GT5 motors are stock. And without it we'd never get to find all that hidden horsepower just waiting to be unleashed.

I can confirm some of what George P said about the Aussie clevelands.
My 1985 Deauville has got a black block cleveland with 2V heads, a four barrel spreadbore iron intake, egr-plate, thermoquad carb and bosch electronic ignition. The thermoquad (mostly common on Mopars) has got a hotair/electric choke and lots of smog-gizmos. There's also a bosch alternator (of uknown p/n for my local Bosch dealer) and a ZF power-steering pump. The valvecovers are typical DT; black wrinkle finish with the DeTomaso alu-logopiece glued on. The airfilter box is (well, was) silver with the texture "Four Barrel".
Anyone know the compression ratio of those engines? thanks

Hi Espen,

the later generation of Australian 4 barrel 351C was rated with a compression ratio of 8.9:1. That would indicate to me it is fitted with flat top pistons, rather than dished pistons. And the combustion chamber volume is approximately 73 cc.

your friend on the DTBB

Thanks George!
CR of 8.9; should be great for supercharging.... anyone tried the Rotrex on a cleveland? :-)

Just wanted to bring in a quick update on my Deauville. Today I received the history file on my car from the Dutch importer which goes from new, June 1978 up too late 1985 with a recorded service of 135.000 km in that period. It turns out that after a couple of months and 3.000 km they swapped it for the Holley DP, Prior to this they changed one float on the original carb and lowered the float level. I guess they felt it still wasn't satisfactory.
One thing I did notice when going through the file, it had an appetite for inner and outer bearings, brakepads 20.000 km maximum and U-joints.