There is a lot of technology today that was not available then as well. This technology takes craftsmen to apply it.
For instance, there is has been a lot of people taking about electric water pumps. This most certainly was not a viable option in 1971. It is however, an option now. A few have worked through the issues and it works well for them. There is however a lot more talk on the subject then action in general. Just because it is not accepted to the point to where it is not being sold by the major Pantera vendors does not mean that it is not a viable option. I think for now it is still in the experimental phase just like disk brake conversions were for many muscle cars in the past.
I remember a time when everyone said disc brake conversions was a dumb think to do and there was nothing wrong with drum brakes. The MGB guys still rant and rave over how good drum brakes are...then every 100 topics is how they are locking up, not working, not adjusting, etc.
It may or may never be a great option. People will test it and play with it to the point where the information is out there and it could be a standard upgrade. I have said before, I love the idea of electric water pumps from the stand point of filling and purging a Pantera system.
I just think it is new and has not been tested in a way people know what is good or bad. Doesn't mean it's bad...in fact it makes me want to explore it. And there is the fun.
Hi Mikael,
Having owned a Pantera in the 70's totally unmodified and owning a highly modified one now I am glad of the upgrades that are available to me now, our cars were built and designed to 1970's specifications, and Italian ones at that.
I can't think of a single car on the market today if it was still in production would be designed and built the same way it would in the seventies mainly I would guess because of profit and then ease of production, quality of product, reliability etc, etc,
You do make some excellent points and valid ones at that I am grateful to you for bringing this subject up because it just reinforces one of the reasons I own a Pantera, it is one of the very, very few supercars than you CAN upgrade without devaluing, can you imagine changing a ferrari or Lambo.
Again i thank you for your in depth article it's made very interesting reading and discussion.
Having owned a Pantera in the 70's totally unmodified and owning a highly modified one now I am glad of the upgrades that are available to me now, our cars were built and designed to 1970's specifications, and Italian ones at that.
I can't think of a single car on the market today if it was still in production would be designed and built the same way it would in the seventies mainly I would guess because of profit and then ease of production, quality of product, reliability etc, etc,
You do make some excellent points and valid ones at that I am grateful to you for bringing this subject up because it just reinforces one of the reasons I own a Pantera, it is one of the very, very few supercars than you CAN upgrade without devaluing, can you imagine changing a ferrari or Lambo.
Again i thank you for your in depth article it's made very interesting reading and discussion.
Thanks for the kind words from some of you, especially the pm's.
Less inspiring are the comments from people that clearly have not read it, where I'm accused of being against improving anything. I'm all for improving, my Pantera is testament to that, but it has to be the RIGHT improvements. Example, when my first Pantera didn't cool the engine properly, did I cut holes in the front lid, put on bigger diameter pipes, install electric water pump, speed up/slow down water pump? No, I made sure the system already designed was Working As Designed. And that did the trick. Correcting instead of Compensating. Spending your time and money wisely.
So, to reiterate, modifications/improvements in general are good. A handful of the popular modifications/improvements discussed on this forum are at best a waste of time and money. Just my opinion.
I won't comment on this stream any further, unless somebody has comments on where I'm wrong on the 5 specific not-to modifications I mention. Then it gets interesting IMO
And next time I contemplate spending an evening putting such a text together for the benefit of my DeTomaso friends, I might just go out in garage and wash the cars instead...
Less inspiring are the comments from people that clearly have not read it, where I'm accused of being against improving anything. I'm all for improving, my Pantera is testament to that, but it has to be the RIGHT improvements. Example, when my first Pantera didn't cool the engine properly, did I cut holes in the front lid, put on bigger diameter pipes, install electric water pump, speed up/slow down water pump? No, I made sure the system already designed was Working As Designed. And that did the trick. Correcting instead of Compensating. Spending your time and money wisely.
So, to reiterate, modifications/improvements in general are good. A handful of the popular modifications/improvements discussed on this forum are at best a waste of time and money. Just my opinion.
I won't comment on this stream any further, unless somebody has comments on where I'm wrong on the 5 specific not-to modifications I mention. Then it gets interesting IMO
And next time I contemplate spending an evening putting such a text together for the benefit of my DeTomaso friends, I might just go out in garage and wash the cars instead...
Mikael -
Don't feel that way! IMHO Anyone with talent, ideas and an interest in our cars makes a big difference by contributing to both the POCA technical newsletter, here and in other Pantera resources.
You may get a lot of varying opinions on an internet forum, but there are even more, less vocal, or less internet savvy people who read your article / post (either in print or on the web) and don't comment, but who are now thinking about your recommendations......
Rocky
Don't feel that way! IMHO Anyone with talent, ideas and an interest in our cars makes a big difference by contributing to both the POCA technical newsletter, here and in other Pantera resources.
You may get a lot of varying opinions on an internet forum, but there are even more, less vocal, or less internet savvy people who read your article / post (either in print or on the web) and don't comment, but who are now thinking about your recommendations......
Rocky
Hello Mikael; Unless you are discussing a subject as absolute as mathematics, where 2+2=4 is irrefutable, then posting your ideas/comments about mods for a Pantera or for that matter ANY car is naturally going to provide the opportunity for others to have alternate, opposing viewpoint/s.quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
Thanks for the kind words from some of you, especially the pm's.
Less inspiring are the comments from people that clearly have not read it, where I'm accused of being against improving anything. I'm all for improving, my Pantera is testament to that, but it has to be the RIGHT improvements. Example, when my first Pantera didn't cool the engine properly, did I cut holes in the front lid, put on bigger diameter pipes, install electric water pump, speed up/slow down water pump? No, I made sure the system already designed was Working As Designed. And that did the trick. Correcting instead of Compensating. Spending your time and money wisely.
So, to reiterate, modifications/improvements in general are good. A handful of the popular modifications/improvements discussed on this forum are at best a waste of time and money. Just my opinion.
I won't comment on this stream any further, unless somebody has comments on where I'm wrong on the 5 specific not-to modifications I mention. Then it gets interesting IMO
And next time I contemplate spending an evening putting such a text together for the benefit of my DeTomaso friends, I might just go out in garage and wash the cars instead...
That is just a fact of life.
I must have thicker skin than you as I personally did NOT read any comments that could be construed as insulting or inflammatory.
I personally would NOT want to be part of a website where discussion & counter ideas were not encouraged nor expressed, as how boring would that be if everyone was monolithically nodding in total agreement at everyones thoughts.
So keep posting at the cost of your cars not being washed
...Mark
I agree with Mark. I think you did a great job with the article and I think everyone that has posted publicly has been very polite and professional.
Part of the issue here is you picked 5 VERY controversial items/ideas. I actually strongly disagree with 4 of the 5 you posted for a variety of reasons. I don't want to go down that rat hole so I won't comment on them specifically.
To be honest, when I read the print article for the first time I thought to myself, "this wouldn't go over very well on the forum where people can rebut the content".
Again, very well written and I appreciate the effort in contributing to the club!
Scott
Part of the issue here is you picked 5 VERY controversial items/ideas. I actually strongly disagree with 4 of the 5 you posted for a variety of reasons. I don't want to go down that rat hole so I won't comment on them specifically.
To be honest, when I read the print article for the first time I thought to myself, "this wouldn't go over very well on the forum where people can rebut the content".
Again, very well written and I appreciate the effort in contributing to the club!
Scott
Here are 5 mods I am not a big fan of:
1: 4WD:
http://www.google.com/imgres?i...sch&ved=0CEcQMyggMCA
/605a55ad09f49f3c45b220e05ac8d5d4/tumblr_mn5xgkCEgj1qzut9po1_500.jpg
2: Some front air dams do not go over as well:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com...700_d529f98442_m.jpg
3. This? well there is just no room for this:
http://www.google.com/imgres?i...ved=0CBUQMygNMA04rAI
4. I generally don't like front trunk hood scoops but once in a while some one pulls it off well:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/grou...elaide_Australia.jpg
5. I don't think there is a real need for laundry storage but occasionally someone pulls that off well:
http://s61.photobucket.com/use...ssonPantera.jpg.html
1: 4WD:
http://www.google.com/imgres?i...sch&ved=0CEcQMyggMCA
/605a55ad09f49f3c45b220e05ac8d5d4/tumblr_mn5xgkCEgj1qzut9po1_500.jpg
2: Some front air dams do not go over as well:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com...700_d529f98442_m.jpg
3. This? well there is just no room for this:
http://www.google.com/imgres?i...ved=0CBUQMygNMA04rAI
4. I generally don't like front trunk hood scoops but once in a while some one pulls it off well:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/grou...elaide_Australia.jpg
5. I don't think there is a real need for laundry storage but occasionally someone pulls that off well:
http://s61.photobucket.com/use...ssonPantera.jpg.html
When I published Mikael's article in POCA, I had much the same reaction as Scott, but that's only an opinion and everyone has one. So I saw some value to the Club.
I once did a similar article a decade ago titled 'Upgrades that Aren't', and among others I listed the infamous adding of urethane foam to the lower rear subframe openings to seal off rainwater incursion, and honing out of OEM clutch slave cylinders. I also got a few dissenters with the conclusions, but overall, Pantera owners are more polite with their opinions than some 'other' marque members.
I once did a similar article a decade ago titled 'Upgrades that Aren't', and among others I listed the infamous adding of urethane foam to the lower rear subframe openings to seal off rainwater incursion, and honing out of OEM clutch slave cylinders. I also got a few dissenters with the conclusions, but overall, Pantera owners are more polite with their opinions than some 'other' marque members.
given rear mounted AC condensor is the 5th modification, I have a question;
does the fan pull air from outside in or does it push it out?
I have not seen, but has the direction of natual air flow at speed been verified (and if so which direction)?
does the fan pull air from outside in or does it push it out?
I have not seen, but has the direction of natual air flow at speed been verified (and if so which direction)?
Hope these videos helps with your inquiry...Markquote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
given rear mounted AC condensor is the 5th modification, I have a question;
does the fan pull air from outside in or does it push it out?
I have not seen, but has the direction of natual air flow at speed been verified (and if so which direction)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft5BDwXq2F4
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...481014456#8481014456
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q83Im4mpdUE
quote:Cooling System: So I’d say, get the basics of your cooling system right, and forget the very creative solutions. They’re not needed and if they do work, they’re compensating for the real problem you have.
I agree with the suggestion to NOT cut holes in the hood, I have no comment on oversized pipes....
I would advocate the cooling system modification performed to my car (#5357), which really only includes one major departure from stock.... (Other than the Gary Hall Brass Radiator and the SACC underdrive pulley). This mod is the Carroll Smith recommended "Auto Air Bleed" lines from both the swirl tank, and the radiator.
I believe the Air Bleed functionality design is how the cooling system should have been designed in the early days. This was used on Ford LeMans Cars, and race-proven prior to Pantera development. Plus it reduces the chances for trapped air in the system to adversely impact cooling performance.
The "Auto Air Bleed" design feature specifically might be a case where the factory engineers may not have come up with the optimal design....
My other two cooling system changes are just "Belt and Suspenders"...
Comments?
Rocky
Attachments
Images (1)
"1" of the winnings race cars in HISTORY WAS the GT40!!!...If Hood venting was NOT advantageous to engine cooling the GT40 hood would NOT have been Soooooooo Extremely VENTED!!!!...To think otherwise is an effort in futility!!!quote:Originally posted by Rocky:quote:Cooling System: So I’d say, get the basics of your cooling system right, and forget the very creative solutions. They’re not needed and if they do work, they’re compensating for the real problem you have.
I agree with the suggestion to NOT cut holes in the hood, I have no comment on oversized pipes....
I would advocate the cooling system modification performed to my car (#5357), which really only includes one major departure from stock.... (Other than the Gary Hall Brass Radiator and the SACC underdrive pulley). This mod is the Carroll Smith recommended "Auto Air Bleed" lines from both the swirl tank, and the radiator.
I believe the Air Bleed functionality design is how the cooling system should have been designed in the early days. This was used on Ford LeMans Cars, and race-proven prior to Pantera development. Plus it reduces the chances for trapped air in the system to adversely impact cooling performance.
The "Auto Air Bleed" design feature specifically might be a case where the factory engineers may not have come up with the optimal design....
My other two cooling system changes are just "Belt and Suspenders"...
Comments?
Rocky
It is beyond common sense NOT to realize that the venting of TRAPPED HOT AIR under the hood would NOT lead/enhance cooling!!!
To see "The forest through the trees" ONLY requires a person to have their collective eyes OPEN!!!
Should I send you a new pair of glasses???!!!...Mark
http://images.fineartamerica.c...tail-john-colley.jpg
I was looking at this from a perspective (like Mikael, I believe) of operating the car within the original design margins (and somewhat beyond) without major changes from the original.
Certainly if you designed the car like the GT-40, and made a huge, free flowing ducts exhausting the air through the top of the hood, you would increase cooling capacity. To argue otherwise would be silly.
I am agreeing with Mikael that IF your car is overheating.... BEFORE you cut holes in the hood..... MAYBE you want to fix any underperforming elements in the current setup.
Look for an underlying cause.... be it implementing the Ford TSBs for the radiator baffle, or install the right 351C thermostat.
It's funny, I was disagreeing (a little), now I am defending....
If a person is building a monster car (like David, which I think is really cool) and that person feels the need to go a little (or a lot) beyond the original design parameters - that's fine, and a great choice for them.
But those decisions can be driven by things other than technical need - the owner WANTS to have 50% more thermal capacity in their specific car, or the owner installed a 600 HP motor.
PS. I'm not a moron - I realize that the car I was referring to was the GT-40.
Amusing, this topic is!
Certainly if you designed the car like the GT-40, and made a huge, free flowing ducts exhausting the air through the top of the hood, you would increase cooling capacity. To argue otherwise would be silly.
I am agreeing with Mikael that IF your car is overheating.... BEFORE you cut holes in the hood..... MAYBE you want to fix any underperforming elements in the current setup.
Look for an underlying cause.... be it implementing the Ford TSBs for the radiator baffle, or install the right 351C thermostat.
It's funny, I was disagreeing (a little), now I am defending....
If a person is building a monster car (like David, which I think is really cool) and that person feels the need to go a little (or a lot) beyond the original design parameters - that's fine, and a great choice for them.
But those decisions can be driven by things other than technical need - the owner WANTS to have 50% more thermal capacity in their specific car, or the owner installed a 600 HP motor.
PS. I'm not a moron - I realize that the car I was referring to was the GT-40.
Amusing, this topic is!
I made more then minor changes to duct my air out of the hood. I have more of a GT-40 style hood but tried to make it not look like a GT-40.
Reasoning was more then cooling. In a traditional Pantera the air going through the radiator then exits under the car. I have closed all these exits and not the air exits above the car. This evacuates much of the air which would have been pushed under the car.
Gary
Reasoning was more then cooling. In a traditional Pantera the air going through the radiator then exits under the car. I have closed all these exits and not the air exits above the car. This evacuates much of the air which would have been pushed under the car.
Gary
Mikael certainly touched a nerve, especially on the subject of cooling, with this article.
I guess the thinking (especially on cooling) is that it is a "matter of degrees"
- Hey! That's a joke, get it?
Anyway - sure - if you are making a super modified car, then pull out the buzz-saw and cut away.
I believe the intent of the article was for those who are operating the car close to the original design parameters.
Obviously - this thread gets people hot under the collar, but it's all in the interest of learning.
Rocky
PS> I couldn't help it!
I guess the thinking (especially on cooling) is that it is a "matter of degrees"
- Hey! That's a joke, get it?
Anyway - sure - if you are making a super modified car, then pull out the buzz-saw and cut away.
I believe the intent of the article was for those who are operating the car close to the original design parameters.
Obviously - this thread gets people hot under the collar, but it's all in the interest of learning.
Rocky
PS> I couldn't help it!
Hello Gary; The hood design of the GT40 was twofold "1" being the venting of hot air & "2" the air passing through the cut-away/scoop/vent also added down force to the frontend at speed...Markquote:Originally posted by comp2:
I made more then minor changes to duct my air out of the hood. I have more of a GT-40 style hood but tried to make it not look like a GT-40.
Reasoning was more then cooling. In a traditional Pantera the air going through the radiator then exits under the car. I have closed all these exits and not the air exits above the car. This evacuates much of the air which would have been pushed under the car.
Gary
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Hello Gary; The hood design of the GT40 was twofold "1" being the venting of hot air & "2" the air passing through the cut-away/scoop/vent also added down force to the frontend at speed...Mark
That was the idea. I angled back the duct as much as I could to smooth out air flow. Add bar to replace what I took out but the duct itself is also structural.
I did not want it to look like it was a GT-40 copy so I set it up with a screen. Should I get into a position where I need more cooling I also set it up where the front portion could be bolted with more venting.
The hood was form scratch of course.
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hood17.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hv3.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/Pantera1.jpg
VERY NICE WORK Gary!!!...I too am also considering louvering/venting the tops of my front fenders akin to the Porsche Slant Nose design...quote:Originally posted by comp2:quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Hello Gary; The hood design of the GT40 was twofold "1" being the venting of hot air & "2" the air passing through the cut-away/scoop/vent also added down force to the frontend at speed...Mark
That was the idea. I angled back the duct as much as I could to smooth out air flow. Add bar to replace what I took out but the duct itself is also structural.
I did not want it to look like it was a GT-40 copy so I set it up with a screen. Should I get into a position where I need more cooling I also set it up where the front portion could be bolted with more venting.
The hood was form scratch of course.
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hood17.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hv3.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/Pantera1.jpg
https://porschebahn.files.word...2009/10/dsc_2663.jpg
Do you have any close up photos of your fender louvering/venting Gary?
What machining/fabricating process did you utilize to achieve the louvering?
Thanks!!!...Mark
The louvers I bought from Hal Pantera and welded them in. I am planning on buying some louver dies to play with in our press brake but it will not help with this project.
This is about the closest photo I have of them...if you need others I can take more:
This is about the closest photo I have of them...if you need others I can take more:
I agree with many of your points Mikael, especially concerning the cooling system. For example, aluminum radiators are NOT an upgrade, only a change. When the stock cooling system is properly bled and working as designed, there are no cooling issues.
Anyway, following are some modifications NOT to do to your Pantera...
1. Cool body mods or customizations
Anyway, following are some modifications NOT to do to your Pantera...
1. Cool body mods or customizations
Attachments
Images (1)
