Functional air intake on c pillar?

I had always thought it would be fun to change and test the boundary layer to trip it into the duct.

When an airplane reaches a high angle of attack (relative to the air flow) airplanes use Vortex Generators to spin the air. The spinning air comes back in contact with the wing and stays in the low pressure instead of separating.






A round object creates far more drag then an airfoil shape and creates a natural turbulent area behind it. Round objects are avoided in aircraft due to the drag created at high speeds:






HOWEVER...I would love to put a row of 3" long tubing the diameter of a pencil up the aft section of the door jam and see if that would not trip the air to bring a positive pressure in a smaller duct.

Possibly at the front pillar too. I am sure the low pressure enlarges as it hits the pillar and could be brought in there as well.

PanteraDoug,

Re you question about putting the "roll bar" in the engine compartment, you might consider integrating it into your engine bulkhead vs mounting it seperately outside of the bulkhead. You can get the additional interior room but also benefit from a stiffer chassis.

As shown in the pictures below, my cage is actually an integral part of the engine bulkhead/opening.





Re your question about roof scoops, I'm not aware of anyone that sells these, but mine might give you some ideas. It was fabricated to connect to a custom airbox via (4) pipes.



Regards,
Dave

Very interesting solutions but too radical for my street car. Thanks you for sharing though Dave.

PanteraDoug, your roll bar plan sounds like mine. As a tall guy I want to have all the possible space inside the car. I haven´t really done anything yet, but my Pantera is in pieces and I have had the possibility to see it all and think about it. I just can´t believe, that modificating the gas tank would be such a big job. I don´t even think that you would need any special Pantera place to take care of that. Just an ordinary but good tig-welder, and a little slice taken away from the tank. from the right place, of course.

I also want to keep my rear window. I don´t know, if it is possible to attach the rear window and the sealings from the cabin side, if the roll bar is on the way on the engine side?

Maybe this is coming close to trying to hi-jack a discussion, as the roll bar has very little to do with the fresh air for the engine...

The tank theoretically can be modified with just a hammer to clear a bar post. The issue really as I see it is that you are talking about a 40 year old galvanized steel tank. You really can't weld on it because of the volatility of gas remnants in the tank and there likely is rust or corrosion you will knock loose from the joint in the tanks assembly structure.

The time for me to have done that is when I had the driveline and the tank out. I didn't have the bar at that time and simply stated, I didn't think of it yet.

Personally I am convinced that is the place to put the bar and tie it to the roof structure at that time.

Several people have built a cage leaving the rear window in place and drilling through the glass with a glass bit and bolting it to forward running braces.

I don't want anything in the cabin. It's too tight as it is. All I need is the bar and for me it would work in the engine compartment. Easy to say until you try to do it.
Tjarda was a magician with this car. He fit a lot into very little space without the use of an autocad software program.

I'm thinking that the roll bar in the engine compartment might have to be in two pieces to get it in because of the inner rear tubs?

I don't think anyone minds hi-jacking a thread that has run it's course in one subject and stimulated another that so many are interested in BUT that is the job of the moderator and he could split the thread and move this part to a roll bar thread if thought necessary.

I'm sure George is following this with interest also?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: I have to go with what the data Panterror posted on this subject.....All this work and re-engineering for probably only a 1% gain?

Keep in mind, what I actually said was most people that had attempted to improve charge air density had achieved 1-6% improvements in practice. This was a generalization about street cars based upon what I have learned from friends and acquaintances that have actually performed the work and measured the result. On my street cars I've always done what was practical and sensible and not worried about measuring the actual performance uplift. In practice, ram improvements are difficult to verify unless you have a fully instrumented car; usually in a racing environment. In general for street cars, ram air is probably not going to get you much but if the average charge air temp is 80F over ambient, that is certainly a nontrivial condition and in theory could represent over ~12% potential improvement due to charge air density alone and potentially more if due to other factors it allows for a higher state of tune to be safely achieved. The point being there is likely more power enhancement to be realized street cars by cooler charge air than ram air if you have excessive rise in charge air temp to begin with. One only needs to put a thermocouple in the inlet of the air filter and go for ride to find out. In competition, wringing every last ounce of performance is the name of the game. On the street, it’s only piece of mind and the value for money proposition can be different.

Best,
Kelly

Doug, re the big rear window and a cage, a few owners have taken the easy way out and simply used a plastic rear window, which drills with a hole saw. Federal law says that IF glass is used in side and rear windows, it must be tempered. But plastic is not specifically illegal. AS far as protection in the event of a fire, it seems the rear glass shatters immediately on contact with a flame anyway, so its of no more protection than plastic. The only place I know where plastic rear windows are illegal is at Bonneville. PPC-Carson City has UV-stabilized Lucite rear windows in stock for street cars mostly as a cost savings, but there's a substantial weight savings, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: I have to go with what the data Panterror posted on this subject.....All this work and re-engineering for probably only a 1% gain?

Keep in mind, what I actually said was most people that had attempted to improve charge air density had achieved 1-6% improvements in practice. This was a generalization about street cars based upon what I have learned from friends and acquaintances that have actually performed the work and measured the result. On my street cars I've always done what was practical and sensible and not worried about measuring the actual performance uplift. In practice, ram improvements are difficult to verify unless you have a fully instrumented car; usually in a racing environment. In general for street cars, ram air is probably not going to get you much but if the average charge air temp is 80F over ambient, that is certainly a nontrivial condition and in theory could represent over ~12% potential improvement due to charge air density alone and potentially more if due to other factors it allows for a higher state of tune to be safely achieved. The point being there is likely more power enhancement to be realized street cars by cooler charge air than ram air if you have excessive rise in charge air temp to begin with. One only needs to put a thermocouple in the inlet of the air filter and go for ride to find out. In competition, wringing every last ounce of performance is the name of the game. On the street, it’s only piece of mind and the value for money proposition can be different.

Best,
Kelly

Even if it is 6% net gain, these horses are getting really expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Doug, re the big rear window and a cage, a few owners have taken the easy way out and simply used a plastic rear window, which drills with a hole saw. Federal law says that IF glass is used in side and rear windows, it must be tempered. But plastic is not specifically illegal. AS far as protection in the event of a fire, it seems the rear glass shatters immediately on contact with a flame anyway, so its of no more protection than plastic. The only place I know where plastic rear windows are illegal is at Bonneville. PPC-Carson City has UV-stabilized Lucite rear windows in stock for street cars mostly as a cost savings, but there's a substantial weight savings, too.

Yes, I have seen plexiglass or I think it is correctly referred to as carbonite.

So if I'm reading this correctly a fresh air intake via a simple side scoop .. with a negative pressure ( because the intake stroke of a ICE internal combustion engine sucks air IN ) produces between 1-6% increase in horse power with only a 200.00 scoop, a 50.00 flex = 25HP .. i consider this the best money ever spent ... because in drag racing it cost 1000.00 per tenth. here we did it for 250.00.

The rear window LEXAN by DUPONT is an acceptable fire retardant material to be used as a WINDOW on the side and rear of a race vehicle ... is it acceptable on the street ? The laws don't exclude it and the weight savings is sure worth it.

With all this talk about roll cages for rigidity ... keeps me awake thing how I'm going to recoup this weight I added .. LOL

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
The rear window LEXAN by DUPONT is an acceptable fire retardant material to be used as a WINDOW on the side and rear of a race vehicle ... is it acceptable on the street ? The laws don't exclude it and the weight savings is sure worth it.

With all this talk about roll cages for rigidity ... keeps me awake thing how I'm going to recoup this weight I added .. LOL

Ron

Weight is like buying things. We all talk about how cheap we got some things for but never mention how we over paid for other things.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
The rear window LEXAN by DUPONT is an acceptable fire retardant material to be used as a WINDOW on the side and rear of a race vehicle ... is it acceptable on the street ? The laws don't exclude it and the weight savings is sure worth it.

With all this talk about roll cages for rigidity ... keeps me awake thing how I'm going to recoup this weight I added .. LOL

Ron

LOL! The weight you save with your Lexan offsets the cage and the cold air induction compensates for the lost acceleration. How many 1/10ths is 25hp? Hum? I wonder?

That's funny. The NYS trooper that pulled me over just the other day was commenting on my 1/4 mile trap speed. The trap he set in which I was speeding? LOL.

Like I said, it's all fun cause it keeps us All out of trouble...well normally any way?

One of the reasons why I was thinking about putting the roll bar to the engine side is, that no holes through the window would be needed at all.

About the gas tank modification, I was not thinking about those 40 year old tanks. That just did not come into my mind. I had my own new Hall Pantera stainless steel tank in my mind, and I was thinking about how very easy it would be to modify that. And that really looks easy.

quote:

Originally posted by kimmosch:
One of the reasons why I was thinking about putting the roll bar to the engine side is, that no holes through the window would be needed at all.

About the gas tank modification, I was not thinking about those 40 year old tanks. That just did not come into my mind. I had my own new Hall Pantera stainless steel tank in my mind, and I was thinking about how very easy it would be to modify that. And that really looks easy.

I would love to see any and all of the details on that installation. If you go ahead with it post the pictures please and the source of the parts.
I suspect that there would be enough interest for a fabricator to build much more then one set up to sell to us.
I would be interested.

PanteraDoug, If I will proceed with these plans, I promise to show the results. However, it will take some time, as I will do it myself and without any earlier experience about roll bars. And the whole car has to be fixed also...

OK, let’s try this one more time.

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD: On an average July early evening (75*), I was getting 180* inlet temps on my laptop. I now rarely see the temp go above 100*. Will

Since Will actually has an EFI system with an ECU that senses inlet air temp, he certainly has my attention.

To me, the point is without doubt, an ~80F drop in average inlet air temp is a 12.9% improvement in terms of absolute temperature. That should present a real life opportunity for a comparable gain in charge air density, thus power. Perhaps not over the engine dyno reading, but certainly over the previous in-car condition. Furthermore, if you’re on the edge of how much advance you can run on the ignition curve due to compression ratio and pump gas limitations, it may also represent the opportunity to pick up some more power as these combinations often like more ignition advance than can be tolerated at lower compression and octane levels. There is at least one member that has commented on this thread with a boosted engine, and as I mentioned, it’s an even bigger deal in boosted engines.

Between 50 mph and 150 mph there is only 0.3%-2.6% of similar potential due to Ram Air affect. Does that frame it? So irrespective of method, if your charge air is 100F over ambient, charge air temp management is material in a street driven Pantera. Ram Air is not.

When I remarked in my previous post that most only realize 1-6% improvements from charge air scheme mods, this depends upon your starting point, and I can assure you that most cars don’t start with conditions that average 105F over ambient temperature; maybe at idle but not in the moving car.

Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them and this is certainly true in Panteras. In Will’s case, he also has 180s and that will definitely add to the need to manage charge air temp, which he appears to have attended to in exemplary fashion.

So considering the $dough and effort typically spent in engine building to realize % power gains, it’s certainly not productive to give back >10% on charge air temp without a fight because of in-car conditions.

Best,
K

quote:

Originally posted by kimmosch:
PanteraDoug, If I will proceed with these plans, I promise to show the results. However, it will take some time, as I will do it myself and without any earlier experience about roll bars. And the whole car has to be fixed also...

I am always interested to see what others have done, any time.

I think though that you need to decide whether or not it is a roll bar or a full cage.

With the entire car apart, that is the time to play with these ideas.

I'd lend you my Hall 3 point but I sold it to Pushbutton and he welded the thing in.

Considering where that one fits in the cabin, it might fit on the other side of the bulkhead also. It has the same profile.

The big unknown is the fuel tank fit/no fit thing?

quote:

Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them

I put some yarn on my rear hatch opening (about 4" below the top). The air clearly exits through the rear opening. So where does it come from? It comes from below the engine area. Passing through around the engine and headers. Even if you leave the rear quarters open ( I did), it makes only a marginal difference. The cold air must be ducted in to benefit from a much lower charge temp.
Will

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:

quote:

Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them

I put some yarn on my rear hatch opening (about 4" below the top). The air clearly exits through the rear opening. So where does it come from? It comes from below the engine area. Passing through around the engine and headers. Even if you leave the rear quarters open ( I did), it makes only a marginal difference. The cold air must be ducted in to benefit from a much lower charge temp.
Will

I did the same basic test with the exact same results. I was using an engine screen that had the center section raised about three inches for air cleaner clearance. As soon as the car would move the streamers would go straight out. No question about where all the hot air was coming from and how hot the inlet air temperature was on a 100 degree day in the desert. The only way to get cool air into the engine is to duct it into a seal air box.

I think this would work in a Pantera pretty well.

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:

quote:

Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them

I put some yarn on my rear hatch opening (about 4" below the top). The air clearly exits through the rear opening. So where does it come from? It comes from below the engine area. Passing through around the engine and headers. Even if you leave the rear quarters open ( I did), it makes only a marginal difference. The cold air must be ducted in to benefit from a much lower charge temp.
Will

Thanks Will. That's very useful information. We'll see what I've got when the new mill is in the car. There's plenty to do ahead of that but given the similarities, sounds like I'll have an additional project in my future.

Best,
K

I have this setup on my car but didn't drive it before I put these on so I can't say what type of difference it made. I want to replace the corrugated intake tubing. This is a Spectre air cleaner.
http://i744.photobucket.com/al...led/garage_Pant3.jpg
Initially I did the same thing with a Ram Air Box. It used a standard size air filter while the Spectre unit uses a smaller filter supplied with the air cleaner assembly.
This is the Ram Air Box setup.

Oops forgot the Ram Air setup picture.

That's very nice. I like it.

Thanks PanteraDoug! Here is the way it looks with the decklid closed for reference.
My decklid was cut out for webers so I did a little customizing.

Very interesting. It is ironic that Spectre does make air cleaners that will fit under the screen but because of the location of the fresh air intake that still doesn't solve the problem unless you go under the car.

I'm still not convinced that is the right place to go with the ducts. Just the only place if you still want to retain the stock screen and duct cold air in?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Very interesting. It is ironic that Spectre does make air cleaners that will fit under the screen but because of the location of the fresh air intake that still doesn't solve the problem unless you go under the car.

I'm still not convinced that is the right place to go with the ducts. Just the only place if you still want to retain the stock screen and duct cold air in?

It's the most convenient, by far, and does the job with cold air. Not much room to go below and much more difficult to go out the back opening.
Will

I been looking into the spectre closed box system too. I wan't to fit it UNDER the engine screen as I try to stay with the original look on my car.

They have a dropped base version that should do the trick (2.4" total height over the carb flange) even with the air gap manifold on my engine, but the question is where to pick up the fresh air if I can't take it from the side windows (don't wan't to) or from under the car.

Has anybody thought about getting the air through the top of the splash shields in the rear wheel wells.

Some header heat may exit through there but the air could be a lot cooler there than anywhere in the enginebay ??

I have, Push. I think a viable area is behind the rear wheel in the dead zone between the outer skin & the inner fender panel. That's where my ducts will be routed, even though it means punching a hole in the inner fender panel. And for those using flex hoses for feeding air boxes, a 4" ID corrugated hose flows total air pretty close to a 3" ID smooth tube. Those corrugations really upset air flow.

I think that in the passenger side it should be possible to route a 4" hose without cutting the inner panel, but in the drivers side, the fuel tank is in the way.

Spectre has some really nice systems - I'm looking at this one

Spectre low profile 2x4"

or as a kit with hoses:

Spectre kit