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Group 4 Steel Flare Help Requested

H hockeydudeMember
Ok, a call out for help to those who have put steel flares on their cars, or who are familar with the process.

I am have been trying to fit the rear flares, but been fighting myself mainly. For those who don't know me, I am pretty dang particular on how stuff looks, and the flares make or a break the car to me. I have all the running gear, (wheels tires, suspesion bits) I plan to run, and have done a rough alignment on the suspension. So we can skip the talk about the correct wheels and tires and lets have this post get into the nitty gritty a bit more.

Here are the issues I am running into:

1) Flares way off from end of wheel, not just in terms of logitudal placement (wheel depth from lip), but also in terms of curvature. The curvature is a super easy fix, so no worries on that. For everyone's info, wheels are deep dish group 4s, with stock group 5 offsets, Steve W. and I talked about all this in quite some detail and this is what we settled on. Flares are from Dennis, as I wanted his rounded flare style, compared to the more "flat" flares offered by the vendors. Unfortantly I joofed, and all this combined put the wheel about 1.25" behind the lip of the flare, and while I know this is pretty common, I can't stand that look. Since I'm not in the market for another set of $5K wheels, I need spacers or will have to cut down the flares to fit. Kind of feel like I should go the spacer route (and thats what I started if you read below), just seems a shame to cut down these big ol'e flares, but not sure if I am going overboard. Basically this paragraph is asking if anyone has a the track widths, front and rear for the "average" group 4. I know these are going to vary a bunch. Please also state, fiberglass or steel flares, and if the outside of your wheels are "In Line" with the fender lip, or tucked in.

2) Suspension Cyling: Ok, this one is is what is really messing with me at the moment, I went ahead and got a .750" spacer (current wheel studs wont allow any thicker spacers than this), and mocked up both sides in slightly different styles. What I am running into is that I can't cycle the suspension worth a dang upwards. I get maybe 2.5-3" of upward travel from ride hieght (set with all LCA's parrellel to the ground) before the tire will hit the flare, so theres going to be even less tavel when I'm at speed due to tire growth, and I plan for this to be a driver, so I know its going to bottom out. Now yes, I do understand that since I moved the wheel further out its going to hit the flare sooner, but lets just ignore that. Do any of you group 4 and 5 owners have issues with full suspension cycling or with bottoming out on the flares while driving?

Path forward:
My tentative path forward to is swap in some longer wheel studs (btw does anyone know the press fit shank diameter for mark william's axles? I left my good calipers at work), and modify the flare, so I can move them up, and flatten their slope to gain more suspension travel in the upward direction. This is also going to force me to make a whole new fender lip, which ain't going to be fun.

Now, if someone thinks I'm going about this all wrong, please stop me!! I don't want an ulcer if I don't need one, and thats pretty much the point of this post.

Any help is appreciated. Been working on the car for the past 4 years, and have another 3-4 till completion, just dont want to screw it up. If you're still here, thanks for putting up with my novel, and hope my mental processes didnt scare you too much :}


Thanks,
Dave
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accobraaccobraMember
Hockeydude.

Please dont even get me started

I also mounted my steel flares and hated how they looked, the fabrication and fit sucked. The first set for the rear need 1" removed to bring them in closer to the end of the tire, but still I hated the curvature and the fronts hit the tire as it moved thru the steering cycle. So I bought a second set for the rear and cut off only the end 2" all the way down and around ... I still have some shrinking and the edge/ lip to reshape. The suspension rims and tires were all mounted and I have to say if they made larger tires then 335 x 18's it would make things easier. I had a set of spacers made 1" which makes the entire combo come together.

As for the travel up and down .. I mounted a set of KONIS ... so don't think there is going to be much of an issue up and down ... but I did raise the top shock mount 1" and I;m getting the feeling the upper control arm has to go up a little .. but have not calculated that yet so its only speculation. I have aftermarket MW axles so 1/2 wheel studs 2" long accommodation the 1" spacers the axles are both threaded and pressfit. I honestly might have overlooked the conflict with the flares ...being consumed by poor fit of the steel flares.

Your on the right path exactly ... spacers, longer studs, modify the flares, flatten the slop ..i did it with a new flairs and modifying the lip which required shrinking and crimping.

... in my case this entire debocle has caused me to loose momentum .. i had to take a break and take on an easy job restoring my BOSS 302 where you buy a panel like an entire floor pan 72" x 65 and it fits right in seam to seam...take weld it in and your don't in 2 days.

Ask me any questions you wish .. this was a tense job and I have 28 years in the Pipefitting, Sheetmetal Fabrication business and these flairs are a misrepresentation ... I have still thoughts of ripping these off and fabricating 3/8 round bar and sheet metal pieces as you see they did at the factory on the early GR4 cars OR I would definitively next time mount the fiberglass ones.

Ron
H hockeydudeMember
Ron,

Thanks for the words of encourgement, and I know you are vastly more skilled than I am at metal work, and if you're having the same issues then I dont feel quite so bad.

I'm already there with the ripping off and working from stratch of modifying something else. I think Rick used Bug fenders for his (dont quote me), and I've been parusing the internet for motorcyle fender blanks to see if I can use one for the fender lip since I dont have access to all the tools I wish I did, so I tend to frankenstien my stuff to save time/effort. If I can't find something to graft it's gonna be a fun weekend with the stretcher and dolly.

Thats interesting about the wheel studs, Ive got the 2" studs as well and with the .750" spacers, I'm down to about 6 threads. Surprised you got the 1" spacers to fit.

David,
Your right on the bump stops, it would save the flare and I haven't thought of that. I still want to get this working the right way, but with that said I'm thinking bump stops will be incorporated so that one nasty pot hole doesnt mess up any flares. So thanks for the suggestion.

Dave
panteradougpanteradougMember
Seeing the results of the bonded on fiberglass flares and hearing the difficulty of the steel flares, I have to ask myself why steel.
It is also just my opinion but there is no way I would run these cars with wheel spacers and long studs.
I don't care who makes the studs, that is just plain dangerous.
You are putting the cart before the horse.
Do the flares first, then buy the wheels with the right offset.
There is already increased load on the hubs from the wide wheels and tires. Wheel spacers here are just plain dangerous.
davidnunndavidnunnMember
HockeyDude,

I can't take credit for the double bump rubber idea. Credit for that one goes to Dennis Quella. I had a problem with my 335/30-18's on 18" x 12.5" wheels rubbing on the rear upper frame rail under full suspension compression (stock bodied car). Double bump rubbers completely solved the problem and are totally un-noticeable.

As far as spacers are concerned, they are certainly not the ideal solution to your situation; however, I have to respectfully disagree with PanteraDoug. The DeTomaso factory fitted spacers to GT5's and I've never heard of anyone losing a wheel. The best example of how to use spacers correctly is Porsche. They have been fitting spacers to their cars for decades. People may or may not like Porsches but no one can argue the fact they're professionally executed, from an engineering standpoint. Remember the wide-body 911 Turbo's of the '70's and '80's? They had the same wheel and tire sizes as the narrow body cars, so Porsche filled out the wide fenders by using 1" front and 2" rear spacers. They didn't want to put wide tires on their cars because they expected the owners to drive them in the rain. Porsche's spacers are tightly hub-centric and they all use 14mm wheel studs. If you wanted to put spacers on your Pantera, I suggest you take the same approach. Have custom spacers made, that are tightly hub-centric on both the stub axle and the wheel. Don't use 12mm wheel studs, rather, have your axles machined to use the best 1/2"-20 studs you can find, or bigger. Just make sure they'll go through the holes in your wheels. Also, make sure they're long enough so you have tons of lug nut thread engagement. It should be safe and secure. If you ever encounter a force that's sufficient to shear your wheel studs off, I suspect that same force would have already ripped your control arm mounts from the chassis.
accobraaccobraMember
HockeyDude,

Depending how deep you are into this project ...it might pay to salvage rather then cut them off. The hammer / dolly idea is where I left off. Not sure where you bought the wheels but mine I had to have the taper entering the hole where the stud comes thru machined correctly. So we did take a little meat off because the taper was polished and didn't give us the correct seat for the lug nut and I get a full lug nut about 12 turns. Also take into consideration I have the brake hats mounted behind the axle ?

David I took your approach and agree with you ..this is the exact path I tool because the MW axles are tapped for 14mm / 1/2 studs and have holes for press in studs. The spacer we had made hub-centric with the axle and the wheel with 14mm / 1/2" studs. They fit perfect on the studs .. if need be we can TIG them onto the wheel .. but I don't think its necessary. I have a great consultant to run this type of stuff thru and he stated the same ... before I brake the SOLID MW axles and shear the studs off with the spacers ... the gear box will shatter in a million pieces.

Pantershah .. i had purchased the wheel adapters .. but the machining was sloppy and then I would have 10 lugs to worry about where here only 5 witht he same principal I chose custom spacers.

Doug ... my experience with bonding on fiberglass flairs .. with the different rates of expansion with steel and fiberglass and our extreme temps in NY below zero to 100 degrees ? You say why steel ... its seems obvious that if the panels were fabricated correctly ... it would be a no brainer ... as for the wheel spacers I wasnt a big fan either but they did a perfect job in fabrication I have the option of TIG ing them onto the wheel. Its obvious someone screwed up ... the wheel vendor states that's the correct offset which IT IS NOT because these wheels are 11/2 short of where they should be and the flair vendor charged me for a second set of flairs. After all the hours I have put into these things I could have made them in less time with round bar and sheet metal. Personally I think the TIRES 335/30/18 x 12.1/2" wheels are far short in height at 25.6" to make the entire package appearance correct . So we are over compensating and maybe a MT TIRE 30" tall would fit correctly.

As a recommendation HOCKEY DUDE .. should you decide to cut them off ... I would start by mounting the suspension and rims and tires ... run the round bar around to the contour you desire ... then create the flair ... you will find the hole you cut in the 1/4 panel far too large ... you will end up piecing in about 2-3 because the steel flairs purchased are way too large ... and as DOUG commented these cars already have increased load on the hubs from the wide wheels and tires even with double roller wheel bearings. So with use of Mickey Thompson tires 29 -30" height ... which would make the flairs mounted AS IS with no spacers appear correct.

I would have to take out all my old notes ..even the front tire recommended by the vendor where wrong ... they were not as low profile as the rears ... so I had to eat the 255/45/17 26.2" tall tires and change them to 245/40/17 24.5 tall so they didn't hit the front flair.

Is there any reason you can think why I lost momentum ? Lets just say for example I bought an entire floor pan ONE PIECE for my BOSS 302 and it fit in perfectly seam to seam it came with the seat pans all the gromits and e brake brackets and even the torque box panels all fit perfectly.

Ron
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

Do the flares first, then buy the wheels with the right offsets.

When I did my GR4 conversion, I was told by some "experts" that you buy the wheels and then build the flares around them.
I agree. The wheels can be ordered at any offset, so the flares get mounted first.
Will
H hockeydudeMember
All,

Thanks again for the help.

In regards to spacers, I don't think anyone likes them. However, in order to get the look I want without forking out major $$, I am resigned to using a "spacer." Right now everything is for mock up, and mock up only! I also plan on custom machining "spacers" when I have everything figured out, but right now its cheaper and quicker to run to summit and get the parts. There will be time down the road when the body is at the paint shop to get everything fixed and proper.

Ron,

I have only mocked my flares into place, and haven't bothered to install the lower front and rear peices yet, so pulling it off isn't much of an ordeal expect for knocking out a few tacks. Your photo with the additional 2.5" of material is pretty much what I had in my mind, so I guess I am on the correct path.

...and I appologize for bringing back bad memories...


I have never seen a set of fiberglass flares in person (not many group 4 cars in the area), so I'm not sure I will like the fit on them either. Also, don't want to admit defeat this early on :}

Dave
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
I can send you pics of my GR4 conversion using fibreglass flares. It came out nice. 3 yrs of hard Canadian winter storage and temp change and no problems with panel bond adhesion. Would I have preferred metal flares? Yes. But would I have put up with the extra work/$ to have them installed? No.
Will
accobraaccobraMember
quote:
...and I appologize for bringing back bad memories... Also, don't want to admit defeat this early on :}


Not a problem ... happens to be the only sore subject in my shop at the moment and not admitting defeat either ... Rome wasn't built in a day ... I will get it sorted out soon.

Will that would be great a few pics of the fiberglass flares since they were the original method on the GR4 cars to see the fit up close ..I often wondered exactly how they fit to try to duplicate. and i guess the reason for the offset of the rims as sold by the vendor is to duplicate the original look was what I was told when I asked ? I think if I remember correctly my rears have a 6.25 backspace on a total 13.25 rim width. What did you end up with ?

Ron
panteradougpanteradougMember
Will, it's your car that makes me doubt the steel along with Ron's anguish with it.
By Canadian standards, our winters are spring time? Wink
I think I would rather have a lip from the fiberglass for the paint. I just don't have faith that the paint will survive more then a few years over those welded joints without cracking. The paint, not the welds.
Since I'm not going the flare route, I don't really need to decide anything except that the fiberglass would have to be a very serious consideration for me.
Best of luck for all.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Hockydude, one problem not discussed is that running wheel spacers requires longer wheel studs. That's not only expensive (stock studs are around $16 each; dunno what longer GT-5 studs cost) but in back it also requires you to remove and disassemble both rear bearing uprights to install such studs. Seems to me that custom offset wheels would be simpler & almost as cheap.
If you do go with spacers, while the rear uprights are apart, check the press fit on your outboard stub-axles. Many Panteras have sloppy fits from the factory that eventually destroys the stub axles and bearings. Current replacement stub-axles are stronger and heavier, of better steel and fit the bearings properly. Or maybe your car has already been upgraded? The 'good' axles are not hollow.
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
quote:
I just don't have faith that the paint will survive more then a few years over those welded joints without cracking.

Proper welds and the paint will never crack.Never.

My wheels are fronts 10x17 with 5" BS
rears 12x18 4.375" BS.
I could have gone outwards another 1/2" but I wanted to be conservative.

I'll have to send pics later. The car is at a shop.

Will
Last edited by 4nhotrod
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
quote:
I think if I remember correctly my rears have a 6.25 backspace on a total 13.25 rim width. What did you end up with ?


Thats what Byers was going to send me. I sent him all of the measurements and he argued that 6.something would be "fine".
I cancelled the order and went with Wilkinson.Almost made a $5000 mistake. Steve was right on. He asked for some simple measurements and sent them over.
And contrary to what some say, custom wheels are easily ordered after flares are installed. No need to modify flares (fibreglass) after purchasing them.

Will
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
The 10 spoke Campi's used on Group 4 & GT5 cars have the following dimensions;

Rear 13" width, backspace 4.75"
Front 10" width, backspace 4.625"

Width is the distance between the inner tire bead lips and backspace is similarly flange mounting face to inner tire bead lip. Be sure to clarify that with your wheel supplier as some take backspace as to the edge of the rim.

This is what I have on my GP4 (still under construction) and the GT5. It appears to be in keeping with what Will has stated as the rear additional 1" width, but greater backspace by 0.375 pushes the wheel out by 5/8". The front would be out an additional 3/8" on mine vs. Wills.

I purchased a set of steel flares, spent an evening looking at them and duly took them back the next day. I then ordered a set of fiberglass flares which I bonded to the metal and smooth finished. My GT5 is the same (from the factory) and no de-bonding, just some minor cracking on the fronts where the tires hit as I have the ride height set very low.

Julian
Last edited by joules
davidnunndavidnunnMember
HockeyDude, so your wheels are 1.5" too far inboard. Here's how to solve your problem without spacers. Have your upper and lower control arms converted from rubber bushings to rod ends (AKA: Heim joints). Get the fabrication shop to extend the threaded mounting bosses by 1.5". Then you'll have longer control arms. OK, so you'll also need longer sway bars and driveshafts. Then, there's the matter of spacing out your tie rod ends too. So it's not cheaper than buying new wheels, but it would sure be a unique solution to what appears to be a common problem.
panteradougpanteradougMember
I'm thinking that there may be a technicality here that is causing this issue with Wilkinson? He is very knowledgeable and I find it difficult to believe he is intentionally steering everyone wrong?
On the ORIGINAL GT4 cars, does the original tire sit with a 1.5"setback over the edge of the tire?
You guys are expecting the tire to sit in a different relationship to the fender lip? You are expecting it to fill the fender more fully they it ever did originally from the factory?
No one here has ever posted pictures showing and original car to my knowledge? I don't know where you would find that, but I haven't seen that at all?
The best shot I can think of is the Warren Tope car sitting outside Ford World Headquarters when the car was new?
I'm thinking that the factory may have set back the tire into the fender to have a similar relationship of fender to tire like the 427 Comp Cobras did? Those things looked like they belonged on the Batmobile because the tire looked so small and incorrect originally and the first owners changed the rear tires to fill up the rear fenders more fully?
Look at how Dave Adlers comp car is with the tire to fender clearances in the front?
accobraaccobraMember
Doug,

I would agree that the low profile tire have almost no overhang past the rim ... I also think that the 18 x 12.5 rims need larger tires .. but not made unless you go to a drag radial etc.

Ron,

Good point. Wills fiberglass flairs and our steel flairs all seem to be the same distance to the lip. Will ordered the wheels properly with the correct backspace to compensate and Joules and Wills backspace comparison of the GR 4 stock backspace is very close and seems Myself and Hockeydude seem to be 11/2 inboard with our backspace. Does that make any sence ..LOL

Ron
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
I think were talking about two things here. Original GR4 backspacing and ordering custom wheels. I didn't speak to Steve about orig specs at all. I wasn't interested in that.
I wanted rims that would fit my flares. Simple. Steve told me to get the suspension to ride height, hang a string over the flare and measure to face of hub. I gave him that measurement and it was exactly what I calculated the BS to be.
And yes, I left 1/2' tolerance there for the drag radials I am having mounted as we type.
Big and fat! I like my tires like my women.
Will (please don't tell my wife I wrote this)
H hockeydudeMember
I agree Ron, I'm about 1.5" inboard with my wheels, which is a bummer. In my case I have a custom 14" brake set up front and rear with modified aft carriers and Ipsco hubs up front, which added to the difficulty regarding measurements. I tried to measure for the wheels with the flares mocked up, but without real wheels, and the flares being so poor out of the box, its hard to figure out what is the correct placement/shape of the flares to get good measurements. Plus, this was my first time doing this with a Pantera, so I have no experiance base to build off of. Basically, there are many factors involved, and by all means the blame must go with me. Steve did his best to help with a diffcult problem.

Theres 100 different ways to skin the wheel placement issue which are completely safe. There are another 100 ways to do it which are dangerous.

Please remember, there is "bro science" and there is physics, and many of these methods, the physics and engineering are completely sound, and the componets will see the same loading as as a wheel without a spacer. It all depends on how the system is set up. So with that, I am not going to comment on the spacer/placement issue anymore.

So trying to get back to the fender metal working, I've order some new parts (broke the jaw on my shrinker the other month), hopefully they show up on friday so I can attempt making a new lip to the fender over the weekend. Will let everyone know how it goes.

Dave
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
I think were talking about two things here. Original GR4 backspacing and ordering custom wheels. I didn't speak to Steve about orig specs at all. I wasn't interested in that.
I wanted rims that would fit my flares. Simple. Steve told me to get the suspension to ride height, hang a string over the flare and measure to face of hub. I gave him that measurement and it was exactly what I calculated the BS to be.
And yes, I left 1/2' tolerance there for the drag radials I am having mounted as we type.
Big and fat! I like my tires like my women.
Will (please don't tell my wife I wrote this)


I'm not so sure that is so. The flare makers are going to attempt to make their flares to a standard. They can't keep changing them to every one else's whim and fancy.

To me, as an interested bystander, it appears that owners are reacting to the amount of space left between the lip of the fender flare and the edge of the tire?

Everyone is installing 17, 18 or something else wheels, and not original 15 wheels.

Everyone is stuck with the tires that are available now, not 40 years ago.

There is a way to compensate to a degree by ordering a different offset to the wheels or spacing them out.

Because some are selecting different tire sizes and profiles, they are getting different results.

The part I don't like about this entire solution is that it is being based upon the tires available now and they may not exist in 5 years when you have to replace them due to the age of the tire.

I think I am satisfied with staying with the stock "slab side" car. This is all just too much of re-inventing the wheel...literally.

Best to everyone. This is a great thread.
accobraaccobraMember
Doug, I would have to agree with you ...from the measurements we have gathered here from 4 cars its appears the flairs have a very similar distance ...lets say from the face of the wheel flange. The wheels & tires are different which gives us all different results and some exactly the same. If I may comment though one feature I struggled with was the fitment of the 3 peice steel flair in an arc and around and down both sides ... unless the cars are that different ... this is also an issue not mentioned but definitely a struggle to get premium results.

Your right good post .. sad but happy to see that I can compare notes with Dave to see if we can sort this out.

Also happy to see Wills sorted his out with less effort and premium results ... also happy to see Joules sent his back ... I wish I didnt cut my car yet because mine would have been also.

Ron
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
Doug, I would have to agree with you ...from the measurements we have gathered here from 4 cars its appears the flairs have a very similar distance ...lets say from the face of the wheel flange. The wheels & tires are different which gives us all different results and some exactly the same. If I may comment though one feature I struggled with was the fitment of the 3 peice steel flair in an arc and around and down both sides ... unless the cars are that different ... this is also an issue not mentioned but definitely a struggle to get premium results.

Your right good post .. sad but happy to see that I can compare notes with Dave to see if we can sort this out.

Also happy to see Wills sorted his out with less effort and premium results ... also happy to see Joules sent his back ... I wish I didnt cut my car yet because mine would have been also.

Ron


I'm thinking that this post should get a "sticky" by George. The information posted here is priceless really if someone else is going to attempt this.

I'm honestly wondering how many cars are out there that have been abandoned and never finished?

As far as why the flares are such an SOB on the compound curves, maybe the issue is with the mule they were made from. Traditionally there is something wrong with them, like they were in a wreck, or something else drastic?

Even if everyone had waited to get the flares mounted and finalized before they got wheels and tires, how would you know what to get? It isn't exactly like trying on shoes.

This is a really expensive project to screw up on. There is nothing that is inexpensive about it at all
H hockeydudeMember
Was able to get some work done on the car this weekend, not as much as I would have liked, but managed to get the passenger rear flare set up in a way that looks good to me, and I can fully cycle the suspension. I outlined what I did below, so hopefully it can help someone with thier project in the future.

First attempt was to form a new fender lip, and then match the flare to to the lip. Seemed like a good idea, but in practice I couldn't get it work. Maybe if I had a second set of hands, but not sure to be honest.

Gave up on the lip first, and decided to start with the flare, then add the lip. I set up the flare with about 2.0" of clearance from fender lip to the tire. Used some hose to maintain this distance to the tire. After a couple of attempts at fitting, it seemed to work the best starting at the rear of the flare, lining it up with the belt line, and then wrapping it around the tire.

This works pretty well up until about top dead center of the flare, then the curvature is too far off. So ended up having to section the flare to continue with the wrap. Multiple sections required, but it lets you keep the curvature correct where the flare intercepts the body, just need to fill in the sectioned areas with new metal.

Once wrapped, the Outside flare lip wasnt straight with the car body, it was angled poorly on the fwd side of the flare. Took the measurements from the tire sidewall, and cut the flare lip so it was straight.

Next was making the new fender lip. Honestly, wimped out here and since I wasnt sure if this was going to work I just grabed some old 4" exhaust tubing and used it to save time. Multiple cuts allowed me to bend it as I needed around the tire, and maintined the nice radius. Good for a quick compound curve for mock up.

Pictures are below, sorry I'm not a posting wiz so I hope they come out OK. Everywhere you see painters tape is a modified/new area of the flare. I just used the tape to see the finish product, so my eye wouldnt by drawn to the unfinsihed parts of the flare.

Fender lip is a bit too far out for my liking, but overall I think it looks pretty good. And before anyone asks, the wheels are spaced out by 2" to achieve this fit.

Let me know if there are any questions. Plan is to mock up the driver side flare to make sure I can get it to match before I spend anymore time on the passenger side flare.

Dave

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