gt5-9189

What type of person would neglect a Pantera like this!?!?



Can you provide more info? Where is this Pantera located? Did you recently purchase this car will restore it? If you are, you've come to the right place.

Josh

It looks like it's going to be an interesting resto. Lots of luck with it!

Michael

ok guys. the car is in saudi arabia and had been abandoned on the accomodation compound i live on. the company wanted their parking space back the last owner had left over ten years ago so they were going to have the car removed for scrap !!!!!!
i ended up the owner and it cost me nothing. so it is now being slowly taken down to the last nut and bolt.

Wow! what a story, what a find. Good luck, hopefully the PI bulletin board will be a resource for you, as well as a place to hang with other owners.

George

Wow, at least you can still GIVE AWAY a white Pantera! But seriously, congratulations Mark (yet another Mark with a white Pantera...), I'm sure you're going to have a great time and an awesome car at the end of it. Sure can't beat the price, and I bet there's not a hint of rust anywhere in sight.

I (and many more, I'm sure) look forward to hearing your progress and helping if we can.

gt5,

Will obtaining a title, or some kind of ownership papers be a difficult proposition?

Michael

getting the papers will be the main problem in saudi arabia. i have the old plates and a bill of sale but both are over ten years old.i have however found out yesterday that a previous owner is now back in kingdom, used to own the car in the 80,s so there may be light at the end of the tunnel. as for there being no rust...i wish. the car is quite poor it will need new sills both inner and outer,some cretin has used the rear of the sills as jacking points and bent them quite bad ,the right hand a post and engine bulk head both need attention as will the bonnet front and the roof where the rear deck bolts on the rear deck has been repaired at some time as the rear wing is so heavy it made the deck crack. both floorpans and the hand brake mount also require attention, and having removerd the radiater yesterday i see that quite a bit of the front cross member is bent and rusty. still gives me something to do

Sounds like you have your hands full.

Welcome to the club!

Kevin

It's a great story! It's sad to see any car neglected like that, but especially such a unique one. Since you got it for a pretty reasonable price (lucky!!) it should mean that you have more cash leftover to restore it right.

Good luck!

We're all rooting for you over here! Post some resto pictures along the way.

Michael

Did you actually was those axles in your dishwasher??

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Did you actually was those axles in your dishwasher??

Michael

sure, its an old one no longer used for dishes. great for getting all the grease and muck off but you must then strip and grease up then paint up your parts. it works real well

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
We're all rooting for you over here! Post some resto pictures along the way.

Michael

thanks guys the car is now almost just a shell. i have to move it to get out the engine and box but thats about all that is still in the chassis. the shell is in very poor condition and needs extensive welding but i have plenty of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie McCall:
It's a great story! It's sad to see any car neglected like that, but especially such a unique one. Since you got it for a pretty reasonable price (lucky!!) it should mean that you have more cash leftover to restore it right.
hi mate for sure it will cost a bit in the end but at this moment in time its cost me nothing. must be the only one in the world who can say that. the car is now just a shell and will require months of welding while i clean up and repair all the other parts. gives me someting to do with my time. during the tear down i have found the car to of been at least 7 different colours, some people are just never happy ?

Good luck!

...Your question how to tell if this is a REAL GT-5? From what little I know; The 'Squared' wheel houses in the engine bay denote a GT-5. And is that a '302' Cubic Inch Engine? (I can't tell in the picture, if there is the PORT for the 'Oil Pressure Sender', in the rear of the block) OR did the 302 Engine, ONLY come in the much later 'Pantera 200' or SI ?? Anybody else know; correct me if I am wrong...

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...Your question how to tell if this is a REAL GT-5? From what little I know; The 'Squared' wheel houses in the engine bay denote a GT-5. And is that a '302' Cubic Inch Engine? (I can't tell in the picture, if there is the PORT for the 'Oil Pressure Sender', in the rear of the block) OR did the 302 Engine, ONLY come in the much later 'Pantera 200' or SI ?? Anybody else know; correct me if I am wrong...

hi there. did not know about the different type of panels in the engine bay, thought they were all squared off type. the engine has the oil sender in the front of the block. what makes me think it is not a gt-5 is that the front brakes are the standard type 2 set up but with solid disks not vented. it would be nice for my own mind to know the type of car i have.

gt5-9189, Marlin,

When deTomaso changed body manufacturers, the cars from the new one all came with the squared off rear wheel arches. These Panteras started with the 9000 chassis number. These cars were available as GTS, GT5, and GT5-S Panteras.

All Panteras came with 351C except the very last of the GT5-S's and the Si's. After '74, deTomaso had some left over US Clevelands which he used for a few years. After that, he used Austrailian built Clevelands until they ran out. Then he used a few 351 Winsdor truck motors in the last few GT5-S's. Only the Si came with the 5.0L (302) Mustang motors that deTomaso tweaked for more power.

Michael

gt5-9189,

GT5 and GT5-S Panteras are essentially the same Pantera with a different looking body. These cars had larger vented rotors and the GTS Panteras did not. There may have been a sway bar diameter difference as well. Can you measure yours?

I think that Roland (Pantera874) would probably know more about the differences between a factory GTS and GT5.

Michael

To add detail to the history provided by Michael: while Ford built Panteras they were contractually obligated to supply Panteras to deTomaso for the European market. Ford & the deTomasos parted company on Sept. 8, 1973. Ford stopped producing Panteras around July 1974, the last Pantera shipped to the US was chassis number 7380. Ford closed the deTomaso Automobili factory and sold the remaining unfinished coaches to Alejandro deTomaso, who opened another factory under the name deTomaso Modena and continued assembling GTS Panteras, at a much slower pace, using the coaches he purchased from Ford. Those cars have chassis numbers 7501 to <7700.

As the coaches purchased from Ford ran out (about 1976), deTomaso contracted Carozzeria Maggiora to manufacture GTS Pantera coaches. The relationship between Carozzeria Maggiora & deTomaso lasted less than 2 years. Those cars have chassis numbers 9001 to <9099.

After the relationship with Carozzeria Maggiora terminated, deTomaso contracted Carozzeria Embo in 1978 to manufacture Pantera coaches. Carozzeria Embo manufactured all the remaining Pantera coaches, including those of the Pantera Si. The coaches manufactured by Carozzeria Embo have chassis numbers 9101 to 9562, and 9601 to 9641 for the Pantera Si. For the first 2 years, Carozzeria Embo only produced GTS Panteras.

All the GTS, GT5 & GT5-S coaches manufactured by Carozzeria Embo have the squared off rear wheel houses.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Thanks for filling in the blanks George. I was pretty sure that the squared off chassis began with 9100, but I played it safe at 9000.

Michael

Hi George.
Perfect, I couldn't report it better.
The Maggiora chassis had serious quality problems, that's why they restarted after such a short period with the Embo chassis.
A guy in Switzerland owns #9175 and it is also an early 1980 GTS, so I think #9189 is the same.
Franz

Sorry to contradict you, Cyboman, but GT5 cars did come with 351W engines. I know this for a fact because my car (1989 GT5 #9517) was built with one.

Franz, as I recall you reported elsehere on this BB that the first GT5 was shown at the Turin Motor Show in 1980. Is there any reason why you think #9189 is a GTS and not a GT5, other than the fellow in Switzerland owning #9175 which happens to be a GTS? David Berman's list of late model cars includes these serial numbers:

#9116 - 1979 Pantera GTS - Germany
#9131 - 1980 Pantera GTS Sweden U. Campbell
#9139 – 1980 Pantera GTS Gruppo 3 – Austria
#9170 - 1980 Pantera GT5 Norway T. Bakos
#9178 - 1980 Pantera GT5 Arizona
#9182 - 1981 Pantera GT5 Atlanta
#9195 - 1983 Pantera GT5 London, Ontario, Canada - owned by Mario Malizia

Perhaps Bill van Ess can shed some light on this, but I think it is entirely possible #9189 is a GT5.


gt5-9189, insofar as it may be relevant to determining what engine you have, the 351W has the oil pressure sender on the front driver’s side of the engine. Even if yours doesn’t, I think the chances of the engine being original if it is a 302 are pretty slim – Cyboman is on the money there. Most likely you will have a Cleveland. The easiest way to tell if you have a Windsor or a Cleveland is to count the number of bolts in your valve covers. One came with six, and the other with eight bolts.

The Illustrated Pantera Buyer’s Guide by Matthew L. Stone reports that in 1983, “9250 built as first factory noted GT5 model. Prior GT5s probably recorded as modified GTS units from about late 1980.”

My car came from Dubai. gt5-9189, is there any chance you would know of a way to trace its history over there?

- Peter

Hi Peter.
I am sure that David Berman's list is ok, but the year says only, when these cars were registered in the different countries. It says nothing about the year when they were built.
My former car #9139 for example, was built in 1979 and registered in Austria as a 1980 car.
In Europe some of these GTS cars were later fitted by the owners with the GT5 fibreglass body kit.
I am sure, that the factory has sold much more body kits than real factory GT5 cars.
The same was with the Swiss car #9175. Born as an early 1980 GTS, but converted for the new Swiss owner to GT5-S body style by the factory in 1985.
Franz

Franz,
I think you're basing your conclusions on pure speculation. The only way to tell for sure is to see the factory records, and even those..as Charlie has said are spotty, at best.

Kevin

Peter,

My point was when the factory ran out of Australian Clevelands, they substituted it with a 351W for the last few Panteras made before building the Si. I've only heard of them being in GT5-S's, but with deTomaso, anything is possible!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by pantera874:
I have now the full factory records on my desk.It is a very special car. Unfortunately, the owner of the car only offered me 50.00 Dollar for the documents. So, they will remain in my desk.

Roland,
I never received a reply from you. You can get all the "rest of world" build records, but not the US built cars, Is this correct?

quote:

Originally posted by pantera874:
I have also access to records of some US build cars.

Roland,
I've talked to you in the past in regards to finding out where I can find the build packet for my car. I've spoken to Claudia, Mrs. deTomaso, Tom Tjjarda and a several hundred other people..... All of them beleive that the US built manufacturing documentation was trashed when Ford took over in 1973.

Please let me know how would you find a certain vehicle? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by pantera874:
Curios, 2765, my former car was build for the US and i bought it in Alabama in 92 was in the archives in 92. When we looked now, it was gone. So the trashing of parts of the archives was particually done later.

Roland,
In your spare time, could you look up #7087, 5/74.
Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by pantera874:
After receiving a lot of requests for histories of Panteras.
Please ask your favorite vendor, if he can help. I need my time for my customers, because my business with DT parts is still a one man show.

Thanks, Roland.

To try to return to the original topic, the engine type wasn't necessarily model-specific, it was more time-specific. When DeTomaso ran out of Clevelands, (and I've never seen anything definitive as to what serial number this occured... somewhere around 1988 I think) they substituted the Windsor... So anything built after serial number 94XX received a Windsor, be it GT5, GT5-S, or GTS.

And I can't add much to what has already been said regarding the squared-off engine bay... When Ford and DeTomaso divorced in '73, Ford, in a moment of spite, destroyed the tooling required to stamp out the car, figuring that DeTomaso wouldn't be able to continue manufacturing cars without the tooling. So instead of stamping out that area in one large die, they had to fabricate the area, welding panels together, more or less. Hence the straight, welded panels in the later cars. Again, it isn't model-specific, but instead when Alejandro ran out of stamped panels, everything from that point on was manufactured, regardless of model.

few more pics and a tale of woe as to the condition of the motor.

gt5-9189,

I'd say you have your work 'cut out' for you!

Michael

sure do but i have plenty of time on my hands. many of the stripped out components have been cleaned, tested ,painted and bagged. i need to get hold of a mig welder then i can start to get a little metal back in to the body shell to give me something to bolt all the bits back on to.any information as to the suitability of a motor from a 94 mustang to replace the very dead windsor i have just removed will be helpfull.

fow more pics to keep it updated

quote:

Originally posted by gt5-9189:
fow more pics to keep it updated

Do you use an oxy-accetaline welder, or mig or tig?? I am curious because I can maybe afford oxy-accetaline outfit, but a tig welder is wildest dream kind of thing. I could weld a mean bead thrity years ago, but haven't welded since.

9189 You are a braver man than I, thanks for the progress report, and updated pic's. She looks to be coming along at a nice pace. Please keep up the progress reports and photos.


I can maybe afford oxy-accetaline outfit, but a tig welder is wildest dream kind of thing. I could weld a mean bead thrity years ago, but haven't welded since.[/QUOTE]

DeTom, you would be better off with a nice 110 mig welder, rather than a oxy-accetaline set up. They aren't that costly. Better yet, find a local body shop that has a ressistance spot welder (pic attached) that duplicates the original method of welding from the factory( that nice little 3/8 plug weld in all the jams).

9189 is coming along nice. Keep the good work!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark#6808:
9189 You are a braver man than I, thanks for the progress report, and updated pic's. She looks to be coming along at a nice pace. Please keep up the progress reports and photos.


I can maybe afford oxy-accetaline outfit, but a tig welder is wildest dream kind of thing. I could weld a mean bead thrity years ago, but haven't welded since.

DeTom, you would be better off with a nice 110 mig welder, rather than a oxy-accetaline set up. They aren't that costly. Better yet, find a local body shop that has a ressistance spot welder (pic attached) that duplicates the original method of welding from the factory( that nice little 3/8 plug weld in all the jams).[/QUOTE]

We have a resistance welder at work. Heck we have tig, mig and all that. It is just I would get fired if I took it home or brought my car into the model shop.
I know you can get an arc welder cheap. but sheet metal needs fineese sometimes.

[ It is just I would get fired if I took it home or brought my car into the model shop.
I know you can get an arc welder cheap. but sheet metal needs fineese sometimes.[/QUOTE]


I suggest Brown Nosing the BOSS!