High Dollar Pantera market heats up...

took me a while, but I found the link to photos

1973 De Tomaso Pantera GTS 4864
http://www.artcurial.com/en/as...sthash.SF4lcWPo.dpbs

The "1973 GTS" No. 4864 certainly was an impressive sale result — considering the rather interesting write up (which seems to raise some questions about the accuracy of the description) and the rather non-original state of the car. But it seems everything sells for a lot more in Europe. I know it was DeTomaso and they would do whatever a customer wanted, but what makes that car a GTS? It doesn't have the GT in the VIN as the US cars do, no dash clock, no Ghia badge in the steering wheel or the bumper. No riveted-on fender flares either. So other than the vinyl graphics and recently re-sprayed deck-lids, why is this a GTS?

For similar money, Craig Brody's 3K mile GTS is a much more honest car and while it had some paint issues, it really is a special and unique car. Worth the money too, I suspect.

If I was (like Sharkey) in the business of selling Panteras, I'd be happy with how the numbers are going, but since all this means to me is that my insurance costs keep going up, I can't say I'm all that excited about it.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
The "1973 GTS" No. 4864 certainly was an impressive sale result — considering the rather interesting write up (which seems to raise some questions about the accuracy of the description) and the rather non-original state of the car. But it seems everything sells for a lot more in Europe. I know it was DeTomaso and they would do whatever a customer wanted, but what makes that car a GTS? It doesn't have the GT in the VIN as the US cars do, no dash clock, no Ghia badge in the steering wheel or the bumper. No riveted-on fender flares either. So other than the vinyl graphics and recently re-sprayed deck-lids, why is this a GTS?

For similar money, Craig Brody's 3K mile GTS is a much more honest car and while it had some paint issues, it really is a special and unique car. Worth the money too, I suspect.

If I was (like Sharkey) in the business of selling Panteras, I'd be happy with how the numbers are going, but since all this means to me is that my insurance costs keep going up, I can't say I'm all that excited about it.

Mark

Hello Mark; Would you be happier if your DeTomaso Pantera was depreciating & your car insurance was LESS?!.

How much has your car insurance gone up that you feel a financial strain to pay it?!

Do you also complain when you home appreciates & your home insurance goes up?!

I EASILY shoulder the cost of of a relative small increase in car insurance vs the LARGE gain in valuation of any of the 19 Sports Cars I own.

I own a 1991 Ferrari Testarossa, car has increased OVER $100.000.00 in value since my initial purchase, other cars I own, have doubled & tripled in valuation.

UNLIKE you...I'm ECSTATIC !!!...Mark

Maybe each persons perspective depends on why he/she owns the car(s); I.e. if they are investments, (Sharkey can be considered a short term investor) then yes the investor will be happy they appreciate and provide a good return.

I would be willing to bet that most Pantera owners are not in that category, they own them to enjoy them and as such the valuation increase is a double edged sword, at some point they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that.

I've said it before but IMO there is also a bit of a bubble being created here, investors who see the stock market swings as more risky than old cars! Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay on the day, but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?

It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:
Maybe each persons perspective depends on why he/she owns the car(s); I.e. if they are investments, (Sharkey can be considered a short term investor) then yes the investor will be happy they appreciate and provide a good return.

I would be willing to bet that most Pantera owners are not in that category, they own them to enjoy them and as such the valuation increase is a double edged sword, at some point they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that.

I've said it before but IMO there is also a bit of a bubble being created here, investors who see the stock market swings as more risky than old cars! Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay on the day, but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?

It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!

Hello Joules; As with ANY investment ie: Real Estate, Sports Cars, Art, Antiques, etc, etc, a RAPID escalation in value in a truncated time frame gives the holder a two edged sword with which to yield, be it gingerly or conversely aggressively.

the questions being..."1"...Does the holder deem the item as "over valued" & sell?!
"2"...Hold with the speculation the appreciation wave will continue to build and as such..."Ride the Wave".


MANY DeTomaso Pantera owners have owned their collective Panteras for decades or more. Their initial buy in cost will NEVER fall below that point, so for them, there is ONLY an upside in regards to valuation.

In Real Estate, the time tested adage is..."Location, Location, Location.

My approach to acquiring Sports Cars is "Condition & Rarity".

In answering your question... "but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?"

My answer is two-fold.

My 1991 Testarossa is the last year model before the 512 TR version, it is the highly coveted California lineage car, sold in California, has remained in California.

100 % rust-free, No accident car, ALL original body panels/paint/interior, low mileage, FAMOUS Miami Vice color scheme ( White/Tan) example.

I WOULD BUY today at it's current valuation with the caveat being..."As a long Term Investment".

In my life's experience ( I'm 57 ) investors that "wait on the fence"...FALL OFF in both directions!!!

Here's a current example.

In 2010 invested in what is referred to as a "Bulldozer Property" ( value is strictly in the land)...home is a relative "Bulldozer" in Cupertino, Ca.

Home was a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom 800 Sq Ft home on a 5,500 Sq Ft lot surrounded by $1.5 MILLION dollar homes.

Purchase price was $608,000.00.

VAST percentage of "Real Estate Experts" thought that $608,000.00 was still OVER PRICED!

I followed my own instincts & previous real estate experiences...

TODAY that "Bulldozer" is...wait for it.......1.3 MILLION!!!

So those "Expert" & "Fence Sitters" are...Crying in their collective COLD soup! & I'm sipping Vintage French champagne!

Have I made some "POOR" investments???!!...does marriage count???!!!

To the owners that are afraid to drive their DeTomaso Panteras because of the value & chance of an accident, I ask this question???!!

Did you STOP having sex because your penis might break???!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:

It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!

I totally agree whit Joules, the expensive Pantera's into Europe are for a long time for sale ,and you see they take them off the market and come back whit a higher asking price.(also no sale on those)
Higer prices do not say a better condition.
For the early (1971-74) cars is a market for under $65k , for GT5-s are other price's
GT5's are also not sell for high prices , not much people like the gleu on fiberglass extensions.
The taste into Europe is also different on the Repro cars , mostly they want it stock and original.
Thats why original low miles cars bring good money.
But cars whit work bring much less money.
Also the reputation on restored American cars is bad into Europe ,we have here a much higher standard.
Car dealers are Always say that classic cars go up ,and there is coming on a big market into China ,but dont forget People from China have no motering history like us.
No posters from a Countach on there sleeping room when they are young.
there are a few Chinese investors who invest into special classic cars.

The good thing is that Pantera's are go slowly up , that means that when you bought a Pantera for the hobby, you MAYBE get your ,,investment" back.
But most the important thing is ENJOY YOUR HOBBY CAR .
Simon

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:


It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!

There IS something going on here. It is more evident with the Mangustas though. That is a car that went from $40k to somewhere around $300k seemingly overnight.

It doesn't matter which market fuels the feeding frenzy, if that is what's happening.

Europe and the US have often been the stimulus in many types of markets for each other before.

Japan at one time fueled it as well?


I think it is more than just a couple of Panteras that have been reported to have been sold at over the $125,000 market recently.

I have to consider that a trend, and a trend that is rising at a significant rate.

The only thing that is debatable about it is what the rate of increase is now.


In all considerations the general economies of the US and Europe are fragile but showing growth. The difficulty is in analyzing the segments that are experiencing growth accurately.

The Detomaso market is so relatively small that it may be attracting both enthusiast and investors now simply because there are those that are EXPECTING the values to double, triple or more, if not now, eventually.

They don't want to get locked out of a "Cobra-ish" market where the car went from $40,000 to a million in only a few years.

There is more than possibility in the Detomaso market for that to happen.

Snicker at that remark as you will but I personally know of Cobras that were sold at $10,000 because the owner could never conceive of a bucket of bolts like a Cobra ever being a valuable asset.

Shelby once said in regards to the quality of the car, "it was made by a wine-o under the London Bridge".



Smart money is to buy in now as well as you can. The $125,000 cars are just the nibbling on the fisherman's line. The fish are trying not to attract too much attention right now, but apparently they are there.

Just like "JAWS". Listen for the music. That's the only way you can tell when the big fish is there. You can't see him.

There IS something going on here. It is more evident with the Mangustas though. That is a car that went from $40k to somewhere around $300k seemingly overnight.
[/QUOTE]
Mangusta's are build into low numbers 400 , that make's a big difference.
Early build Pantera's 5500 unit's.
Simon

Every car is a different situation.

If you want to bet that Panteras are not rising, sell your car now to prove it?

offcourse , I hope my car is rising , but you must are realistic too.
Alway's they are reference too the European market,but when you follow this you see the most expensive early cars are not sell for the asking price.
Than there is the problem that there are a lot of technical and optical isseus on cars from the States
The car dealers into Germany must sell those cars whit a warranty.
thats why they also must sell the cars for much more than into The States.

I'd be surprised to ever get the money back I invested in mine already, and still will...

But, I didn't buy the thing as an investment, so frankly, I really don't care.

When comparing current sales prices, keep in mind that the Euro-GTS model was the std narrow-body over there from '71 through about 1988, with the added possibility of anything in the GTS/Gr-3 OR Gr-4 catalogues the owner may have wanted to have factory-added. So those cars are often heavily FACTORY-optioned; not possible in the U.S. The term 'Stradale' comes to mind.

The 138 U.S-spec GTS cars with their decals & badges were a pale shadow to the typical Euro- GTS model, and prices seem to reflect that.

quote:

Would you be happier if your DeTomaso Pantera was depreciating & your car insurance was LESS?!.

I wouldn't care because I own my cars for my enjoyment, not as an investment.

quote:

How much has your car insurance gone up that you feel a financial strain to pay it?!

Did I say it was a strain? It isn't. I just get more joy from spending my cash on new parts to improve my cars than for higher insurance premiums.

quote:

Do you also complain when you home appreciates & your home insurance goes up?!

I didn't complain actually, I said " I can't say I'm all that excited". My house insurance also goes up almost every year and that doesn't excite me either. It would if I was an insurance salesman though.

quote:

I EASILY shoulder the cost of of a relative small increase in car insurance vs the LARGE gain in valuation of any of the 19 Sports Cars I own.

I too can "shoulder" the cost but the "LARGE gain" is intangible and irrelevant (to me). The benefit of my insurance is to make me whole in the case of loss or damage to one of my cars. Rising prices just mean it will cost more to replace like with like in the event of a claim.

quote:

I own a 1991 Ferrari Testarossa, car has increased OVER $100.000.00 in value since my initial purchase, other cars I own, have doubled & tripled in valuation.

So? I own a Mangusta that I bought 10 years ago for a small fraction of its current "value". It's not relevant because I have no desire or intention of selling it. But as Julian astutely noted, "they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that." The unfortunate result is beautiful cars end up in museums not on roads.

quote:

UNLIKE you...I'm ECSTATIC !!!...Mark

I'm happy that you're happy. As an investor in cars you should be happy. As a driver, I am too. Just maybe a bit less so. Then again, maybe more so.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Joules; As with ANY investment ie: Real Estate, Sports Cars, Art, Antiques, etc, etc, a RAPID escalation in value in a truncated time frame gives the holder a two edged sword with which to yield, be it gingerly or conversely aggressively.

the questions being..."1"...Does the holder deem the item as "over valued" & sell?!
"2"...Hold with the speculation the appreciation wave will continue to build and as such..."Ride the Wave".


MANY DeTomaso Pantera owners have owned their collective Panteras for decades or more. Their initial buy in cost will NEVER fall below that point, so for them, there is ONLY an upside in regards to valuation.

In Real Estate, the time tested adage is..."Location, Location, Location.

My approach to acquiring Sports Cars is "Condition & Rarity".

In answering your question... "but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?"

My answer is two-fold.

My 1991 Testarossa is the last year model before the 512 TR version, it is the highly coveted California lineage car, sold in California, has remained in California.

100 % rust-free, No accident car, ALL original body panels/paint/interior, low mileage, FAMOUS Miami Vice color scheme ( White/Tan) example.

I WOULD BUY today at it's current valuation with the caveat being..."As a long Term Investment".

In my life's experience ( I'm 57 ) investors that "wait on the fence"...FALL OFF in both directions!!!

Here's a current example.

In 2010 invested in what is referred to as a "Bulldozer Property" ( value is strictly in the land)...home is a relative "Bulldozer" in Cupertino, Ca.

Home was a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom 800 Sq Ft home on a 5,500 Sq Ft lot surrounded by $1.5 MILLION dollar homes.

Purchase price was $608,000.00.

VAST percentage of "Real Estate Experts" thought that $608,000.00 was still OVER PRICED!

I followed my own instincts & previous real estate experiences...

TODAY that "Bulldozer" is...wait for it.......1.3 MILLION!!!

So those "Expert" & "Fence Sitters" are...Crying in their collective COLD soup! & I'm sipping Vintage French champagne!

Have I made some "POOR" investments???!!...does marriage count???!!!

To the owners that are afraid to drive their DeTomaso Panteras because of the value & chance of an accident, I ask this question???!!

Did you STOP having sex because your penis might break???!!!

Mark,

I congratulate you on your investment prowess, very astute but therein I think is the difference in some of our opinion and thinking, you are first and foremost an investor, second a car guy and maybe only then as the 'commodity' is offering good returns. Most others here and that I have met in the De Tomaso community are simply car guys, the thrill of the drive and camaraderie provides far greater returns than money alone can offer.

We all reach the same destination where the value of our cars won't matter, but the journey's a lot more fun driving a De Tomaso

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Joules; As with ANY investment ie: Real Estate, Sports Cars, Art, Antiques, etc, etc, a RAPID escalation in value in a truncated time frame gives the holder a two edged sword with which to yield, be it gingerly or conversely aggressively.

the questions being..."1"...Does the holder deem the item as "over valued" & sell?!
"2"...Hold with the speculation the appreciation wave will continue to build and as such..."Ride the Wave".


MANY DeTomaso Pantera owners have owned their collective Panteras for decades or more. Their initial buy in cost will NEVER fall below that point, so for them, there is ONLY an upside in regards to valuation.

In Real Estate, the time tested adage is..."Location, Location, Location.

My approach to acquiring Sports Cars is "Condition & Rarity".

In answering your question... "but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?"

My answer is two-fold.

My 1991 Testarossa is the last year model before the 512 TR version, it is the highly coveted California lineage car, sold in California, has remained in California.

100 % rust-free, No accident car, ALL original body panels/paint/interior, low mileage, FAMOUS Miami Vice color scheme ( White/Tan) example.

I WOULD BUY today at it's current valuation with the caveat being..."As a long Term Investment".

In my life's experience ( I'm 57 ) investors that "wait on the fence"...FALL OFF in both directions!!!

Here's a current example.

In 2010 invested in what is referred to as a "Bulldozer Property" ( value is strictly in the land)...home is a relative "Bulldozer" in Cupertino, Ca.

Home was a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom 800 Sq Ft home on a 5,500 Sq Ft lot surrounded by $1.5 MILLION dollar homes.

Purchase price was $608,000.00.

VAST percentage of "Real Estate Experts" thought that $608,000.00 was still OVER PRICED!

I followed my own instincts & previous real estate experiences...

TODAY that "Bulldozer" is...wait for it.......1.3 MILLION!!!

So those "Expert" & "Fence Sitters" are...Crying in their collective COLD soup! & I'm sipping Vintage French champagne!

Have I made some "POOR" investments???!!...does marriage count???!!!

To the owners that are afraid to drive their DeTomaso Panteras because of the value & chance of an accident, I ask this question???!!

Did you STOP having sex because your penis might break???!!!

Mark,

I congratulate you on your investment prowess, very astute but therein I think is the difference in some of our opinion and thinking, you are first and foremost an investor, second a car guy and maybe only then as the 'commodity' is offering good returns. Most others here and that I have met in the De Tomaso community are simply car guys, the thrill of the drive and camaraderie provides far greater returns than money alone can offer.

We all reach the same destination where the value of our cars won't matter, but the journey's a lot more fun driving a De Tomaso

Julian

Hello Julian; I'm first & foremost a "Car Guy", as my busted knuckles, greasy overalls & an over 40 year collection of automotive tools & equipment would attest too.

I do readily admit to acquiring various Sports Cars with an eye towards possible appreciation, but NEVER secondary to the driving experience & enjoyment of the specific Sports Car.

I'm interested in resurrecting "Barn Finds".

I purposefully look for Sports Cars that have been stored, hidden from view for decades.

I've spends weeks just filling cylinder walls of frozen engines with a mixture of transmission fluid & acetone hoping to free an engine that hasn't turned in 2-3 decades.

An "investor" as you falsely perceive myself as, Would be instantly financially UPSIDE DOWN on the value of the car, if as an "investor" I had to pay a shop to restore these "Barn Finds".

For myself it's a sense of Pride & Self-Gratification to bring a Sports Car..."Back to Life"!!! & brings myself MUCH closer to intimately knowing the idiosyncrasies and nuances of the individual car/s that I have restored.

I've spent enough time around self anointed "Car Guys" ( Ferrari owners especially) that upon opening the bonnet, couldn't tell you to save their collective lives where the oil dip stick is...

Quick story...A few years ago I was invited as a guest of Ferrari/Maserati of Silicone Valley to attend the Ferrari 360 Challenge series with FULL ACCESS passes.

LOTS OF HUGE $$$$$$!!!! walking around as owners that pay for ownership into the 360 Challenge Series are in the financial 1% club.

I drove my 1991 Testarossa that has some serious engine modifications of my own design & fabrication.

I had the rear deck lid open when a gentlemen started to ask about some of my modifications as the gentle told me that he also owned a Testarossa but that mine..."SURE didn't sound like his"...I enjoy talking cars/engines & I explained the mods I had done.

So I asked..."Are you enjoying the race"?

To which he replied..."I would if my 360 was running better"!!!

So the guy I was talking to, is an owner & participant of the Ferrari 360 Challenge Series.

Now I'm curious, So I ask..."What's the rev limiter set at on your engine?!"

Guy without blinking an eye replies..." I DON'T KNOW!...When the red light ( shift indicator) comes on...I SHIFT!!!"

So here's a multi-multi Millionaire with enough disposable income to spend a MILLION a YEAR to be part of the 360 Challenge Series...BUT has NO CLUE what RPM the rev limiter is set at!!!

I would state that amongst "Collectable" Sports Cars that DeTomaso Pantera owners have the greatest perpencity to modify their cars for performance & handling gains with relative little regard to affecting value.

I'm currently cutting the front of the rear wheels wells to install brake cooling ducts.

I personally didn't think whether I was affecting the valuation of the Pantera with this modification ( NOT something an INVESTOR would do!!!) I was thinking about the added performance benefit of NOT having brake fade going into Andretti Hairpin ( turn 2) at Laguna Seca!!!

PLUS "I" feel the cooling scoops flow seamlessly into the body in the style of a Lamborghini Miura...Mark

http://www.jams.elb.vectranet.pl/miura/3fin.jpg

Lets stay on the topic of the Pantera market, please.

Everyone should feel free to offer their opinions without that opinion, or themselves, being critiqued.

"Value" seems like a double-edged sword.

quote:

"they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that." The unfortunate result is beautiful cars end up in museums not on roads.

A local fellow who imported Panteras 'back in the day', sold his LeMans winning GT40 a couple years ago and (to my amazement)shared his reason/s for selling it with me.

He told me that he'd raced the car for about 5 yrs. when he'd first gotten it, but then decided it was too valuable to take those kinds of chances with. Then every year, someone would make him an offer, and they always kept going up.

Toward the end, he found that he couldn't sleep at night if there was bad weather predicted or the car was out at a show, etc.

He also was not growing any younger, and the market for that car was really small. He knew that if he died, the IRS would come around wanting their share pronto, and that his family would be forced to sell the car. The few people who could afford the car would realize it was a 'fire sale' and would offer them less for it.

To me, those seemed like relevant thoughts about the "value" of a vehicle. When I first bought my car, I drove it like it was stolen. Now I'm a lot more respectful of the old girl.

I won't know what my car is truly worth until I sell it. At that time, I'll undoubtedly want it to be worth as much as possible.

Until then, I hope I it doesn't appreciate so dramatically that I can't bring myself to drive it. I didn't buy it to decorate my garage.

I put $35,000 + in a MGB worth half of my investment (at most). It is nice to be able to have a car worth at least what you put into it for the most part.

I kept the receipts. I have no idea how the $ add up so quickly!

Sorry to continue to hijack this, but...

Here's a video of George's shop. I know at least one of you have been there: https://vimeo.com/23947447

He told me that the Bentley and the Audi in the video were taken in partial trade for the GT40.

Of particular note (to the present crowd) are the 'bundle of snakes' exhaust from when George raced a Pantera. Look closely...

To my knowledge, George still drives all of his cars.

Here's the GT40: http://www.shelbyamericancolle...llection/p1046.shtml