If you liked the 3 deuce intake manifold, you'll love this ...

That truly is a beautiful sight! How many of these aluminum blocks were made by Ford? What's something like it worth?

Michael

Sure is pretty isn't it?

Production numbers unknown, lets just say only a few were cast. I don't know what people are paying for them, they show up at auto parts swap meets, there's no big demand, I hope they're not paying too much, more of a curiosity than anything else. But it would be cool to build an all alloy 351C. Especially if you could find the matching heads with 6 clamping bolts per cylinder.

I'm sure I'm like many Pantera owners in thinking that because our Panteras are sports cars, they should have an all-alloy motor mounted in front of the ZF.

SJ Performance of Australia is "supposed" to release their alloy block this winter. While that is cool, the price is out of the range for most enthusiasts. What the Cleveland market needs is a new, heavy duty, cast iron Cleveland block.

The biggest advantage an all-alloy motor has over one with a cast iron block is the all-alloy motor can go from zero to cool in ONE second!

your light headed friend on the DTBB, George

George,

I agree with you 100% on the all alloy motor in front of the ZF! It will happen for me one day, hopefully on my next rebuild.

Michael

George / Micheal,

Boy would I like one of those Alloy blocks right about now.......... George any idea where I can find a XE block..oh and whats your opinion on those Program Engineering main bearing caps .... billet steel .... should have some impact on the strenght of the bottom end of a cleveland ...... do you think adding a steel gurdle will help too. Oh buy the way George I'm going for it... going to build the cleveland, picked up a new Hall Weber set up...and I'm going to tackle the task of setting them up and running webers.

Ron

Ron

Ron,

save your money, the steel caps aren't needed, this ain't no small block Chevy!! lol..... Cleveland caps are good beefy pieces in their own right. I've never known a Cleveland to break a main bearing cap, they always crack in the bulkheads or open up holes in a cylinder wall. If you were drag racing, dumping the clutch at 8000+ rpm, as long as the motor is naturally aspirated I'd still say it isn't necessary, for sports car driving the stock caps are plenty.

You bought your Webers, cool!!!

I have no idea where to find a NASCAR block. I would start by asking around some of the Cleveland engine specialists, like Mark McKeown, Dan Hebert, etc. If somebody owns one, they'll probably want a good sum of money for it, you may want to consider giving SJ Performance of Australia a phone call & ask when their new alloy block will be ready for delivery. It will be a pretty costly piece too, I was told $5K USD last spring, that may have gone up since then, you know how early pricing tends to do that.

Good luck my friend.

George

I was thinking with the caps would help stabilize that area with the girdle...so I bought both! LOL I do tend to dump the clutch on occation being a drag racer from way back. Yea got the webers a great deal 2500 Mark seen a sign in a street rod at a show in Atlantic City so ran dwon there last Sunday. Brand new Hall Pantera intake with carbs, linkages, fuel lines and air cleaners. So again I torture myself. LOL

So back to the cleveland, an aluminum block is too much dinero..so I'm going with the DZAE-CA if I dont come up with some thing soon. I will fill it with block filler and pray..

Ron,

for the benefit of others, where did you purchase the main cap girdle at?

George

PI has them and the gentlemen you gave me the name of.. slips my mind at the moment. I mailed him $$ couple days ago.... had to make sure the caps would work with the girdle, still not sure, so I will foind out soon enough. I have an idea though.... I was thinking of taking it to the machine shop next to my shop and have him reproduce it to fit the steel caps once I try both together.

thanks Ron!

Ok so tell me does it pay to spend 2k on a Aussie Block 2 bolt mains they say 50lbs heavier ??

Ron,

I would pay $1K for a "used" NASCAR block with casting number XE 192540, so long as it isn't hammered to death by previous owners. (sonic check the cylinder walls)

When the NASCAR blocks were cast in Australia, some of the blocks had too much core shift (and therefore thin spots in the cylinder walls which made them useless for NASCAR). Those blocks with excessive core shift remained in Australia and were installed in production automobiles. So a block with the XE 192540 casting number located in Australia is a NASCAR reject! The core shift might be acceptable for your uses, again the only way to be sure is with a sonic check.

However, the NASCAR blocks had 4 bolt mains. If it has 2 bolt mains, it's not a NASCAR block. As I've written before, 2 bolt or 4 bolt mains have no significance to me, as far a Cleveland blocks are concerned, they are both as equally stout. Clevelands do not fail at the main bearing caps.

Just because a block was manufactured in OZ doesn't mean it is a better block. The standard Australian block is no different than the block manufactured in the US. Mind you, some Australian blocks known as "pillow blocks" are supposed to have some of the features of the NASCAR block, you need to visually inspect to determine this. The pillow blocks have raised "bumps" on the outside of the block above the core plugs. The internal bulkheads above the main bearing saddles will be as thick as the bearing saddle all the way up. The internal sides of the block above the pan rails will be as thick as the pan rails all the way up. All 8 bores should be verified with a sonic check report to be reasonably thick, minimal core shift. Cylinder walls should be no less than 0.120" thick on the thrust sides, and if at the limit, the bores should only need a clean up, not additional boring. If the block has all those things going for it, I might consider paying $1K, because it would have all the same advantages as the NASCAR block.

Having hefted a NASCAR block once in my life, I would agree it does weigh about 50 pounds more than a standard Cleveland block. Dan Jones disagreed with me on that issue once, he felt it was more like 25 pounds, I figure he must be in better shape than me!

One last got ya with Australian Clevelands. When Ford of Australia installed electronic ignition in their Cleveland, they installed an electronic distributor made by Bosch. The hole in the block for this distributor is a different size than the hole in our US made blocks! So to run a late model Aussie block, you are locked into using the Bosch distributor, or whatever performance distributors are available in Australia to replace it! The distributor hole in a US block is about 1.56".

Bottom line, before you pay $1K for a used block, a visual inspection to verify it has the heavy duty features you are looking for and a sonic check of the cylinder wall thickness should be mandatory.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

George, I found a guy at Australian Muscle Parts and he is in the US Cailf now and states he will look for one when he goes back and it may take time. First I dont have a lot of time, second with his deal how would I check this block and if he sent pics how do I confirm its the one he is sendiong me ? and how do I sonic test it and check it for cracks. So I have my radar up for a block. What does a Fontana Block go for new, what else is out there NEW.

Ron

New blocks!

The Fontana block is going for $3700 I think, it can be had with 9.2" or 9.5" deck heights. It uses Cleveland cranks, cams, oil pumps, oil pans. You can run Cleveland heads (Clevor) or Windsor heads. The timing chain, water pump, distributor, accessorie brackets are Windsor items. The cooling system is Windsor type. The rear of the block is Windsor shaped, so this block will use Windsor type intake manifolds. The only weak link in this block I've read about is the cam bearings wanting to walk out of their bores.

Dart & Ford Racing (FRPP) also have alloy blocks that are 100% Windsor itmes, no Cleveland parts fit except for the heads. Pricing is similar to the Fontana block. The Dart block is available in 9.2" or 9.5" deck heights. FRPP has wet sump & dry sump alloy blocks in 9.5" deck, their 9.2" block is dry sump only.

SJ Performance is supposed to release an alloy Cleveland block next month! Priced at $5K USD to the US! Shipping from OZ isn't cheap.

Dart & FRPP also have iron Windsor blocks in the $1800 to $2K price range, these are very good pieces, the Dart blocks have an excellent reputation. The iron in the Dart block is supposed to be of higher quality than what is used in the oem blocks. I've not read anything similar about the FRPP blocks.

World Products also sells a Windsor block, but it has earned a bad rep so I'll go no further.

Cool thing about these new blocks is that they are all available with a 4.125" bore!

your friend on the DTBB, George

Ron,

I tend to agree with the other opinions in this thread on the Australian blocks, most are no better than U.S. blocks, but some are better. If you have the itch for an Aussie block, I suggest you try Aus Ford Parts. Phil deals in Australin performance parts for Clevelands and the last time I spoke to him he had "A few dozen" Aussie Cleveland blocks in stock. At the time I spoke with him none of the blocks were for sale since he was waiting to get everyblock sonic tested before sale since his reputation is on the line. Apparently the sonic shecks are complete since he had a block on EBAY last week, 2 bolt, std bore, high nickel content block for $500.

As for aluminum blocks you may be better off spending the money else where. One thing shade tree mechanics either do not know or fail to mention is that aftermarket aluminum block/head combinations "grow" as much as .030" from crankshaft centerline to deck surface. Once the engine is up to tempature this obviously effects the compression ratio to the extent that you have lost way more power than the wieght savings is worth. Professional engine builders compensate for this by using connecting rods (not practical for street use)of similar aluminum alloy since it has the same expansion rate. Factory production blocks are a different story since they use an aluminum alloy composition that has an expansion rate similar to steel, for example the expansion rate for the current GM alloy is 1.6%, in which a Cleveland deck would grow .014".

Would I build an Aluminum block? Sure I would! But do your home work first! I can promise you that 95% of the all aluminum street motors have been parts matched incorrectly by yo-yo's that just did not know better, but love to brag about the "bling bling" under the hood. I then just smile in the face of ignorance.

I agree that there is issue with aluminum blocks and dimensional growth but would not agree that the problematic issue is change in compression ratio or that the growth is .030".

The issue relates to maintaining appropriate lash on solid lifter mechanical valve train. The growth that is cited can be attributed to the difference in the coefficient of thermal expansion between the alloy block and (primarily) the push rods. It's true that the same occurs with the rotating assembly and CR, but as can be seen from the following discussion, this is less of an issue.

The range of coefficient of expansion in these materials is 8 to 13 microstrain, depending upon the materials in question, for a maximum difference in expansion coefficient of 5 microstrain; that is to say, at most .000005"/in/degree F x the length of dissimilar materials. In reality, I believe this is actually closer to 3 not 5 micro strain. –Those who argue 5 bias everything in the direction of more growth.

At any rate, if you say a push rod is at most 9" and the change in temperature is around 170 F (70 degree day going to 240 average engine temp), doing the math at 5 microstrain you'll get growth on the order of .0076". Yup. At most .008" or so. Probably more like .005” in reality.

Not much to worry about as far as compression ratio but not as pleasant of a thought for those running high lift solid cams and large rate valve springs. Set your valve train cold and you’re potentially loose or at minimum light. Set it hot (as is the practice) and be very tight cold.

It's certainly manageable but the issue is higher valve train loading at cold and the tendency to bend push rods when warming up, especially if you hammer it straight out of the shed.

You may be wondering: Why don't all modern alloy engines today have the same problem? Answer: some are overhead cam and all are hydraulic valve train. What do racers do? It's not uncommon to preheat engines with external heating and circulation prior to firing.

IMO, with the hydro roller grinds available today, there's plenty of power to be had with them when you consider the practical issues for street engines. If you don't mind maintaining mechanical valve train, to each his own. Just another one of the many trades and compromises that must be addressed in balancing the nature of race and street engines.

BTW, another “growth” issue exists for those of us running aluminum heads on iron blocks. This can be on the order of .025" or so because it’s over a much greater distance. The heads grow more fore and aft than the block and tend to work your head gaskets. But that’s another topic.

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Good info my friend. I don't want to beat this subject to death, just add my practical observations. The alloys used in the head & block castings I've seen have been pretty good materials, they're not made from beer cans. The blocks have iron or steel liners, if the rate of thermal expansion were much different between the casting and the liner, the liners would eventually work themselves loose. This does not happen, so I must believe the manufacturers of the alloy blocks know what they're doing.

When it coms to cheap aluminum, the engine castings from Japan are some of the worst, their aluminum is very soft, easy to strip threads and easy to crack. Yet not even the Asian engines have a problem with thermal expansion in their engines.

No production engine, aluminum or otherwise runs alloy connecting rods, they are either fordged steel, or in the case of the Acura NSX, titanium. Yet the production alloy engines maintain their dimensional intergrity between parts.

Alloy rods are drag racing stuff. They use alloy rods because they're light, not because they're trying to match expansion of the rods to the block. Problem with alloy rods is they stretch and stay stretched, in other words they grow in length with use, they can only be used a short time & then they have to be removed & discarded. One of the things pro level drag racing mechanics do when they tear down the engines (which is often) is measure rod stretch.

The valve lash adjustment issue Kelly brought up is a good one too, but I don't think it is a factor that would keep anybody from purchasing an alloy block. I see it as just another reason to run a hydraulic roller cam!

Getting back to the subject of Aussie blocks for Ron & Bohdan, I want to say that the info regarding Aussie blocks is sketchy. Even the Australians appear confused about their blocks most of the time. Every time someone writes an explanation of the variations in Australian blocks, the stories change, or at least the writer will admit he is guessing at times.

The XE192540 casting number of the NASCAR block is a known thing, yet there are variations among the blocks with that casting number, probably because there was two different castings runs several years apart. I have read in print that the NASCAR blocks were high in nickle content, but that has never been confirmed by a reliable source (magazine writers & folks on the internet are not reliable sources). I have also seen a picture of an XE182540 block! What's up with that?

It makes no sense to me that Ford of Australia would have cast blocks of high nickle content that were destined to go into production autos, that's too expensive. It will be impossible for someone selling a used block to prove it's metallurgy is high in nickle content. It is also too easy for somebody with less than honest intentions to jack the price up & tell you its a high nickle block. I'm not saying that of Phil Newel however, I know Phil to be a hard working business man trying to make a living selling auto parts. I've done business with Phil & wouldn't hesitate to do so again. But I would question, does Phil really know his blocks are high in nickle content, or is he just repeating what he's been told. Australian folk lore if you see.

I would like to point out, Phil is doing right by sonic checking the blocks before offering them for sale. When it comes to thin wall cast engine blocks, that is the factor that makes or bereaks the deal.

The pillow blocks have 3 odd shaped bulges in the blocks above the core plugs on each side. This was done to increase the cooling system capacity of the blocks for certain applications, again typical of information regarding Aussie Cleveland blocks, nobody is quite sure what applications the pillow blocks were designed for, i.e. trucks only, passenger cars & trucks, etc. The increase in cooling capacity does not denote that the block is any structurally better. Some say the pillow blocks have some of the features of the NASCAR blocks, others say yes but to a much lesser degree.

There is so much confusion, which is why my advice to you is to educate yourself regarding the differences between the NASCAR block & a standard block, and then verify VISUALLY for yourself what you are buying, because they are asking a lot of money for these used parts.

I guess I should have explained this from the beginning, I apologize for my laziness. I think it is cool that Ron & Kelly have contributed, provided more info, keeps the topic interesting. I enjoy learning too, and it challenges me to be more thorough. I'm sure its boring for everyone if I'm the only person responding to engine questions. So thanks guys.

Everyone enjoy your Sundays! Drive 'em if you got 'em!

your friend on the DTBB, George

George ,
I thought it was just me confused, and I dont plan to make ant trips to Australia naytime soon, so unless someone sells me a block with some sort of guarrantee that the block is a XE block with sonic tesing, metal content, and or heavy duty castings, it looks like the D2AE 4 bolt block is going to be built for a max power band of 6000 rpm and make as much horse power for the least amount of money. Looks like a stroker with the existing iron I have and webers. I cant risk the first time I miss a gear I end up with a pile of nuts and bolts. There is a BOSS 302 for sale in one of the sites. Now that was a screamer. George your not boring me.........anyone bored ! LOL

Ron

Hi back at 'ya George.

Don't want to hijack the thread but I guess it did start out as an (SK) alloy block discussion.

Just to be clear, I was referring to push rods not con rods in my previous post. The difference in the expansion of these materials (aluminum block versus stell alloy push rods), is relevant especially in big lift, big horse power, mechanical valve train, engines. It makes it more challenging to set lash such that valves can properly seat yet not so loose that your push rods rattle and suffer premature wear (or worse) at cold.

The "quality" or particular alloy of aluminum has little affect on it's expansion coefficient. Aluminum and iron alloys have different thermal expansion rates. -The mechanical properties of metals can be very stubborn things indeed. They just refuse to cooperate!

I would offer the following comments on the example cited regarding cylinder liners in alloy blocks.

I would not assume that because Asian engines (or any other alloy engine for that matter) do not appear to have expansion problems that it wasn't a problem. It was just well addressed through design.

The liners want to grow less than the block as it heats. It's simply an interference fit that was designed to accomodate the issue. The liners stress the block as it cools. The block is just massive compared to the relatively thin liners, it constrains the liners and strains a little under the stress. It's a pretty fundamental issue when designing press fits for dissimilar materials.

On the topic of Aussie blocks here's my 2 cents. I wouldn't pay a "nickel" more for any of the so-called high nickel blocks that are essentially the same castings as all US blocks, high nickel or not. Fact is, 2-bolt Cleveland blocks are quite adequate for just about all practically streetable engines. I know, I'm about to start the debate all over again. Just my opinion guys.

The true XE or Nascar blocks as some say are different animals and interesting pieces. I certainly would prefer an XE block over a standard Cleveland block provided that either sonically tested favorably.

For Pantera owners they may make sense (except their scarcity and thus cost) because all accessories bolt directly. As all know, these blocks had substantially more material in the lower end but unfortunately no more in regard to cylinder wall thus no overbore potential.

I went with a 9.5" deck iron Dart block and I have a Fontana block. I went 4.125" (and they say they can go 4.25") bore 4.000" stroke for 427 CI. If some one offered me either an XE block or this block I'd take the Dart block hands down. It's a real nice street motor Brodix BF301 heads, makes 530HP @ 6000 rpm at the flywheel, and more importantly has an impressive torque curve that starts early and gets better. To be quite frank, as I inferred above, the Dart block is overkill for a street motor but the lower end was built to take some pounding and the top end can flow enough to support substantially higher numbers.

I'm hopeful that at some point in the future it may see some track time. That's why I went with the aftermarket block. The short block and top end were built to handle more ponies and all that would be needed to put down some big numbers would be to change over hydro-roller to solid roller and corresponding valve train.

The downside, Darts are all Windsor externally, lot's of work to convert the Pantera to tall deck and accessory interface.

Bottom line guys, build what you can afford and drive it like it was meant to be driven.

Enjoy your rides fellas.

Kelly

Amen Kelly! Perfectly stated.

I understood you were referring to push rods, it was Ron that had mentioned alloy con rods.

Stroker motor, Brodix heads, hydraulic roller cam (?), sounds like an outrageous motor! Bitchen.

I'll bet you're running IR fuel injection!

Very very cool, very good decisions, very reasonable output. Aren't motors these days unbelievable? I remember when 1 bhp per cubic inch was a big deal! (except for Cleveland motors, which could easily exceed that from the beginning)

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Guys thanks,

My intention is not to have to reinvent the wheel by changing everything, with that I mean a windsor conversion means everything but the motor mounts and bell housing gets scrapped and then everything becomes windsor. So with that if I can find a XE Nascar block thats beefier, thats the simplest. Of coarse the next step would be improving oiling but thats not impossible.

I realize all of the technical info on expansion rates and compensation in valve train components, but those days are gone for me... I had my share of aluminum rods .....and oh just one more run and one more sunday.... thats when the rods length made it to the valve cover !! LOL Durability is what I need, want to run this on the track at club events and not have it come apart. This can be accomplished, I have done this before.

Maybe I like the punishment of searching for some thing I cannot find an XE nascar block ??? LOL

Money ? I wont say its a bottomless pit, but if I had to buy a DART block and build it up from there wouldnt the cost far exceed looking for an XE nascar block ? Or is the DART windsor that much better then a XE nascar block.

Ok one last question. I found a guy in the UK, he posted for sale a aluminum 351c engine, George if I pulled the email could you look this over for me ??? he wants a lot of money but, if I liquidate what I got and think of how much I will spend on the new engine, I might end up close ??

Ron

Ron,

I remember seeing that motor in the parts for sale section.

It will be an aluminum block cast in the late '60s, identicle to the one in the picture at the beginning of this topic. Below is a picture of the bottom side of that same block.

I'll be glad to look over the e-mail, forward it to my e-mail address.

Please also read my new post about a movement to get a new iron Cleveland block cast.

George

George those look like bags of money next to that block is that in the back of the get away car ??? LOL

Ron

quote:

. I found a guy in the UK, he posted for sale a aluminum 351c engine

That's the guy who claimed it was the engine that won the Engine Masters Competition. I know this to be a lie since I sold Kaase the cast iron XE block that he used for his winning entry. I'd be very suspicious of that seller. Also, notice the damage in the lifter valley of the SK aluminum block. I've talked with three guys who are familiar with those blocks and they said they all did that. I'm out of town now but when I get back, I'll post some pictures of the matching aluminum heads.

Coincidentally, I've recently come up with another XE Aussie NASCAR block. I might be talked out of it, Ron. The interesting thing about this one is that it came with a Ford part number forged steel crank. The usual sources all claim Ford never made a forged steel crank for the 351C but they are wrong. Ford made the tooling right before they pulled out of racing and Roy Combs made the cranks on Ford's tooling for select racers of the day.

Dan Jones

Dan, as usual, thank you.

Ron, there's your block!

your friend on the DTBB, George

Dan,

Dan,

That aluminum engine was scetchy from the start, and as George stated, the ngine builder and dyno info was never available. But the price sure was firm ? LOL

As for your XE block, yes I have been in the market for a block, less the crank, but the steel crank sure is a prize. I found once a 428CJ crank out of a nascar engine in which I was told I was crazy becuase they were never made..... well I had one but it was cracked.

Anyway please email me ronmarl@optonline.net so I can twist your arm into selling it to me.

Ron