What would be the issues with increasing the cooling system pressure from 13 psi to 16psi to give a higher boiling point to the coolant?
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I did it. I forget if I used a 16lb. or 18 lb, cap. That and changing to Water-weter added a little piece of mind. He's right about checking all your clamps and hoses. I have a new radiator too. If there is a weak link, you might find it by upping the potential pressure. Happy New Year to all my Pantera friends.
Doug,
I would be concerned with the weak link being the 30+ year old heater core behind the dash board.
Food for thought:
The best way to improve the Pantera cooling system is to eliminate restrictions in the cooling system that will improve the flow-rate of the coolant. The second best improvement will be to increase the surface area of the radiator (make it thicker).
An illustration of the magnitude of improvement in coolant flow rate that is needed: the high flow coolant pump sold by Edelbrock is rated for 35 GPM, the coolant pump in the Ford GT is rated for over 100 GPM.
A 1971 Mustang had 1 1/2" hose between the block outlet & the radiator, and 1 3/4" hose between the radiator outlet and the water pump inlet. The Pantera uses 1 3/8" tubing in both directions, and the tubing is 4 or 5 times the length too! The swirl tank and the two pass radiator are also flow restrictions.
A thicker radiator provides more surface area for heat transfer, but the thickness of the radiator also resitricts air flow more. Some core designs restrict air flow worse than others, the worse design is the core of the stock FIAMM radiator. The radiator I had built by Evans for 6018 has two rows of 1 1/2" wide tubes and is a single pass design, it was designed to restrict coolant flow as little as possible. This core design is also less restrictive to air flow.
Happy New Year,
George
I would be concerned with the weak link being the 30+ year old heater core behind the dash board.
Food for thought:
The best way to improve the Pantera cooling system is to eliminate restrictions in the cooling system that will improve the flow-rate of the coolant. The second best improvement will be to increase the surface area of the radiator (make it thicker).
An illustration of the magnitude of improvement in coolant flow rate that is needed: the high flow coolant pump sold by Edelbrock is rated for 35 GPM, the coolant pump in the Ford GT is rated for over 100 GPM.
A 1971 Mustang had 1 1/2" hose between the block outlet & the radiator, and 1 3/4" hose between the radiator outlet and the water pump inlet. The Pantera uses 1 3/8" tubing in both directions, and the tubing is 4 or 5 times the length too! The swirl tank and the two pass radiator are also flow restrictions.
A thicker radiator provides more surface area for heat transfer, but the thickness of the radiator also resitricts air flow more. Some core designs restrict air flow worse than others, the worse design is the core of the stock FIAMM radiator. The radiator I had built by Evans for 6018 has two rows of 1 1/2" wide tubes and is a single pass design, it was designed to restrict coolant flow as little as possible. This core design is also less restrictive to air flow.
Happy New Year,
George
It's only a 3 psi increase. If I consider why current production vehicles run 16 it is basically for more boil over security.
When these components are tested, it is with thirty or forty psi.
Am I going to inflate the brass? Not with only 16 psi yet if provides a safety factor for boil over.
That thought certainly seems to fit into my concept of the Pantera.
I'm not going to argue with anyone. I just want to hear some feedback. At this point, kicking this around can't hurt.
If a thirty year old heater core is suspect then what about my thirty year old radiator?
Keep those thought coming. Yes, even you Mark.
When these components are tested, it is with thirty or forty psi.
Am I going to inflate the brass? Not with only 16 psi yet if provides a safety factor for boil over.
That thought certainly seems to fit into my concept of the Pantera.
I'm not going to argue with anyone. I just want to hear some feedback. At this point, kicking this around can't hurt.
If a thirty year old heater core is suspect then what about my thirty year old radiator?
Keep those thought coming. Yes, even you Mark.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It's only a 3 psi increase. If I consider why current production vehicles run 16 it is basically for more boil over security.
When these components are tested, it is with thirty or forty psi.
Am I going to inflate the brass? Not with only 16 psi yet if provides a safety factor for boil over.
That thought certainly seems to fit into my concept of the Pantera.
I'm not going to argue with anyone. I just want to hear some feedback. At this point, kicking this around can't hurt.
If a thirty year old heater core is suspect then what about my thirty year old radiator?
Keep those thought coming. Yes, even you Mark.
I went the other way with the pressure and only run a 13 pound cap because my surge tank is on the low pressure side of the system now. The cooling system in these cars is as twisted as it can get. I don't think you could restrict it much more than it already is if you tried. I found that it is much better to take out the restrictions, such as the surge tank and flow more water through the radiator. This modification worked for me and I have made two trips to Las Vegas through the desert in late April with this set up without any problems.
OK. If I increase the pressure does it increase the velocity through the system?
Removing the surge tank may be a good way of improveing the system.
I suppose that can be as simple as splicing in a Moroso T with a filler car? Why is the surge tank need at all?
Removing the surge tank may be a good way of improveing the system.
I suppose that can be as simple as splicing in a Moroso T with a filler car? Why is the surge tank need at all?
slightly off topic, but would an electric water pump mounted say near the radiater help ? it would still use the engine water pump. this would be a help as it would push the water to the factory pump.
Over here we have these pumps that you can use instead of the factory pump, but I was thinking of using it as well. I notice on my car when you stop in traffic it doesn't warm up, but when you take off again it does !! this shows slow water flow in my opinion.
Over here we have these pumps that you can use instead of the factory pump, but I was thinking of using it as well. I notice on my car when you stop in traffic it doesn't warm up, but when you take off again it does !! this shows slow water flow in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
OK. If I increase the pressure does it increase the velocity through the system?
Removing the surge tank may be a good way of improveing the system.
I suppose that can be as simple as splicing in a Moroso T with a filler car? Why is the surge tank need at all?
The surge tank stays in the system and goes on the low pressure side. It is a major restriction on the high pressure side when the water pump has to push water through it. A good high volume wate pump like a Flow Kooler brand is also a good idea.
Just curious, but why increase the pressure?
There are a lot of better, simpler and cheaper ways to improve cooling. Such improvements are necessary on a 30 yr old car and when done overheating becomes a distant memory.
There are a lot of better, simpler and cheaper ways to improve cooling. Such improvements are necessary on a 30 yr old car and when done overheating becomes a distant memory.
quote:Originally posted by deeb:
Just curious, but why increase the pressure?
There are a lot of better, simpler and cheaper ways to improve cooling. Such improvements are necessary on a 30 yr old car and when done overheating becomes a distant memory.
By increasing the pressure on the system you can raise the boiling point of the coolant and keep the water in the system a little longer. It is something that was done a lot on Panteras in the early days and I did it also. These cars need better low speed air flow through the radiator and more coolant flow. If you are not making a lot of horse power, you won't need much more coolant flow or air flow than the stock set up. I also found that out with my car after I increased the compression and installed a larger cam.
I have over 520 hp and still use the stock water pump. Compression is 10.5:1.
Even with my old stock rad I could sit in traffic all day and barely break 200 degrees. With my new Fluidyne, even after a high speed run on the highway I can sit idling in the 90 degree sunshine in my driveway and barely get to 200 degrees.
On the highway I have to turn my fans off or I would drop to 160 degrees. And that's on a hot day!
I think it has more to do with good new cooling tubes, hoses and a proper thermostat - along with good engine circulation, ventilation and oiling systems.
Even with my old stock rad I could sit in traffic all day and barely break 200 degrees. With my new Fluidyne, even after a high speed run on the highway I can sit idling in the 90 degree sunshine in my driveway and barely get to 200 degrees.
On the highway I have to turn my fans off or I would drop to 160 degrees. And that's on a hot day!
I think it has more to do with good new cooling tubes, hoses and a proper thermostat - along with good engine circulation, ventilation and oiling systems.
quote:Originally posted by deeb:
I have over 520 hp and still use the stock water pump. Compression is 10.5:1.
Even with my old stock rad I could sit in traffic all day and barely break 200 degrees. With my new Fluidyne, even after a high speed run on the highway I can sit idling in the 90 degree sunshine in my driveway and barely get to 200 degrees.
On the highway I have to turn my fans off or I would drop to 160 degrees. And that's on a hot day!
I think it has more to do with good new cooling tubes, hoses and a proper thermostat - along with good engine circulation, ventilation and oiling systems.
Are these gauge temperatures that you are talking about or actual temperatures taken with an I/R heat gun? If the coolant tubes under the car are plugged, then I can understand there being a problem with flow, but there isn't much room for improvement in that area because you can only increase their size a little bit more than the stock size. If you are running a 160 degree thermostat, then I think you are running this engine a bit on the cool side. The stock cooling system flow design is restrictive. I reduced operating temperatures one my car by increasing the coolant flow to and from the radiator. If you can get by with your system and lots of horse power, then good for you. I have seen many Panteras that their owners say don't run hot, pull into the parking lot in Las Vegas in late April and dump coolant all over the ground. I think it must be the sinful nature of the place that causes these problems with Panteras or that dam stop and go traffic and desert heat.
Keep going everyone. I love this hissyfit stuff.
I'm still thinking what harm can I do by going to 16 psi? I still need to look at the chart but won't that give me a 260 boil over? I think so.
I am tempted to make a data chart and record what everyone has done. Radiators, waterpumps, variations from stock on the plumbing, vs results.
Many years ago Gary Hall told me that the stock system is fine with a 160 thermostat in it. He said that the engine will run at normal temperatures with it because the problem is the distance from the engine to the radiator.
The distance is good for a 20 degree difference.
He said that if you do anything, put the Phoenix radiator in the car.
I am not preaching to anyone here. I am just repeating what I was told. How many Panteras do you think Hall fixed? A couple of hundred maybe?
I don't have the credentials to debate with Gary.
I will say that more then any vehicle I have ever been involved with the Pantera gets more overreactions then anything I've ever seen. On absolutely every subject, except one maybe, the a/c.
You know me? I do not like to be critical of anyone now, right?
I'm still thinking what harm can I do by going to 16 psi? I still need to look at the chart but won't that give me a 260 boil over? I think so.
I am tempted to make a data chart and record what everyone has done. Radiators, waterpumps, variations from stock on the plumbing, vs results.
Many years ago Gary Hall told me that the stock system is fine with a 160 thermostat in it. He said that the engine will run at normal temperatures with it because the problem is the distance from the engine to the radiator.
The distance is good for a 20 degree difference.
He said that if you do anything, put the Phoenix radiator in the car.
I am not preaching to anyone here. I am just repeating what I was told. How many Panteras do you think Hall fixed? A couple of hundred maybe?
I don't have the credentials to debate with Gary.
I will say that more then any vehicle I have ever been involved with the Pantera gets more overreactions then anything I've ever seen. On absolutely every subject, except one maybe, the a/c.
You know me? I do not like to be critical of anyone now, right?
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Keep going everyone. I love this hissyfit stuff.
I'm still thinking what harm can I do by going to 16 psi? I still need to look at the chart but won't that give me a 260 boil over? I think so.
I am tempted to make a data chart and record what everyone has done. Radiators, waterpumps, variations from stock on the plumbing, vs results.
Many years ago Gary Hall told me that the stock system is fine with a 160 thermostat in it. He said that the engine will run at normal temperatures with it because the problem is the distance from the engine to the radiator.
The distance is good for a 20 degree difference.
He said that if you do anything, put the Phoenix radiator in the car.
I am not preaching to anyone here. I am just repeating what I was told. How many Panteras do you think Hall fixed? A couple of hundred maybe?
I don't have the credentials to debate with Gary.
I will say that more then any vehicle I have ever been involved with the Pantera gets more overreactions then anything I've ever seen. On absolutely every subject, except one maybe, the a/c.
You know me? I do not like to be critical of anyone now, right?
A 160 degree thermostat is running your engine too cold and causing a lot of wear. Don't assume it will run hotter because of coolant flow distances, because it won't on a cold day and a 160 degree unit when it is full open won't flow any more water than a 180 degree one. The stock fan set up that blows through the radiator is not efficient. The ones that pull air throught work much better. From my memory of the Hall Phoenix radiator, it seems that it was thicker than the stock unit and did not flow air through it as well.
Gary Hall did more for the Pantera than any single individual anywhere. If it had not been for him getting into the parts business and trying to keep his car's running, this car may have just been a foot note in automotive history. Gary Hall is also a business man that sells products just like the rest of the vendors and he has his opinions. With the all the different engine set ups that people run, it is hard to judge any one cooling system set up. The thing that I do know is that the more horse power you produce, the more heat you will make and getting the system to cool off is where the problem is and almost always at low speed.
quote:Gary Hall did more for the Pantera than any single individual anywhere. If it had not been for him getting into the parts business and trying to keep his car's running, this car may have just been a foot note in automotive history.
Although I'm not a big fan of Hall Pantera, your comment is spot on.
quote:A 160 degree thermostat is running your engine too cold and causing a lot of wear. Don't assume it will run hotter because of coolant flow distances, because it won't on a cold day and a 160 degree unit when it is full open won't flow any more water than a 180 degree one. The stock fan set up that blows through the radiator is not efficient. The ones that pull air throught work much better. From my memory of the Hall Phoenix radiator, it seems that it was thicker than the stock unit and did not flow air through it as well.
I am not arguing, I am interpreting what he said differently. My interpretation is that in a Pantera, a 160 thermostat is the equivelent of a 182 in another car.
The thermostat flows no more coolant but becasuse the coolant needs to travel further to the radiator it needs a head start to get there to keep the coolant at 182. Particularly under summer desert conditions.
I'm in southern NY. A high percentage of my Pantera driving eliminates cold temperature driving.
With a stock '73 water coolant system and a 160 thermostat, guess what? The car runs right around 185. Amazing?
Maybe it's my polished stainless cooling pipes?
Or my corrected Wieand pump?
Under these conditions, I probably don't need a 16 psi system but I still haven't convinced myself why it's a bad idea.
My best answer to myself is if it isn't broken don't fix it and leave well enough alone.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I am not arguing, I am interpreting what he said differently. My interpretation is that in a Pantera, a 160 thermostat is the equivelent of a 182 in another car.
The thermostat flows no more coolant but becasuse the coolant needs to travel further to the radiator it needs a head start to get there to keep the coolant at 182. Particularly under summer desert conditions.
I'm in southern NY. A high percentage of my Pantera driving eliminates cold temperature driving.
With a stock '73 water coolant system and a 160 thermostat, guess what? The car runs right around 185. Amazing?
Maybe it's my polished stainless cooling pipes?
Or my corrected Wieand pump?
Under these conditions, I probably don't need a 16 psi system but I still haven't convinced myself why it's a bad idea.
My best answer to myself is if it isn't broken don't fix it and leave well enough alone.
My engine would run at 160 degrees at highway speeds if I installed a 160 degree thermostat. That is in southern Arizona where it can get a little hot, but can also be cold depending on the time of year. Have you checked the calibration of your gauge? Do you know that the temperature that you are reading is what it says? If you are happy with a 160 degree thermostat, then that is good. I wouldn't run one in anything that I own because of the engine wear that it causes, but that is just my opinon. If you want to raise the system pressure to 18 or 20 pounds, then just do it. It will raise the boiling point or boiling over point.