Interior engine cover

Hum. I didn't mean to like my own post but heck, even though it was an accident, why not? LOL!

Now that is thinking outside the box, I like it. Thanks for the pics. Did you drop the alt down or do something with the water pump?

I don't think it hurts to like your own posts.

Marlin, if I tell you how, are you going to mill it all out of billet titanium? LOL!

You aren't going to allow WOOD SAW DUST in your shop are you?

The panels are tiered because each one needs to be to be cut around the pulleys as you step them up.

The only way I can explain that is to disassemble the thing step by step to show you what to do! OH NO! I'm trying to get the car TOGETHER, not apart!

The largest culprit is the water pump projection. I actually toyed with the idea of shortening the shaft for the pump. There what I did was have a custom pulley made which pushed back the groove as close to the pump housing as possible.

Shortening the pump shaft and pushing the pulley way back is still a good idea since the face of that pulley is about 1/4" under that plastic plug cap that you see. So the cap is the elbow saver.

Ford had reason to build the water pump that way and Detomaso was forbidden to "open or modify" the engine like that but there is no practical reason for the pump shaft to be that long in the Pantera.

You would have to remove the drive flange, shorten the shaft and repress the flange back on, then have a custom pulley made BUT you likely could eliminate that outermost "elbow pad"

There should be a "special Pantera water pump" for that reason.

The other panels are hollowed out to fit around the pulleys and belts.

What is interesting is that the plywood actually deadens the engine sounds and adds heat insulation to the cabin where none ever existed from the factory.

It also makes front engine access much easier.

Let me see how much interest there is in this and maybe if I can find that bottle of Tequilla and it will help me convince myself to disassemble it and take pictures.

It is very effective in civilizing the passenger seat space and while I agree that it isn't as aesthetically pleasing as I would like, it absolutely does work for sure.

I think it is a very good solution particularly because it is low tech and as a result not a very expensive project to do. There is nothing particularly difficlt to find with the exception of the custom water pump pulley. That was not outrageously expensive either. Maybe $100 and it came in about a week.

I did relocate the A/C pushing the mount closer to the engine, but that was simple and not rocket science at all.

Let's see, tequila, where are you? "Bottle of wine, fruit of the vine, are you gonna' let me get sober?" See, I'm starting already! Yikes. You guyz!

@haydude posted:

Now that is thinking outside the box, I like it. Thanks for the pics. Did you drop the alt down or do something with the water pump?

I don't think it hurts to like your own posts.

Creative thinking is right up to the line of being nutz. Maybe even over the line?

For those who do not know that Kirk Evans at Amerisport offers bulkhead reduction kits, here is the link.

He took a different approach in retaining a bubble but reduced the size of it.

I just wanted mine to disappear as much as possible.

https://www.amerisportindustri...khead_reduction_kits

There actually once was a 'shorty' Ford water pump made for V-8 street rods. It's for a 351-W but can be made to fit a Cleveland without welding. It's 1-1/2" shorter, cast by wholesale supplier Buddy Bar in Southgate, CA that sand-casts up stuff like this but doesn't sell to the public. This pump is no longer sold new by Ford.  You might get lucky at a swap meet. I have one on my Fontana block.

@bosswrench posted:

There actually once was a 'shorty' Ford water pump made for V-8 street rods. It's for a 351-W but can be made to fit a Cleveland without welding. It's 1-1/2" shorter, cast by wholesale supplier Buddy Bar in Southgate, CA that sand-casts up stuff like this but doesn't sell to the public. This pump is no longer sold new by Ford.  You might get lucky at a swap meet. I have one on my Fontana block.

The stock water pump IS the problem with creating a flat engine cover. The other pulleys are child's play by comparison.

I had only read about the low profile water pump and by the time I went to work on this project seriously, it was only a legend with no direct evidence it had ever existed.

A low profile "Cleveland" pump will absolutely fix this issue in an instant.

If you look at the pictures of my panels, the two small panels, the round one out most an the slightly larger oblong one directly beneath it, total 1-1/2" in height combined and are bridging the water pump projection.

A water pump as you say, 1-1/2" lower positively eliminates the necessity for those two and would provide a much more pleasing aesthetic solution.

I would not be shocked if someone like Randy Gillis told me that he had seen one and it existed because of the Ford Indy Racing program like the aluminum Cleveland blocks did?

The problem there is that in some cases there are only a few that were ever made and never got past the initial testing part where they could be offered to even a limited market like the "racing crowd".

If Detomaso couldn't get access to them even when needing 7,000 Cleveland engines, there "ain't no way I'm gonna' get one either?"

Although I DID come across this in a Google search.

https://www.ford.com/product/3...ter-pump-p2740727909

You have reopened this subject again Boss Wrench. Now I need to figure how this fits? Marlin? You game to see how it fits?

Ford ran off special engines for Shelby and he didn't need anywhere near 7,000 special engines built? I suppose it depends on who you know and how you are viewed at Ford?

I'm still surprised at the friction Detomaso had with Ford during this period. It makes little sense. Either you are an insider or an outsider?

As for the alternator sticking out into the passenger seat back area, that can be fixed two ways. The first is to cut 1.00" from the long mounting boss under the alt, and use that cut piece as a spacer between the alt and the outer part of the mbig mounting bracket. This moves the alt back with a stock length mounting bolt, and utilizes the middle pulley groove on a stock crankshaft pulley. The useless idler pulley is deleted and a shorter vee belt is needed. No other changes are required.

The second method uses the upper mounting intended for an air pump on wide-body '80s GT-5 and GT-5s engines, and also requires using the middle sheave on a stock crank pulley.  These later brackets were obviously different from the earlier brackets but bolt on perfectly.

That IS an interesting thought….

Milling the snout off sounds fairly straightforward, and cutting a seal seating recess….

I guess it depends on if the casting is designed to keep the water back within an inch of the face of the casting…

For a good machinist (as we have on this board), none of this is a technical challenge…  it all depends on what you find when you start milling down that casting…

Rocky

Well the question is whether it is better to adapt the Ford Racing 351w pump or machine down a 351c? Any volunteers?

I have no experience either way.

With the tower on the stock water pump cut back, the water pump pulley will wind up as flat. The alternator is moved back as Boss Wrench describes as is the A/C. This is where the flat bulkhead becomes reality.

The stock 351c water pump casting actually looks like it has been extended. It is suggestive that it can be shortened some. The number that you are looking to reduce that is by around 1-1/2".

I wouldn't expect the shaft to require a bearing that is 3-1/2" deep? That part of the pump casting is very similar if not identical to the 351w pump housing which can be cut down and is available now shorten exactly 1-1/2".

The key to a flat bulkhead is a low profile water pump.

Personally, my problem with cutting down the water pump nose is reassemblig the thing. Water pumps usually use a pair of sliding discs known as a 'carbon seal' and getting them back in, with a proper press fit, without cracking them or leaving too much clearance, I've been unsuccessful. FWIW, the seals are sort of like old VW bug throwout bearings but thinner. Maybe I need instruction?

I have a stock Ford water pump in my engine parts bin I can take a look at…. Maybe try and get some dimensions off of….

Likely if it was easy, it would be a common mod, especially if it eliminated a lot of the hump!

FWIW, I'm still using an ancient Weiand aluminum water pump (half the weight of an iron stocker) that I bought in the early '80s. I cracked and TIG-welded it, modified it with an impeller backplate (made no difference in cooling), and it's still on the 351-C! But I really look it over for leaks before driving any distance. Some speed parts were well made back then.

@bosswrench posted:

FWIW, I'm still using an ancient Weiand aluminum water pump (half the weight of an iron stocker) that I bought in the early '80s. I cracked and TIG-welded it, modified it with an impeller backplate (made no difference in cooling), and it's still on the 351-C! But I really look it over for leaks before driving any distance. Some speed parts were well made back then.

I haven't had the cover off in awhile. Mine is the Wieand pump and as I remember it, it only needs the shaft shortened.

I'd work on this now but it is the same issue as before. I don't want to drain the system and rebleed the thing again.

This is a 68 302 water pump housing. It has been stripped of the internals.

You may notice that the water outlet is on the passenger side. That was changed to the drivers side in 1969 and later, but other then that it is the same pump.

You can see the height of the bearing support and as I have the guts out and can measure where the bearing and seal sit internally, it is very clear that the nose can be machined down at least 1-3/4" if not a maximum of 1-7/8".

The bearing, seal, impeller locations will all remain in the same location. The "weep" hole remains untouched.

What would need to be shortened also is the output side of the shaft, and a new flat pulley made.

This indicates to me that shortening the snout on the pump is clearly doable and therefore, having a two level "flat cover" v. the four level as in my pictures is very feasible.

I don't have a mill to machine a housing down and I don't have a seperate 289-302-351w water pump to see how difficult it would be just to use an existing shorten version of them to the Cleveland?

It would seem though that it would be simplest just to cut down a Cleveland version?

With care and lots of work with a hand file etc, you can cut the housing snout off without a mill. And the Ford Racing handbook gives the desired dimensions for the housing & impeller clearances to put it back together for good water flow. The short article is concerned with adapting the Boss 302 cast curved impeller in place of pumps with straight paddle wheels, but the numbers are the same.

I am definitely going to try to do one. The immediate question is which pump to try it on.

I was thinking of using a new pump and I saw the Speedmaster is $48. That sounds like a good guinea pig to try it on since if I screw it up, it isn't a big loss?

It's tough to get any tech information of Speedmaster though before hand.

Is there anyone here with direct knowledge of it that can comment on this pump?

I agree that cutting down the nose is not a major issue. The way that the shaft is made though is going to need to be cut down in a lathe.

The exact amount to cut is also going to be experimental.

Will the cut down pump align to your crank pulley?

What’s your planned belt configuration?

Thanks.

Rocky

I won't know until I get into the nitty gritty.

I would presume that it does aligh since I have the belt on a special pulley that I had made for the water pump running now.

The intent is to cut the nose back to the point where the water pump pulley will be flat and still alighn with the crank pulley.

It does look like the dimensions work. I don't know what complications will happen within the water pump but theoretically, this works.

@marlinjack posted:

...I have just contacted Flowkooler.

I told them I purchased well over 640 of their Thermostats...and One High Flow Water pump.

I Requesting they consider a Group Purchase for a Custom Machined 351 Cleveland water pump that has a 1.5" Shorter Hub Height. I.E. Standard Height of 5.7" Lowered to 4.2"

The Pulley Is Available on-line, Larger Bore? I can Machine a pressed-in Sleeve.

Stay Tuned

The exact height necessary is yet to be determined. It should be about 1.5" lower and the thought would be to make the final/fine adjustment with a custom pulley. That seems the simplest solution.

I wouldn't order or suggest an order of 150  pumps until the details are determined but it would be interesting to see if they were interested at all?

In that respect, good move.

The entire point of cutting the pump nose 1.5" would be to eliminate the final two small tiers around the pulley snout.

I just got a Duracast pump today to begin messing with that but at the moment I am very involved with my wifes medical conditions and can't dedicate my complete interest to this.

There is absolutely no doubt that it is the pump projection that motivated the original Detomaso design team to come up with a unique design solution that was completely ridiculous. Total horseshit to say the least.

Exactly what kind of a petty pissing match that existed between Ford and Detomaso to allow this we will never know but to me seems like a mutual suicide pact?

@marlinjack posted:

...We say 1.5" is good starting point, to clear the Firewall?...would 2.0" be Better?

Before I ever 'Ordered', I would take the Final Measurements.

We Both know the Pulley is going to be a Single Sheeve. 'Near' Flat with a Negative Off-Set.

If this is going to go any further, I'll take care of it.

MJ

P.S. Sorry to hear of your Wifes Condition.

I think that this is significantly beneficial subject to the Pantera community that should be kept going if possible.

Ultimately it fixes a major issue with the Pantera and in a really simple and economical way potentially making the car much more enjoyable to use.

All of your cautions on assembling and disassembling are noted. If I break the pump it will just be another notch in the gun handle of theoretically making me smarter.

I think what I laid out is the way to go. Mine works as is now but could be improved with the pump modification. Everyone or anyones input can just help finalize the details.

Of course it will probably require cold blooded courage to test under extreme conditions like driving through Death Valley in the heat of the summer?  I have no idea who we can find who is freakin' crazy enough to do that? Do you?

Yea, "wifey" is really going though one heck of a bumpy ride. All we can do is hang on but we will make it through. Thanks for the thought.

I was reading all the above and I was wondering why converting a electric water pump didn’t come up yet… they can’t turn crazy fast either I would think because of cavitation… or just use it as is..

the motor already sits in the dry.. Maybe needs a bearing plate…  just thinking out loud…

look.. slimline…

Any pump that needs around 1-1/2" less total height will work.

The electric pump wasn't discussed I would presume because none of us in the discussion have experience with it (as of yet).

I have no objection to discussing it but have no intention of going in that direction.

I'm not sure if increasing the flow to that extreme is adviseable without inadvertantly overstressing the Pantera's cooling design is the right direction and might be complicating things expotentially unnecessarily?

But "pump away" as you like.

Hey Doug – thanks for your good work on this project.

I’ve got this instructional manual, and its companion, “How to Run a Mill”. Let me know if I should send it along!

😎

Is that the text you used in tech instruction?

There are several threads in the archives on electric water pumps, mostly questions. Very few were actually installed and street driven. They just don't move enough water.

One now-deceased owner in So-Cal chapter installed one of the best electric pumps of the day (the type used with engine dynomometers for 5-minute runs) and made it all the way to 'Vegas and back for a Fun Rally. But this was a stone-stock Pantera that was driven conservatively, mostly in 5th gear. He had to cut the access door frame to fit.

I asked about his water temp and he admitted that it was 'around' 230F on the gauge the entire trip, and he was an excellent mechanic. He did not attend the Track Event. Can you say "ragged edge?" IMHO there's no way a modified engine or one driven as they were intended would have survived.

For anyone contemplating the pump modification, Dead Nuts on, has the parts that you need and the installation tool for the seal and all of the parts you might need?

They have nice instructions on how to install the impeller and seal as well.

Here is the link. Scroll down to find all the information in sub-links.

https://www.deadnutson.com/bos...water-pump-impeller/

Using the Boss 302 impeller is probably the best idea for a rotor.

"Seak and ye shall find".

There is already existing a Ford billet water pump pulley to use with the "Ford Racing 'short' water pumps".

https://www.cvfracing.com/shor...656&gad_source=1

It is too early to determine if this is the exact pulley offset to use once the nose of the pump is cut back, but the preliminary analyzation seems to indicate that it is?

@ Marlin: look at the countersunk bolt holes! Kool or what?

...That looks perfect!! And Will Work! The same 3/4" pilot bore as the 351W Pump! I'm going to start Documenting the Adaptation of the 302, 351 Winsor Shorty WP. I just purchased, along with the 'Flatter' 'Shorty' Pulley...Doug has now found.

With My deepest respect to the work Doug has done. I will be moving my posts to 'PanterAAbsolute FLAT Firewall Documented and Photos', on this forum.

There...I will give my most recent measurements and show in photos, comparisons Between the Shorty Pump and the 'Flowcooler High-Flow' Pump, I have right in front of Me.

I am awaiting arrival for the pump and pulley.

For the pros and cons of adaptation of the two, and My Solutions for Success...I will see You on the New Site! And,

I'll see You on the 'Highway of Broken Dreams'

you can save a couple of bucks here.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/121263279239