You guys are a tough group! My notes say the Germans finished the last 52 cars, so working backwards from the last reported car (8MA1302 in New Zealand), the first German Mangusta would have been 8Ma 1136 so the TV car definitely would have been in that group.
Question: which bellhousing was earliest, the two-mount (alt & AC on opposite sides) or the single mount with both on the right?
Oh, everyone knows that answer... 
(just trying to be tough...all weekend long I've been humming Cars tunes). I had to look it up to make sure, but the parts manual lists/numbers all the 289 pieces before the 302---the engine, the bell housing, the jack shaft housing, even the air cleaner for the 289 is numbered first. I assume that that the smogged version of the j-code engine was at least a requirement in California and that Detomaso served all the US with (only) smog pumped motors--would be curious if the non-thermactor version of the heads was ordered for ROW that didn't the smog pumps.
I had to count on my fingers, but #361 would be 8ma1222...If at least, they counted the pusher car...! So maybe they mean 8ma1220, which is also Not on Provama ('1224 is known).
The homologation reference to 8ma1190 is what I think is interesting---Bossman, where did you get the data that 52 cars were built in Germany? At least, the snip that M!ke got from the show and the Silvestro document that Denis found both referencing 8ma1190 would suggest a landmark somehow...Even though there are so many cars found on Provamo, we're still missing a few critical links.
And oh, we aren't trying to be hard, I'm sure its not because we're even picky-- its just that watching a naked Mangusta get built back to something beautiful is so much fun we hate to be left out...! For Wayne's comments about so much research and getting it right by the factory, oh, I suppose compared to most "ground up" DeTomaso restorations, he is right. Its not like guys in the 60's with Ferrari had much of a chance to put on new valve covers, another intake, or rotate their carb....How many of us didn't dream of a Hall body kit on a Pantera and updated suspension, or at least vents in the hood, lathered in chrome---remember all the doo-dad's in the Hall catalog? But if they had come looking for this group, we could have at least saved them the trouble on the linkage for the backwards carb... 
I'm still just dying to drop a line on his facebook and tell him where to get stickers for the toggle switches..! Lee
OK students.....pay attention to those of you who didn't listen in math class...! The numbers previously posted don't add up!
1302 is last known car, minus 104 (= 2 x 52 "German" cars produced) = 1198 would be the first German car serial number. This mysterious 1190 number is close.... so maybe a new homologation doc was needed for the German production???? I have an original homologation report that Claudia gave me when I visited the factory but I cannot say if it was a first run or second run sort of doc. It shows nasty dirty 289 parts (Webers) like they were just removed and photos taken...I think it also shows the 10" rear rims for racing... but I'll need to dig it out and find any reference to numbers...... it's been a while since I looked at it! Others may have this doc also.....
Comment about engines: DeTomaso used whatever he could get from Ford. Keep in mind there were some labor issues at the Cleveland plant which resulted in 289's being installed in 69 Mustangs due to production hiccups....
While only a handful of cars (maybe first 20-25 cars) got the 289HIPO engine, the rest were conventional 302's. BUT, there are instances of our cars getting "baby poop yellow" industrial engines as well, as DeTomaso took whatever he could get..... be it from the US, or stocks in Europe. The regular production 302's also varied in that some were air injection (smog pumps) versions for manual trans cars in 68, where in 69-70 the smog provision was dropped (except for Boss 302 429 and 428CJ) and manual trans and auto trans engines used the same heads.
The engines were also likely shipped in batches to coincide with production needs. Many have surmised that engines were pulled from the Ford lines to supply DeTomaso......highly unlikely! IF Ford was having problems getting engines of their own make (302's) why would they short their production lines to support some tiny car maker in Europe????
(I have never seen any examples of a 289 engine being put in any cars past the first 20-25 cars......... Claims of.....but no physical documented evidence. Just like Wayne's blathering about this CCC car having a 289.....false! Prove me wrong, it's only an opinion at this time! )
DeTomaso either had to "order" engines from the parts division in the batches, or he had to take what was available. Like the industrial engines!
One example of a part which was possibly altered to support these "water pump" engines was the cast iron water pump pulley! The center hole in this pulley (I found on MY CAR!) is larger than the shaft size on most water pumps you can get today! An industrial pump had a larger shaft stub sticking out of it! SO when this pulley is used on a regular pump, you would have needed a spacer to keep the pulley aligned!
I found one of these spacers in an old water pump box that I had found somewhere....and when assembling the new 331 engine, I dug up this spacer and used it! I had always wondered why that center hole was larger than the water pump shaft stub.......
I REALLY wish that the gang would have put a set of stock valve covers with proper emblems on the car......just so wrong putting chrome covers on it when new emblems are available!
Mike commented about a rubber pad on the accelerator pedal?????? Never seen it! Even on the 6K mile original car in PA that I witnessed back in 97 98. Anyone else?????
He also mentioned the end of the turn signal stalk being black: This is a Lucas part borrowed from MG's of the day. Black could be a production variant OR, they forgot to send it out to the chrome shop (likely needed after sitting for so long!) so the shop just painted it black....... "who's gonna notice?!"
Did all the later cars, German included, get the junk tray? I've seen console posts here that have slightly different designs......with no tray....
Great discussion!!!!!!
Ciao!
Steve
I thought the same thing, they didn’t search tooo terribly hard for info in that car.
i did think it came out quite nice though. Wish I had been at the boston cup to see it
Steve, ditto on no-rubber on the gas pedal. And yes, the Cars' car had the right turn signal switch, but yes had painted over the end cap on the horn switch: The difference between the MGB (Lucas 35874) and the Maserati/Goose (35874A) was the round end plastic vs. squared off horn knob. Repros for the metal end cap are available, but they won't work on a Goose. The long tapered cone on the Maserati/Goose horn button is something I haven't found on any other car...lord knows I've looked!
Records on the engine supply are in the hands of Vito now...His last words were that some engines were bought from Iso Rivolta. Looking forward someday to his book...I am much more interested in the storyline of the Goose than I am the particulars of my own car! Since the day I was looking for key build info and wanted to know where the engine fans came from, only to see it in Italian script specified as "white and yellow.." https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...for-phillippe?page=2
The PMI repro valve cover emblems are pretty darn good, so good that even real takeoffs from Mangustas sit unpurchased on Ebay....Repro valve covers are cheap too, already painted, no dents, of course without the throttle spring tab. So unfortunate, now the car has a Ford engine, not one of those rare DeTomaso engines .
I am curious if the heater valves (the Alfa Giulia valves on left/right of the engine bay) were not installed on later cars...? Hard to see them in Denis' car there as well...Lee
Drivers' side view from 1046 attached;
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
First from what I have read DeTomaso may have not built the cars in order. Pushing a body aside waiting for a part or a customer payment. Second the German were euro or RHD cars had some unique features like the roof antenna , the side e-brake. The two arm bel housings were for the US smog cars. Motors from the days I was at FoMoCo would have been ordered by thru a Canadian assembly plant handled by Parts Département Shipped from Windsor plant to the customer. As Steve has posted pics higher some of the valve covers were silver for some strange reason. Also the water pump pulley was not a Ford part it is a billet piece and you note has sharp edges. Roland has said they would get 5-6 cars at a time and many cars were incomplete when received.
Also Lee my car does not have or appear to ever have had heater valves. Another note the late model heater as in Wayne’s car has a lever by the driver’s knee. It should be black plastic not chromed.
Lee, that info mentioning 52 cars routed to a German shop came from a Euro magazine article sent to me by Roland Jaeckel many years ago. I used it in a POCA newsletter article at the time. The deal was to finish off all the remaining partially- completed Mangustas in Modena and Allessandro would then gift the shop with the German DeTomaso franchise. The shop (owned by Armin Fischer in Stuttgart) took the cars in batches of 5-10 at a time and completed, then sold them. A reproduced sales ad was included. DeTomaso SpA was very, very busy starting up Pantera production for Europe & fighting with Ford-Europe and ZF at the time.
The article mentioned the shop used brand new Mercedes e-brake handles, prompting threats from M-B Spare Parts officials when they found out. More notes mention the last batch of 6 cars- #1292 to #1302- were all built as right-hand-steer cars for England, Australia, N. Zealand and Japan. No info on others but there surely were a few right-handers done earlier in Italy.
Guys, this is so interesting...and yeah, I think no better source than Jaeckel! So I'm curious, after the transfer to Germany, are we certain that all the production in Modena stopped? Just theorizing that 8ma1190 was the first made in Germany and later used as the homologation sample, while a few were still were getting finished still in Modena.
Geez, the thought of moving all the pieces (or worse, some of the pieces!) to complete in another country is really spectacular...Bossman, do you remember which POCA (or, what the original Euro magazine source) were? Lee
Lee, the article was in the POCA Newsletter for Feb of 2010, titled "The Mangusta and the German Connection". It took me quite a while to find it because, although all but 2 issues of every Newsletter ever written (Sept '73 to May 2020) are now reproduced on the POCA Website, there is no index (yet) for the more than 750 tech articles. They are all in pdf file format and downloads are free if you're a POCA member.
In re-reading the article for the 1st time in over 10 years, I note that there were 55 Mangustas, not 52- that were reworked in Germany! So much for depending on one's memory for obscure details...
Oh, what a perfect fit! So 8ma1190 was the last built in Modena, another 55 cars in Germany, and 8ma1196 (Bordinat) somewhere else....brilliant !
And those 55 cars were built and sold in 3 months--incredible...heroic or crazy, must have been both...Thanks Jack ! Lee
ps. and thanks, Denis, I saw that silver bat thereby the parking brake and just dismissed it, wouldn't have guessed that was the heater valve...and not like there is a cowl flap.
@mkeh posted:You got me on the regulator... I didn't see the green tape and cried foul too soon...
A shot of the original documents shown 8 mins into the video.
Rotated 180 and zoomed in: (red line is by me)
Looks like 8MA-1190 to me
At 8:23 he says it's car #361... so... 361 x 2 = 722 722 + 500 = 1222
1222 is not in the registry... but 361 could've been something completely irrelevant I've only seen references to the digits of the VIN on the insides of door panels and such with mine...
I'm gonna go with 8MA-1190 since that appears to be what's on the paper.
Here's the Headliner and Visors:
On the dash, I was referring to the top of the dash, not the face of it... shouldn't the top be of mouse fur? This is clearly NOT mouse fur:
Here is the Frunk underside:
The best shot I could find of the rearview mirror:
Also noticed the horn nubbin is black instead of chrome and the rubber is missing from the gas pedal:
Perhaps the (Spare Tire?) dimple in the Frunk could help narrow down it's # if it's NOT 1190:
That's all I got...
MH
Hello mkeh
In your pictures I noticed that there is no frame in your sky. Here is a picture, a sky frame on the roof. I'm looking for the part, that's why I noticed it.
Greetings Mungolino
Mungolino, you are correct, one of the modifications to this car was the headliner (same as the sunvisors). The headliner should be leather, light cream color ('matching' the sunvisors) and smooth texture. Some cars did seem to have pleats. The leather is glued to the roof with a thin padding.
The interior trim frame that covers the seam between the leather headliner and the roof sheet metal is made of aluminum and covered in leather.
-Leather is applied across all the interior A pillars, and 360' along the windshield , side windows, and rear glass bow.
- the aluminum frame is also covered in leather. See detail of the back of the joint.
Interior leather used except for the headliner and dash top is natural texture, top grain without any artificial tooling (not "pebbled"). As I remember, the headliner is a smoother texture. Sunvisors are "basket weave" vinyl.
Sorry I didn't measure the frame (maybe someone else has their frame available to measure the frame)--Lee
I'm amazed at the low rate of survival for original Mangusta headliners and related trim pieces - - maybe shriveled when subjected to US summer heat??! The only oem headliner bit on my car was the trim frame, here are a few photos with dimensions noted. All four sides are bowed to fit the roof structure. The front section (which has a generous bow) was welded-in slightly 'twisted' so that the finished frame bulges to the front in the middle. Hopefully pics are better than words here.
Strange thing about 1010's frame was that the leather was definitely tan but spray-dyed black. Both leather & workmanship sure LOOK original. I had thought frames were 'normally' black from the factory. So either that's not true OR ....spray dye might have been a quick 'problem solver' at carrozzeria Ghia?
Lee, glad you mentioned leather being used for the surrounding roof area trim. 1010 was covered in vinyl by the time I took ownership...wasn't sure that was incorrect until I saw your comments and I tried to think about things logically
Nate, I'll have to admit, when I gave my 2 cents on this and typed "maybe someone else could measure their frame" I was thinking especially about you Someday someone is going to make a library with your notes and make a car...Lee
Wow.....if ever there was a time when I wish I had taken more pictures.....!!! For some reason.....my headliner frame was in beautiful condition. While maroon red, I don't believe it was the original red......4th owner says that he had it resprayed to more of a maroon tint, that the red was TOO red........ Headliner was heading for the floor....... the material parting from any foam backing that was on it originally......
I thought that the headliner was originally a perforated material similar to what Panteras use...... I couldn't find it at the time, so went with a more modern synthetic material....padded....
It's replacement was one of the first things that I did to my car when I was trying to get it on the road. My neighbor was an upholsterer of car interiors and had some maroon material that I used. Tricky getting two glue laden surfaces to fit together properly the first time......cuz the second time isn't usually happening!!
I bought a pair of visors at the factory, and I believe them to be Fiat/Alfa parts..... the hinge pieces are definitely the same pieces....... The Goose used an odd shape that was symmetrical L-R. I think mine were white-ish vinyl with same color plastic hinges. Pantera visors are the same, but since they came later, ya can't call them Pantera parts when sourcing them!
I can't say that I've seen this visor in the normal Fiats/Alfas found in the junkyards......that perhaps they came from an odd sedan or such...... The fact that they do not have the typical offset for the rear view mirror, and are fixed (no side pivot), seems to say something........ boring?
Would need to run one of them down to a local Italian car wrecker and see what they can tell us!
Sorry to bend this discussion to visors.......
It is sad that these fairly fragile interior pieces seem to come up in such poor condition after being set aside for decades......!!! Always bag your parts carefully before storing for decades........
How about those teeny tiny Phillips screws used to hold that trim in place????!!!
Cheers!
...I can think of 3 things that I haven't matched to other cars--the dash defroster vents, the rear view mirror, and the sunvisors (!) "closest" I've seen to the sunvisors are Lancia Fulvia, but the length is a bit shorter between the ears and the vinyl 'basketweave' texture also seems unique. The basketweave vinyl may be the same used on Alfa Giulia (both sunvisors and headliner).
A pic of 8ma1074, oh the benefit of being stuck in a dry cool garage in Emeryville CA for 35 years...my 8ma1076 shows why most headliners fall--the foam just lets go as it turns to dust... But you can just see the basketweave on the sunvisor, and of course the crazy natural texture of the leather on the A pillars...Lee
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
Link to F40 Motorsport : 1969 De Tomaso Mangusta - F40 Motorsports in Portland, CT - 1036900
OK, I'll bite? Why two 1190's? There's a spare one?
Did anyone else notice what appears to be an oil filter mounted up ahead of the water tank? I cannot imagine the mess that an oil change would create!!! (with all that is down lower in that area......headers, heat shields, suspension parts, chassis works.......)
Way back up at the top, mkeh questioned the lack of a rubber cover on the accelerator pedal.....I can't say I've ever seen such a thing......anyone else?
And the end of the blinker switch is black.... I would guess that the button rusted and this was a quick fix....... I don't think they were chromed, but rather polished and treated somehow to look shiny?
Cheers!
Steve, my comment on 1190 is that the number has showed up in random other documentation (see Dennis' post), and so I think represents a reference point (yeah, I know, this is one of the cars on the grassy knoll...). You can google 8ma1190 to see other documentation that references that exact number--car--and (with the last 55 build in Germany), the math just may work out. This is why I guess that 1190 marked the legal transition from Italy to Germany...somehow. And wonder if the number here is pulled off 'documentation' or the chassis. Would be really cool to finger what may have been a pivotal car in the sequence. Would love to hear from someone who can look at the chassis.
I also noticed that the solenoid is a proper Lucas 4ST now...so maybe someone read our scathing compliments. I can't make out what is there to the front of the FIMM tank...But now I look at a new picture, hmm, those don't look like Copper rivets on the engine covers.... (and am I stretching my memory on this one, but I thought DeTomaso did use copper when bonding steel and aluminum together....to avoid galvanic corrosion...even if they look better unpainted here)...
Oh, are we an ornery bunch... Lee
