McLeod Clutch Disc Problems

Now once again, the replaced McLeod clutch disc, with maybe 3,000 miles on it, here we go again. 2 disc with the same problem in less than 8,000 miles.

Look at the picture and where the arrow is pointing, I know, hard to see. But if you look closely, you'll see the top spring has become dis-lodged and is now pointing up instead of across.

I had the same problem with my clutch disc. It happened about a month after I bought the car from a the gentlemans estate so I have no idea what was in the car. It looks alot like the picture though. For what it is worth, I have never seen a disc fail like that before. And no, I was not beating on the clutch!

Just talked to Red at McLeod.

He seems to think there is an alinement problem with the bell housing mating surfaces or the pilot bearing is out of round causing the inpute shaft to wobble, or the impute shaft is bent causing the disc to spin out of round. (Which I know the last one is not the case)

All things considered, IT SUCKS.

For what it is worth... I would think that out of round bearings or a bent input shaft would produce a vibration of some kind especailly if it is bad enough to throw the spring. I don't recall a vibration before the spring came out but I sure had one after it came out. My theory was old age either on the part of the spring or the disc itself???

That's what I think too. Got a new Dual Friction coming. Going to change it out and check things over before putting it all back together, again......
Dammm......

Good Luck!
I would like to know if you run across anything unusual.

Change the pilot bushing.
I don't use Mcleod. They are gar-baggia, i.e., expensive junk.
I never lost a spring but I sure have fractured them.

The Dual Friction, while not a perfect entity by any means is a better unit. The Centerforce people will give you alot of aditude too.
I suspect that it is very likely that you will like it. The clutch, not the aditude.

It has a nice light feel and holds very well.
Like I said before, I think the 10.5 holds better then the 11.
I know it isn't logical but that is what I find.

This is the last McLeod I'm going to try. It's their Dual Friction clutch disc. If I have any problems with this one, I will change everything over to Centerforce and never use McLeod again. They didn't even offer to replace it, had to BUY another one at 145.00.

Getting very old...very fast....

Have a Bronze pilot bushing, will check it over very carefully for any signs of uneven wear.

I do not claim to be an expert on Panteras but I will tell you this - if Red Roberts at McLeod Industries told you to check some things - alignment etc it would be wise to do it before you trash his product in a semi public forum. There are few individuals in this world, if any, who know more about the clutch business than Red.

I have worked with him through issues on various performance cars for the past 35 years from the other side of the world, on projects for Ford Australia, General Motors and a wide range of winning vehicles from all forms of motor sport and seldom has he been wrong and even if he is, he will always ensure that the issue is corrected and rectified to the customers satisfaction.

You really need to check the alignment of your bellhousing and in particular the indexing, what you describe is almost certainly an alignment issue of some sort. Try the index of the centerline to start with - and "NO" it will not always cause major vibration until the springs dislodge.

You might also check to see why your disc appears (in the photograph) to be rusty.

The gentleman who described the Mcleod product as garbaggia (sic) needs to spend more time on his spelling and typing skills and less on trashing manufacturers who go a long way to assist which is way more than you will get at any of the other clutch manufacturers (centerforce included)

Sometimes it pays to listen and spend less time talking - I learnt the hard way years ago !

Hey MagicMick, you seem to be an educated person.
Do you know how much 2q+2q=?

quote:

Originally posted by Magic Mick:
...Sometimes it pays to listen and spend less time talking...

Mike, you're certainly within your rights to defend McLeod products and relate your experience with Mr Roberts. On the same note however, Coz & Doug are within their rights to express their opinions too, without attacks on their persons.

Your positive comments regarding McLeod & Mr Roberts should have been made without the condescending comments aimed at other members of this community.

You'll find no matter what product, business or businessman you wish to discuss, there shall be people who have had both bad and good experiences.

George

Sir

I agree entirely with your suggestions and I will work within the guidelines in the future - my sincere personal apologies to you and to your members - I assume you will give the same space to the said gentlemen when he finds that his issue was not related to the said manufacturer but to his own inability to "dial in" and to "index" a bellhousing

I have said enough - I will let Mr Roberts' industry reputation and years of service to the various industry bodies (SFI & SEMA) to name but two (he was recently admitted to the SEMA Hall Of Fame I believe) stand.

There are many positives in the clutch industry Mcleod, Centerforce and Hays to name three. nine times out of ten consumer issues are developed by their own making - thus the case in point.

Coz, keep us posted on how you check the alignment of your bell housing. I wasn't aware that one could be off by enough to cause a problem. As you know, I re-installed my ZF after a rebuild. I'd sure like to know how to check if I have it right.
Thanks, Mooso.

Magic Mick, I don't mind showing my ignorance. When you say "indexing the centerline", are there marks cast into the block and bell housing that are supposed to be aligned? As stated above, I installed my ZF without this knowledge and would sure like to check it.
Thanks, Mooso.

Mooso

It is relativly simple but a very very important thing to do when you are installing bellhousings, clutches etc.

Engine Out Of Car

Tilt engine on end, establishing centerline of crank by bolting an old input shaft to to the crank via the crank bolts. Bolt bellhousing to block and use a dial indicator attached to the other end of the input shaft (usually by magnet base) rotate dial indicator around the inner edge of the bellhousing where the input shaft passes through the bellhousing - the 'runout should be no more than say 5 thou preferably less.
It is a little more difficult with the engine in the car but the same basic principals apply

The less runout the better

You can buy offset dowell pins to make up the difference.

This is a bit basic but hope it helps you!

Mick, thanks. I understand the procedure. Geez, I wish I would have known about this when I installed the ZF. I haven't had a problem, but if it ever comes out again, you can bet I'll align it before it goes back in. Good info.
Mooso.

hey man

Happy to assist

I just hate seeing good industry people and sound manufacturers being trashed without any knoweledge or defense

Can you imagine how this sort of stuff can impact a mans business - simply because of a lack of understanding of sound engineering principals - I am not being critical just stating the obvious !

Hope I was able to assist you

Happy Holidays from downunder

I had a similiar issue years back and it was a pilot bushing issue ... and another time the input shaft wasnt going all the way into the bushing ... make sure the new bushing fits over the input shaft nose and make sure you dont tap it to far into the crank ... measure the distance the input nose into the bellhousing and the distance the pilot bushing is past the block face .. a little difficult to describe here ...



Ron

Well, excuse me....

But in defense of Red, he's a great guy and always been there when I needed him. Just pretty fustrated right now with this. However, if I decide to NOT use McLeod products, that's my choice, not anyone eles's.

Going to check the things Red and I discussed today including the within 0.003" parallel, the mating surfaces of the bell housing to the motor and the bell housing to the ZF and the pilot bearing. 0.003 ? If this is the max tolerance that this disc can handle, it's not the disc I want in my car. That's a piece cellophane in thickness. How rediculious.

We'll see what I find. If I can find it, maybe the expert Magic dick can find it for me. God knows I have no clue what I'm doing.

But one thing for sure, if this nut case thinks I'm going to pull my motor to install a bell housing or clutch disc, he's nuttery than a fruit cake. I have replaced 5 or 6 clutches in other Pantera's with Centerforce stuff and have never seen this problem that I'm having with the McLeod disc. Like I said, I am going to try 1 more McLeod disc after checking the various area's, if it happens again after this, McLeod stuff goes in the trash. My choice, not anyone else's.

Sir

Not one word was written about being an expert (in point of fact I opened my comments by saying that, if you care to read again) but when I see a very good associate of many years standing business name getting trashed,without giving him a chance to defend or even make a token suggestion, I will always stand up and speak regardless of weather it is a Panterra or a wheelbarrow!. It is of little interest to me if you believe you need to be excused or not sir.

For the record anything within 8 thou will get you in the ball park but 5 or less is best.

If the Our Lord knows you have no clue then how do you expect Red Roberts to assist, particulary after you have trashed him and his outstanding business name all over the internet.

For the record Magic Mick a business name here in Australia for a 40 year old engineering company that services many Panteras without claiming to be anything more than a sound business with a very proud record in motorsports (including many successes with Panteras!)

Good luck with your problem and I am really looking forward to seeing you step up like a man on this Forum and acknoweledge that it was not the fault of the product you purchased or the manufacturer.

MAGIC MICK!

Magic Mick is what we call a troll. A troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, insulting, or otherwise inappropriate messages.

MM joined our community, and began making inflammatory comments on the intelligence and character of long term members whom he knows nothing about, with his very first post, his first day as a member! This is not normal behavior. He says he's defending a fine auto industry gentleman, but in so doing, he's writing derogatory comments about other fine gentlemen, the very thing he says he hates seeing happen. I warned him privately earlier today, and yet he continues to take jabs at Coz and Doug. He appologized to me in an earlier post, and with his next sentence took another jab at Coz.

His zealousness to defend Mr Roberts makes me wonder if MM IS actually Mr Roberts, or an associate.

MM had his one chance, and now I'm blocking his IP.

cowboy from hell

Right, just like the first disc that cracked at the spring holding tabs which caused the spring to dis-lodge. McLeod admitted this was a problem with the first disc, their fault and replaced it without charge. That's great, but they didn't have to take 2 days pulling the ZF and putting back in.

I did.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magic Mick:
Good luck with your problem and I am really looking forward to seeing you step up like a man on this Forum and acknoweledge that it was not the fault of the product you purchased or the manufacturer.

Now hold on George. Don't be rash.....

After talking to Red today on what needs to be done, and reading through the Tragic Dicks posts.

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to pull the ZF, then pull the motor. Then stand the motor on end sitting on my driveway and attach the ZF to the bell housing and then bell housing to the motor. Then I'm going to check alignment & clearance while my wife holds everything from falling over.

Then according to Red, I'm going to measure the parallel area's between the ZF to the bell housing and the bell housing to the motor. If I have more than that 0.003, then I need to take everything to a machine shop and have the ZF machined on the side that meets the bellhousing, the Bell housing machined on the side that meets motor block and the block that meets the bell housing to make sure I have no more than 0.003.

I was told that once this is done, then I shouldn't have anymore problems with the clutch disc losing it's springs or falling a part.

Right, I'm getting right on that first thing in the morning.


Of course then the only problem I'll have is paying the thousands of dollars this is going to cost to have done.

But hey, what's a few thousand dollars to make sure a 145.00 clutch disc works without falling apart.

LOL....what a joke. If I took this advice, I'd be a TRAGIC DICK. Can you imagine doing this just to replace a clutch disc ?

After what I've learned today and been told by McLeod, the only clutch I'm going to dump at 6000 RPM is the McLeod in the trash can.

Anybody want to buy a McLeod Aluminum flywheel, pressure plate & clutch disc ? Will give a discount on the disc since it's missing a spring.


QUOTE]Originally posted by george pence:
MM had his one chance, and now I'm blocking his IP.

quote:

Originally posted by Coz:
...If I took this advice, I'd be a TRAGIC DICK...

.....Tragic, you crack me up.......

All this hostility . . . I need a hug!

Buy my McLeod stuff and I'll give you a hug.

quote:

Originally posted by 4NFORD:
All this hostility . . . I need a hug!

LOL...

more ...

No George, but my wife is going to work on it first thing in the morning....she just doesn't know it yet...

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
more ...

George,

You are an artistic riot!

Hey TragicDick, riva-durchy baby ..!.

I got out a feeler guage. .005 does seem pretty slim doesn't it? I would imagine to Champ Car, NASCAR, and LeMans Series guys, this kind of careful set-up is an every day thing, but I have to agree with Coz...I've seen a lot of clutches replaced (done a few myself) and I've never had any real problems putting things back the way they came off. This level of perfection should not be necessary. MM's recommendation seems like high-end performance engineering, not enthusiast-level upgrading.

I did want to try and understand just what MM was requiring, though. If the McLeod folks are echoing this setup procedure for a clutch plate to hold together, their stuff is too Space Shuttle for me.
Interesting discussion!
Mooso

Michael,

The stock Ford clutch doesn't fail, even though it is installed in a less than perfectly aligned application. A $145 clutch disc is not a space shuttle part, its the kind of part sold to 18 to 21 year old young gear heads, day in and day out, all around the world. These young gear heads are not mechanical geniuses, they have the bare minimum of tools. The clutch should be able to be slapped into a Chevell or Mustang and with stand the abuse of a Saturday night of burn-outs and stop-light drags.

McLeod has good reputation. Something is wrong here. Less than 2 years ago Coz had the same problem, Mr Roberts replaced the disc for free, and even admitted it must be a problem with his part. Now Coz has to pay for the disc, and its his ignorance causing the failure?

Jim & I discussed this briefly. It sounds to me that manufacture of the parts has shifted "off-shore" and the company is having a problem with quality control, may even be in financial distress. This would explain the shift in customer service.

The close tolerance does not indicate to me the part is too high tech, it indicates to me it is not built as well as it used to be, too fragile.

The Cleveland engine was built 30 years ago, the precision of its manufacture was not to modern standards, Mr Roberts knows this, so the whole 0.003" clearance thing is just puzzling.

cowboy from hell

Yeah, that all makes sense to me. I really gave the whole trans/bell/block alignment thing some thought last night. I tried to figure out just how a guy like me could measure these differences in his garage. That's when I got out the feeler guage. I came to the conclusion that there was no way it was that critical. Not .003-.005 critical in a street car. Not possible.
I was being sarcastic about the Space Shuttle comment. If the McLeod folks are really using those kind of tolerances as an excuse, I'll avoid their products. It just sounds like tap-dancing to me.
I have a "Weber" branded clutch in my car. Anybody know if this is a re-branded clutch actually made by (dare I say) McLeod? I hope not.
Thanks George. Thanks Y'all.
Mooso

I agree with George that this guy was a troll. With the internet, info travels so quickly people resort to this tactic.
If he was being truthful, he reall did quite a disservice to Mcleod.
George, did you happen to look up the IP address to see where he came from? That would answer if it were *likely* someone associated with McLeod. Not that it matters much.

George .. you hit it on the head ... Mcloed like very other company in the US is shifting from Quality to Quantity. That disc failed and its due to a poorly made product.

Crockodile Mic is in Australia he's in fairly land thinking you need precision instruments to install a clutch.

I have to say one thing about clutches. I have a fleet of Ford's in my Mechanical Co. all the standard shift vehicles all have NEW FORD CLUTCHES in them ... not an aftermarket product. Thru my experience nothing is made like the GENUINE FORD PRODUCT my drivers eat up the aftermarket clutches.

The vibration Coz was feeling was the springs missing.

COZ dont put that product back in the car .. you'll be taking it apart again. Just check the pilot bushing / bearing .. the bearing has a stop on it so it can only go in so far.


Ron

The ONLY engine that I rember being "sensative" to +/- centering alighnment was the 427 Ford with the 11-1/2" disc.
I remeber an offset bushing kit for the scattershields.
I don't remeber the importance of it. Perhaps ACCobra does.
I don't think that the Cleveland ever had a bad reputation for it.
I can't stand these manufacturers reps who drop this "you screwed up the installation" crap on everybody to cover up the fact that thier product is shit.
Sorry for my frankness but I'm not taking thier crap anymore. They can stick thier schtick.
Centerforce is no Angel either. I had a running with them too.
As a matter of fact it is pretty difficult to find a high quality aftermarket clutch.
The Ford clutches tend to be the better ones available.

Doug,

It dont ring a bell with the 427 .. I mostly ran 428cj's with TCI automatics .. sorry I know a pussy combo.

I experience this manufacturers BS every day. We install Air Conditioning equipment and or Pumps .. the pieces of S@#$ dont work from the second we start them .. and it a installation problem. We cant get paid for all the labor it cost nursing this GARBAGGGGE.

Take it from me ... go to FORD and buy a NEW SET UP ... it took me 25 years to learn this. Every chance I get I buy SVO or FORD.

I had a manufacturer try to sell me rockers that
were labelled BBC / 351C I told him send them i'll try them then pay he said no way .. i said why you dont trust me .. i said NO i dont trust you because they are not them same.

I hate people that are only in it for the $$$.

if Mcloed's reputation was so important ... he would send COZ a whole new set up ... whats the sales of the co. can be worth 500.00

Ron

It's not a pussie combo at all. It is an intelligent set up.
In fact in my opion, it's a better engine then the 427 AnythingRiser.

The best explanation I ever got of a clutch is that it is a device that was designed to hold 30 or 40 horespower. What do expect from it with 500?