Mind Train Exhaust Availability

Mind Train has been out of business for many years now…  you might be able to find someone’s used set, but I haven’t seen any advertised in a long time…

I’ve read articles about people opening up their stock Ansas and modifying the flow path. I have not done this.  I thought the goal was to try and cut down on the 2000-2500 RPM exhaust drone (sound).

My IMPRESSION and recollection is that it was a good bit of work, but didn’t really satisfy those few who did it.  I may be wrong about the results.  If my memory is faulty, I hope someone with actual experience can correct me…

Rocky

Dear Chuck,

            Based on Gerry Romack's report of success with his muffler mods and second hand reports from two or three other owners with similar success, I tried my hand at muffler surgery to stop the notorious drone from about 2000 to 2400 rpm.

           I have the GTS mufflers.  The process is pretty well illustrated in Gerry's tech article on the Great Lakes Panteras' website and I followed it.  I may have been too compulsive and I found it slow and tedious to cut apart the internal components.  It is do-able.  I re-built the internal parts arrangement per Gerry, welded it up and re-installed them.

          Despite Gerry's reported success and my high hopes, I found only mild to moderate success.  The drone remains and seems a bit muted.  Overall, outside of the drone range, the general exhaust noise seems reduced.  I would not call it a major success.

          I believe there may be another article about GTS muffler mods on the Space City Panteras website written years ago by David Bell. 

                  Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

I had Mind Train on my previous 72. A fantastic sound. My favorite. I read somewhere years ago that the mufflers where actually "Cherry Bombs" a brand from the 60-70s available at any speed shop.

Mike Daily at the Pantera Place did this mod on his car.

ANSA Mufflers (panteraplace.com)

Been looking at Utube Videos about people adding a pipe just before the Muffler called 1/4 Wave Helmholtz Resonator. Not sure something like this might help the drone with Our Pantera's or even fit? There seems to be a Formula for the Length of the pipe? I'm sure someone Sharper then I could figure this out, maybe Gerry?

I have a reproduction set of the Mind Train exhaust system. The mufflers are basically straight through glass packs and the pipes from the headers to the mufflers, I believe are a bit over two inches in diameter. When I first installed the headers and mufflers, the sound of the engine had a bit of a crackling sound. As soon as I installed the exhaust cross over pipe, the crackling sound went away!

@cuvee posted:

Been looking at Utube Videos about people adding a pipe just before the Muffler called 1/4 Wave Resonator. Not sure something like this might help the drone with Our Pantera's or even fit? There seems to be a Formula for the Length of the pipe? I'm sure someone Sharper then I could figure this out, maybe Gerry?

I have the crossover pipe on my exhaust system, which fits just under the transaxle. The crossover pipe did make the entire system sound better, but there is a catch to having it where it is which is really the only place to install it. I noticed that my air conditioning system never worked as well as it did before I installed the exhaust crossover. The way the condenser is mounted on a Pantera and how the fan operates, it basically recirculates air around the exhaust crossover pipe.  I have since relocated the air conditioning condenser to the front of the radiator, which made the system work like a normal vehicle's.

is the reproduction set still available ?

@uli posted:

is the reproduction set still available ?

I am not sure if it is still available. I think Pantera International might still have them. I bought mine way back around 2001. The entire system is ceramic coated and it is loud!

Got one :-) not yet installed, will let you know the differences,

cheers, Uli

When you install that Mind Train Exhaust, you might notice a crackling sound that wasn't there before. My engine had it after I installed the Mind Train system, but the installation of the crossover pipe took care of the problem.

ALL v-8s should have a balance tube.

For one thing, the camshaft timing is designed to take advantage of exhaust scavenging. You can't get that unless both sides are tied together, i.e., balance tube.

Separating the exhausts one side from the other is going to make the idle rougher.

You can hear the rough idle, even on a mild cam, on cars like Cobras and Corvettes with side pipes.

You are giving away torque with that setup. How much? You would need to do an extensive dyno test to find out. I'd take a guess and say in the 30 to 40 lb-ft vicinity.

@panteradoug posted:

ALL v-8s should have a balance tube.

For one thing, the camshaft timing is designed to take advantage of exhaust scavenging. You can't get that unless both sides are tied together, i.e., balance tube.

Separating the exhausts one side from the other is going to make the idle rougher.

You can hear the rough idle, even on a mild cam, on cars like Cobras and Corvettes with side pipes.

You are giving away torque with that setup. How much? You would need to do an extensive dyno test to find out. I'd take a guess and say in the 30 to 40 lb-ft vicinity.

I am going to agree with you on the crossover pipe picking up torque. I don't have any chassis dyno numbers for my car before and after the crossover tube installation, but the seat of my pants told me that there was more available power after the installation.  The only problem with installing a crossover tube on a Pantera's exhaust system is that there is only one place to install it and that does cause more heat to be pulled into the air conditioning condenser. Of course, as soon as you move the condenser to the front of the radiator, that exhaust crossover heat problem goes away.

@jffr,

Can you upload a picture of your crossover pipe? I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to see how it was done.

Steve

@tsolo posted:

@jffr,

Can you upload a picture of your crossover pipe? I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to see how it was done.

Steve

I will get a good picture of the crossover set up when I get the exhaust system put back on the car. Hopefully that will be today!

I believe this is a Mind Train muffler system with the cross-over.  Old pic from long ago.  Performance be dammed, I would not want that thing sitting underneath my ZF for many reasons.

Mid engine cars often have difficulty in arriving at a "cosmetically acceptable" appearance in their design.

I went with 180 headers that solve that issue. Admittedly they are just a bit on the loud side but in a Pantera the cockpit is quiet since the sound is behind you.

@panterapatt posted:

I believe this is a Mind Train muffler system with the cross-over.  Old pic from long ago.  Performance be dammed, I would not want that thing sitting underneath my ZF for many reasons.

As I have said several times before, the air conditioning system will not work as well because you are recirculating hot air from around the crossover pipe. I know this because that is what happened to my system after installing the pipe. That problem was later taken care of by moving the air conditioning condenser to the front of the car. I never noticed any problem with the ZF after installing the crossover.

That photo of the white pre-L Pantera above once belonged to Roger Sharp of CA. He built his own headers and that rear balance 'pipe' is actually a 3rd glass-pak muffler, in a vain attempt to quiet the beast! Mind-Train went out of business in the mid-'70s; the owner was a racing and Bonneville fan, and actually started P.I. They featured 2-1/2" exhaust pipes from the headers back and were loud!

I have a set on my L. Over time I lost one tip resonator on each side, so she is a bit loud. But at least it's even

Here is a look inside. You'll see the resonator in the tip (left) has an outlet diameter of just about 1-1/2", the muffler outlet into the tip is just about 1-3/4". The pipe from the collector through the split to the mufflers is 2-1/2".

The area of the 2-1/2" pipe works out to 4.9 sq in, pushed through the mufflers at a net 4.27 sq in, and then pushed out through the tip resonators at a net of 3.52 sq in.

Have installed the mind train but used the existing manilfold and not the manifold which was sent with the mindtrain mufflers with a smaller pipe diameter. I was told that by reducing the exhaust  back pressure the engine power shrink. the mindtrain mufflers are causing less back pressure and therefore the manifold would need to have a smaller diameter. is that right ?

There have been anecdotes that say “backpressure” helps generate more torque…. but I don’t believe it.

A free-flow through the system helps pull in the intake charge.  

I’m sure someone like Dan Jones has data…. my comments are also anecdotal.

Rocky

My Mind Train headers (photo above) have the 1-3/4" primary pipes. I like them because the design doesn't come so close to the gas tank heat shield.

I use a set of the stainless steel Stinger exhaust port plates on my 4V Cleveland heads. Raises and flattens the port floor where the gas velocity is low.

The resulting port size matches pretty well to the primary pipe of the headers. I did die grind away some weld boogers to smooth things up.

I have no solid numbers, but it sure seems healthier than with the prior set of Hall headers necked down to 1-5/8" at the collector donut.

@rocky posted:

There have been anecdotes that say “backpressure” helps generate more torque…. but I don’t believe it .…. my comments are also anecdotal.

If you have the Mind Train headers, those are the headers I would use with the Mind Train tail pipes. I would eliminate restrictions and pinch points. Back pressure is bad. Very very bad. The back pressure inherent in any exhaust system, especially one with mufflers, is more than enough. There's no reason for anyone to go out of their way to create more.

Did you know the original headers sold by Mind Train to accompany their tail pipes were designed by Cragar the chrome wheel company? Cragar sold them independently before Mind Train started using them. They were (and still are) good headers.

Muffler design is a compromise between size, sound level, longevity, and back pressure. Magnaflow mufflers have an excellent reputation for high output and reasonable sound level, even in smaller sizes; but they have poor longevity. They use a fibrous packing material to achieve their sound level performance and that packing material loses its efficiency as it fills with carbon and unburned oil and gasoline particles (dirt bikers call this stuff “splooge”). This is true for any muffler that uses a fibrous packing material to deaden sound, like the Mind Train exhaust system. Other mufflers which use baffles to reduce sound level are often louder and/or impact an engine’s output to a greater degree. Mufflers which are both quiet and have good longevity will impact an engine’s output the most, unless they are very large. That describes the GTS exhaust. We don't have the option of "large mufflers" with Panteras.

-G

I had an idea for a Mind Train style exhaust, using a double muffler setup from FK Automotive and then I had my buddy weld on 3" pipes cut at a 35 degree angle. They turned out great and the sound is hard to beat (also because of the new rather high comp 393C stroker!). I added inserts to the pipes, to reduce the sound level a bit, as it was on the "too loud" side.

@piney posted:

Looks good

PIM headers, 2.5" pipes from collector to mufflers

@pitney - could you give us more information on the FK Automotive mufflers, part number, where to buy etc.  Thanks, Larry

@Lardog I bought the mufflers about ten years ago, one year after I got the car, because I knew I wanted that Mind Train look. Time flew by though, and it wasn´t until the just finished restoration the idea came to fruition. Looking at FK Automotive´s website now, they have gone in a different direction. However, I did a Google Lens image search, and found the same muffler, rebranded, I guess. It seems a common name for it is Pan2000, I´ve seen Sumex Pan2000, but also the name DTM Look Double. Where to buy? Now, I´m not sure. It says out of stock  on Amazon Italy. A couple of sites here in Sweden "seem" to have it, but those sites look kinda fishy - selling foods and health care as well..!?

Sorry I can´t be of more help.

Another route could be to find a couple of shorter bullet style mufflers and have someone weld a Y-pipe to the inlets, add a bracket in the middle and a couple of slash cut pipes. Pretty much what I guess Mind Train did.

I think these were actually Hall exhaust that i got with my car back in 2007. but as suggested above we just cut them off and welded on new ones. all pieces were purchased off Ebay

Hall Big-Bore exhausts were popular with hard-of-hearing owners back in the day. I liked their looks so bought a set (used) and did a 50 mile tour in the mountains with them. Took them off as soon as I got back home & they cooled down. Turned out I was the 3rd or 4th owner that did the same thing. Aluminized and well made with one little problem: they used thick, crushable circular 'doughnut' gasket-rings between my Hooker headers and the Hall exhausts, combined with completely inadequate muffler support brackets.

The combination along with engine vibration crushed, then pieces fell out-  both brand new gaskets  during my 50 mile ride, allowing the mufflers to twist sideways and multiply the noise. I was lucky to not get a ticket for excess noise! Instead of cutting the doughnut flanges off and substituting flat, armored gaskets, I sold the still-pristine exhausts that same weekend.

Have not heard of the similar flat-gasket Mind-Train exhausts having this problem, only banging noises from the big 2-1/2" tubes hitting rear suspension parts while driving..Some pounding of clearance may be required. YMMV... 

The crushing of those exhaust donut gaskets can be eliminated with a short (maybe an inch and a half) sleeve of 1-3/4" exhaust pipe slid inside the donut to support it.

it worked for me prior to the changeover to the Mind Train pipes.

Careful 'dimpling' of the 2-1/2" pipes at the tight points gave me clearance at the swing arms, after a few miles the sway bar made it's own clearance dimples.

@piney - Thank you for the information.  They look great.

Hi all,

MindTrain is mounted. The flange on the mind train was cut and welt the original flange from standard exhaust (cut before) We used the original mounted exaust manifold in the car. sound is great and I do not notice any power reduction by possibly reduced back pressure... The car had a 380 HP on dyno with the new single stack EFI. I probably would not notice some HP lost... thank you guys.

Uli

...I use Thick Copper Gaskets at the Collector, they're Reusable, and don't fall apart. If you can afford a Pantera, you can afford the expense of copper.

...About the gentleman in the photo, who Appears to be ARC-welding. NO Gloves-NO face shield...Your hands, arms, face and especially the Lips, Get 'Sun-Burned'!

NO 'Eye' Protection...You WILL Go Blind, Permanently. Just seeing a Weldor strike an Arc, as far away as Across the street, can sun-burn your Eyes with Blisters.

Without a Face Shield, Even Oxy-Accetelene Welding will Blister your lips badly, from personal experience.

Since 1965, I have taught welding to students in Junior high metal shop and countless others through the years, I know of what the Instructor trained Me.

MJ       

I have had a 2-1/2" Mind Train exhaust system on my Pantera since 1977.  Bought it back when Fred Matsumoto ran Mind-Train. The system is quite loud with out the tailpipe inserts, so I would definitely recommend them.   Back then 4 fiberglass packed inserts cost $50 and they slipped right into the tailpipes.  Just needed one screw in each pipe to secure them. !  Also, if you flip each side halfshaft, that resolves the pipe clearance issues - at least on my Pantera it did!  This is with the upgraded SPICER halfshafts, which are superior to the stock Pantera halfshafts and the U-Joints in them last at least 100K miles.  The SPICER U-Joints will not interchange with the stock Pantera U-Joints.  I forget what the halfshaft interchange # was, but they were originally for the front on a 4WD Pickup truck.

If you're reading this, I posted another topic on reproduction Mind Train parts.

@cuvee posted:

Been looking at Utube Videos about people adding a pipe just before the Muffler called 1/4 Wave Helmholtz Resonator. Not sure something like this might help the drone with Our Pantera's or even fit? There seems to be a Formula for the Length of the pipe? I'm sure someone Sharper then I could figure this out, maybe Gerry?

I have the cross over pipe on my Mind Train exhaust system. It did change the sound of the exhaust after it was installed. There is just enough room to install the cross over pipe, however once it is installed the heat from that pipe will be picked up by the air that is being pulled through the air conditioning condenser and some of which will be recirculated back through the condenser.