Mind Train Exhaust Availability

Mind Train has been out of business for many years now…  you might be able to find someone’s used set, but I haven’t seen any advertised in a long time…

I’ve read articles about people opening up their stock Ansas and modifying the flow path. I have not done this.  I thought the goal was to try and cut down on the 2000-2500 RPM exhaust drone (sound).

My IMPRESSION and recollection is that it was a good bit of work, but didn’t really satisfy those few who did it.  I may be wrong about the results.  If my memory is faulty, I hope someone with actual experience can correct me…

Rocky

Dear Chuck,

            Based on Gerry Romack's report of success with his muffler mods and second hand reports from two or three other owners with similar success, I tried my hand at muffler surgery to stop the notorious drone from about 2000 to 2400 rpm.

           I have the GTS mufflers.  The process is pretty well illustrated in Gerry's tech article on the Great Lakes Panteras' website and I followed it.  I may have been too compulsive and I found it slow and tedious to cut apart the internal components.  It is do-able.  I re-built the internal parts arrangement per Gerry, welded it up and re-installed them.

          Despite Gerry's reported success and my high hopes, I found only mild to moderate success.  The drone remains and seems a bit muted.  Overall, outside of the drone range, the general exhaust noise seems reduced.  I would not call it a major success.

          I believe there may be another article about GTS muffler mods on the Space City Panteras website written years ago by David Bell. 

                  Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

I had Mind Train on my previous 72. A fantastic sound. My favorite. I read somewhere years ago that the mufflers where actually "Cherry Bombs" a brand from the 60-70s available at any speed shop.

Mike Daily at the Pantera Place did this mod on his car.

ANSA Mufflers (panteraplace.com)

Been looking at Utube Videos about people adding a pipe just before the Muffler called 1/4 Wave Helmholtz Resonator. Not sure something like this might help the drone with Our Pantera's or even fit? There seems to be a Formula for the Length of the pipe? I'm sure someone Sharper then I could figure this out, maybe Gerry?

I have a reproduction set of the Mind Train exhaust system. The mufflers are basically straight through glass packs and the pipes from the headers to the mufflers, I believe are a bit over two inches in diameter. When I first installed the headers and mufflers, the sound of the engine had a bit of a crackling sound. As soon as I installed the exhaust cross over pipe, the crackling sound went away!

@cuvee posted:

Been looking at Utube Videos about people adding a pipe just before the Muffler called 1/4 Wave Resonator. Not sure something like this might help the drone with Our Pantera's or even fit? There seems to be a Formula for the Length of the pipe? I'm sure someone Sharper then I could figure this out, maybe Gerry?

I have the crossover pipe on my exhaust system, which fits just under the transaxle. The crossover pipe did make the entire system sound better, but there is a catch to having it where it is which is really the only place to install it. I noticed that my air conditioning system never worked as well as it did before I installed the exhaust crossover. The way the condenser is mounted on a Pantera and how the fan operates, it basically recirculates air around the exhaust crossover pipe.  I have since relocated the air conditioning condenser to the front of the radiator, which made the system work like a normal vehicle's.

is the reproduction set still available ?

@uli posted:

is the reproduction set still available ?

I am not sure if it is still available. I think Pantera International might still have them. I bought mine way back around 2001. The entire system is ceramic coated and it is loud!

Got one :-) not yet installed, will let you know the differences,

cheers, Uli

When you install that Mind Train Exhaust, you might notice a crackling sound that wasn't there before. My engine had it after I installed the Mind Train system, but the installation of the crossover pipe took care of the problem.

ALL v-8s should have a balance tube.

For one thing, the camshaft timing is designed to take advantage of exhaust scavenging. You can't get that unless both sides are tied together, i.e., balance tube.

Separating the exhausts one side from the other is going to make the idle rougher.

You can hear the rough idle, even on a mild cam, on cars like Cobras and Corvettes with side pipes.

You are giving away torque with that setup. How much? You would need to do an extensive dyno test to find out. I'd take a guess and say in the 30 to 40 lb-ft vicinity.

@panteradoug posted:

ALL v-8s should have a balance tube.

For one thing, the camshaft timing is designed to take advantage of exhaust scavenging. You can't get that unless both sides are tied together, i.e., balance tube.

Separating the exhausts one side from the other is going to make the idle rougher.

You can hear the rough idle, even on a mild cam, on cars like Cobras and Corvettes with side pipes.

You are giving away torque with that setup. How much? You would need to do an extensive dyno test to find out. I'd take a guess and say in the 30 to 40 lb-ft vicinity.

I am going to agree with you on the crossover pipe picking up torque. I don't have any chassis dyno numbers for my car before and after the crossover tube installation, but the seat of my pants told me that there was more available power after the installation.  The only problem with installing a crossover tube on a Pantera's exhaust system is that there is only one place to install it and that does cause more heat to be pulled into the air conditioning condenser. Of course, as soon as you move the condenser to the front of the radiator, that exhaust crossover heat problem goes away.

@jffr,

Can you upload a picture of your crossover pipe? I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to see how it was done.

Steve

@tsolo posted:

@jffr,

Can you upload a picture of your crossover pipe? I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to see how it was done.

Steve

I will get a good picture of the crossover set up when I get the exhaust system put back on the car. Hopefully that will be today!

I believe this is a Mind Train muffler system with the cross-over.  Old pic from long ago.  Performance be dammed, I would not want that thing sitting underneath my ZF for many reasons.

Mid engine cars often have difficulty in arriving at a "cosmetically acceptable" appearance in their design.

I went with 180 headers that solve that issue. Admittedly they are just a bit on the loud side but in a Pantera the cockpit is quiet since the sound is behind you.

@panterapatt posted:

I believe this is a Mind Train muffler system with the cross-over.  Old pic from long ago.  Performance be dammed, I would not want that thing sitting underneath my ZF for many reasons.

As I have said several times before, the air conditioning system will not work as well because you are recirculating hot air from around the crossover pipe. I know this because that is what happened to my system after installing the pipe. That problem was later taken care of by moving the air conditioning condenser to the front of the car. I never noticed any problem with the ZF after installing the crossover.

That photo of the white pre-L Pantera above once belonged to Roger Sharp of CA. He built his own headers and that rear balance 'pipe' is actually a 3rd glass-pak muffler, in a vain attempt to quiet the beast! Mind-Train went out of business in the mid-'70s; the owner was a racing and Bonneville fan, and actually started P.I. They featured 2-1/2" exhaust pipes from the headers back and were loud!

I have a set on my L. Over time I lost one tip resonator on each side, so she is a bit loud. But at least it's even

Here is a look inside. You'll see the resonator in the tip (left) has an outlet diameter of just about 1-1/2", the muffler outlet into the tip is just about 1-3/4". The pipe from the collector through the split to the mufflers is 2-1/2".

The area of the 2-1/2" pipe works out to 4.9 sq in, pushed through the mufflers at a net 4.27 sq in, and then pushed out through the tip resonators at a net of 3.52 sq in.