Have installed the mind train but used the existing manilfold and not the manifold which was sent with the mindtrain mufflers with a smaller pipe diameter. I was told that by reducing the exhaust back pressure the engine power shrink. the mindtrain mufflers are causing less back pressure and therefore the manifold would need to have a smaller diameter. is that right ?
There have been anecdotes that say “backpressure” helps generate more torque…. but I don’t believe it.
A free-flow through the system helps pull in the intake charge.
I’m sure someone like Dan Jones has data…. my comments are also anecdotal.
Rocky
My Mind Train headers (photo above) have the 1-3/4" primary pipes. I like them because the design doesn't come so close to the gas tank heat shield.
I use a set of the stainless steel Stinger exhaust port plates on my 4V Cleveland heads. Raises and flattens the port floor where the gas velocity is low.
The resulting port size matches pretty well to the primary pipe of the headers. I did die grind away some weld boogers to smooth things up.
I have no solid numbers, but it sure seems healthier than with the prior set of Hall headers necked down to 1-5/8" at the collector donut.
@rocky posted:There have been anecdotes that say “backpressure” helps generate more torque…. but I don’t believe it .…. my comments are also anecdotal.
If you have the Mind Train headers, those are the headers I would use with the Mind Train tail pipes. I would eliminate restrictions and pinch points. Back pressure is bad. Very very bad. The back pressure inherent in any exhaust system, especially one with mufflers, is more than enough. There's no reason for anyone to go out of their way to create more.
Did you know the original headers sold by Mind Train to accompany their tail pipes were designed by Cragar the chrome wheel company? Cragar sold them independently before Mind Train started using them. They were (and still are) good headers.
Muffler design is a compromise between size, sound level, longevity, and back pressure. Magnaflow mufflers have an excellent reputation for high output and reasonable sound level, even in smaller sizes; but they have poor longevity. They use a fibrous packing material to achieve their sound level performance and that packing material loses its efficiency as it fills with carbon and unburned oil and gasoline particles (dirt bikers call this stuff “splooge”). This is true for any muffler that uses a fibrous packing material to deaden sound, like the Mind Train exhaust system. Other mufflers which use baffles to reduce sound level are often louder and/or impact an engine’s output to a greater degree. Mufflers which are both quiet and have good longevity will impact an engine’s output the most, unless they are very large. That describes the GTS exhaust. We don't have the option of "large mufflers" with Panteras.
-G
I had an idea for a Mind Train style exhaust, using a double muffler setup from FK Automotive and then I had my buddy weld on 3" pipes cut at a 35 degree angle. They turned out great and the sound is hard to beat (also because of the new rather high comp 393C stroker!). I added inserts to the pipes, to reduce the sound level a bit, as it was on the "too loud" side.
Attachments
@pitney - could you give us more information on the FK Automotive mufflers, part number, where to buy etc. Thanks, Larry
@Lardog I bought the mufflers about ten years ago, one year after I got the car, because I knew I wanted that Mind Train look. Time flew by though, and it wasn´t until the just finished restoration the idea came to fruition. Looking at FK Automotive´s website now, they have gone in a different direction. However, I did a Google Lens image search, and found the same muffler, rebranded, I guess. It seems a common name for it is Pan2000, I´ve seen Sumex Pan2000, but also the name DTM Look Double. Where to buy? Now, I´m not sure. It says out of stock on Amazon Italy. A couple of sites here in Sweden "seem" to have it, but those sites look kinda fishy - selling foods and health care as well..!?
Sorry I can´t be of more help.
Another route could be to find a couple of shorter bullet style mufflers and have someone weld a Y-pipe to the inlets, add a bracket in the middle and a couple of slash cut pipes. Pretty much what I guess Mind Train did.
Attachments
I think these were actually Hall exhaust that i got with my car back in 2007. but as suggested above we just cut them off and welded on new ones. all pieces were purchased off EbayHall Big-Bore exhausts were popular with hard-of-hearing owners back in the day. I liked their looks so bought a set (used) and did a 50 mile tour in the mountains with them. Took them off as soon as I got back home & they cooled down. Turned out I was the 3rd or 4th owner that did the same thing. Aluminized and well made with one little problem: they used thick, crushable circular 'doughnut' gasket-rings between my Hooker headers and the Hall exhausts, combined with completely inadequate muffler support brackets.
The combination along with engine vibration crushed, then pieces fell out- both brand new gaskets during my 50 mile ride, allowing the mufflers to twist sideways and multiply the noise. I was lucky to not get a ticket for excess noise! Instead of cutting the doughnut flanges off and substituting flat, armored gaskets, I sold the still-pristine exhausts that same weekend.
Have not heard of the similar flat-gasket Mind-Train exhausts having this problem, only banging noises from the big 2-1/2" tubes hitting rear suspension parts while driving..Some pounding of clearance may be required. YMMV...
The crushing of those exhaust donut gaskets can be eliminated with a short (maybe an inch and a half) sleeve of 1-3/4" exhaust pipe slid inside the donut to support it.
it worked for me prior to the changeover to the Mind Train pipes.
Careful 'dimpling' of the 2-1/2" pipes at the tight points gave me clearance at the swing arms, after a few miles the sway bar made it's own clearance dimples.
@piney - Thank you for the information. They look great.
Hi all,
MindTrain is mounted. The flange on the mind train was cut and welt the original flange from standard exhaust (cut before) We used the original mounted exaust manifold in the car. sound is great and I do not notice any power reduction by possibly reduced back pressure... The car had a 380 HP on dyno with the new single stack EFI. I probably would not notice some HP lost... thank you guys.
Uli
...I use Thick Copper Gaskets at the Collector, they're Reusable, and don't fall apart. If you can afford a Pantera, you can afford the expense of copper.
...About the gentleman in the photo, who Appears to be ARC-welding. NO Gloves-NO face shield...Your hands, arms, face and especially the Lips, Get 'Sun-Burned'!
NO 'Eye' Protection...You WILL Go Blind, Permanently. Just seeing a Weldor strike an Arc, as far away as Across the street, can sun-burn your Eyes with Blisters.
Without a Face Shield, Even Oxy-Accetelene Welding will Blister your lips badly, from personal experience.
Since 1965, I have taught welding to students in Junior high metal shop and countless others through the years, I know of what the Instructor trained Me.
MJ
I have had a 2-1/2" Mind Train exhaust system on my Pantera since 1977. Bought it back when Fred Matsumoto ran Mind-Train. The system is quite loud with out the tailpipe inserts, so I would definitely recommend them. Back then 4 fiberglass packed inserts cost $50 and they slipped right into the tailpipes. Just needed one screw in each pipe to secure them. ! Also, if you flip each side halfshaft, that resolves the pipe clearance issues - at least on my Pantera it did! This is with the upgraded SPICER halfshafts, which are superior to the stock Pantera halfshafts and the U-Joints in them last at least 100K miles. The SPICER U-Joints will not interchange with the stock Pantera U-Joints. I forget what the halfshaft interchange # was, but they were originally for the front on a 4WD Pickup truck.