MME ENGINE FAILURE UPDATE

I believe you and I believe Jessel.

Again, with those kinds of lifts, and that kind of failure, I think that it is highly likely that you have binding in the valve train.

First, that lift requires a competition head. Competition in the sense that the valve springs need to be much taller then normal.

The head needs to be able to accomodate them without the valve spring retainer and the valve guide coming into contact.

That means that the lengths of the valves need to be something like 1/2" longer then stock.

I think that if you look in that area, you will have found your culpret.

Incidentally, your engine builder should have advised you that the life of those valve springs is going to be considerably reduced over that of a stock engine because of the increased lift of the camshaft.

What does that mean? It means that in less then 5,000 miles, if that, you are going to need to replace them.

The numbers you quoted to me is nothing less then a full competition valve train. They simply do not have the same durabilaty as stock. The pressure of the springs at full lift alone puts the engine on the ragged edge. If I remember correctly (and that's a stretch for me ) some race engines require the springs to be changed after every run down the 1/4 mile.

Also, any lift over about .550 the builder needs to be 1000% sure of the valve train geometry and that the valve spring retainer is not coming into contact with the rocker arm, because they have a nasty habbit of doing that.

Just my opinion.

If that is the case I will detune the engine with a lower lift cam and try to get about 600-625hp at the flywheel instead of the 713hp the engine dynoed at.

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
If that is the case I will detune the engine with a lower lift cam and try to get about 600-625hp at the flywheel instead of the 713hp the engine dynoed at.

What's wrong with a good old 500hp engine? Anything more in a Pantera is questionable anyway? Torque limits in the ZF, radiator limitations, suspension limitations. 700 belongs in a dragster. Not a car that you want to go anywhere with without a trailer.


It took me two hours to get from Giant Stadium to the GWB. I can't immagine what it would be like driving a 700hp Pantera in that.
Just my opinion.

I would say I would have to agree with Doug 100%. Not sure why there is an 700hp motor in your Pantera ? You cant drive it anywhere .. it breaks ... and personally I dont think even the rocker arms are the end of it.

Its a race motor .. not meant to be driving down the parkway to whiskey, kingston, ... it requires adjustments, tuning, tweeking, on a daily basis and unless you can od it yourself ..its costly.

My experience has always been with engine builders ..they ask me whats the application and then we go at it. My builder at present has made adjsutments to the build ... we are going Hydraulic Roller, lower compression ... ever since I decided a Pantera wasnt the car to go roead racing with. When I went from racing Super Stock Comet to Super Pro ...it was because SS got too expensive ... Cerralli adjsuted the build but not too far from SS ..he kept it reliable for me .. because as a twenty year old kid I was learning ..he thought it best that I learned how to drive a race car then set the land speed record.

Application Application Application

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
... Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here ...

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

quote:

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

True. But everyone - everyone - goofs once in a while. As Mooso wrote earlier,

"It's not how you treat your customer when everything goes right...it's how you treat them when things go wrong that reveals your true character."

Strangely, with the exception of George, I have not seen a bunch of postings on this thread from anyone else who have also dealt with MME.

As far as I can tell at this point, the jury is still out on exactly what is causing catastrophic failure in Chris' motor.

As for defaming the reputation of a businessman, I remember (and found) the following posted back on March 11,2008:


"2. Doing business with Flow Kooler

I had difficulties with the new owner of Flow Kooler on a businessman to businessman level last year. I am leary of the man's motives. I would prefer to send business elsewhere when possible. That's all I am prepared to write.

cowboy from hell"


Larry

quote:

As for making a comments about an engine builder or any other vendor. Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here?

You mean a free and open exchange of thoughts and ideas?

Why, what kind of radical ARE you?

I agree with your statement 100%.

Larry

Hellow Chris,
Sorry for your troubles,Your problem is with the rockers breaking, considering the whole of your hard earned investment, If this is locallized to just the rockers and all is well with the rest of the engine, then something in the geometry of your rockers or just a bad set of parts would be a small problem and in the end I hope it is a simple thing. I would not want to try and sharpshoot any of the problem at this point.
I also know that I would be livid after spending as much as you have and not getting a better response from the builder!
Thank You for warning myself and others of your experience with yet another vendor that would take advantage of enthusiast threw this or any website!
I am sure that if you would have gotten what you expected, and I know they said they could deliver what you wanted before they got your money, you would be praising them instead!

Again, Thank you! Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
... Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here ...

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

Every business uses recommendations to fuel their future business. Customers need to know the non-recommendations as well.

This is just a non-recommendation. What's the big deal?

I am in business also. I simply have a clause in my proposals that state that the "components" are waranteed by their manufacturers. I am not responsible for the labor cost to replace those items under waranty.

It's very simple. I didn't make them. I don't guaranty them either. That's the manufacturers problem.

I'm sure that this is as close to an identical problem as can be, considering we are talking about apples and oranges.

I don't think that is a harsh statement at all. Let Jessel pay the costs of replacing the arms. (Yea, right!)

Doug - Jesel has agreed to replace all three arms for free and they have connected me with a preferred vendor of theirs for a free diagnosis of the cause of the rocker arms.

Kudos to Jesel for going way out of the box to help an owner of their parts who did not buy directly from them.

The car is scheduled for the 26th to have the valve train diagnosed. Big thanks to Jersey Panteras member Mel Goldenberg for the use of his newly purchased trailer to transport the car.

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME.

My specs were 600+hp, 500 ft/lbs of torque from 3000 rpm to 7000 rpm and ability to spin 7500 rpm without coming apart and more than about 40,000 miles before needing any major rebuild. That would be about four years for me between rebuilds.

Larry - Thanks for the support.

That's great progress. Congrats.

I am very interested in what the cause is found to be. I think that Jessel suspects what I did.

When I was younger and crazier (imagine that?) most manufacturers would replace the parts for free. It just makes good sense for them to do that.

I like the original requests you made for hp. Unless it is made by more cubes it would still be a handful too though.

The big block Cobras have a lot of similar characteristics with 500 ft-lbs Panteras right off of idle. They are going to break traction off of idle.
Whatever. I hope it all works out ok for you.

Kudos to Jesel ??? WHAT DA F$%# ..Kudos to a multi million dollar co warranting 3 rockers ? yea right ?

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME ..... but you certainly are going to have to deal with what comes with a 700hp motor and if you think your going to get 40k miles out of it your dreaming .. maybe 25k. Mybe the use of this CHI Jesel combo in te MASTER COMP for a total of 20 minutes ... doesnt hold up longer then 1 hour on the street ??

The point is simple and I deal with it every day ... to warranty or not to warranty .. whos responsible and who spec'd. Lord knows I battled this theory in court a few times.

Me myself and my Business we are not in any YELLOW PAGES or any paid advertizement , we dont do mailings ...its all word of mouth and I know for sure the cost of 3 rockers wouldnt be in question .. the knowledge to why they failed would make me lose sleep at night wondering how many more I installed that are going to fail and cost me future business.

Best of Luck.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Kudos to Jesel ??? WHAT DA F$%# ..Kudos to a multi million dollar co warranting 3 rockers ? yea right ?

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME ..... but you certainly are going to have to deal with what comes with a 700hp motor and if you think your going to get 40k miles out of it your dreaming .. maybe 25k. Mybe the use of this CHI Jesel combo in te MASTER COMP for a total of 20 minutes ... doesnt hold up longer then 1 hour on the street ??

The point is simple and I deal with it every day ... to warranty or not to warranty .. whos responsible and who spec'd. Lord knows I battled this theory in court a few times.

Me myself and my Business we are not in any YELLOW PAGES or any paid advertizement , we dont do mailings ...its all word of mouth and I know for sure the cost of 3 rockers wouldnt be in question .. the knowledge to why they failed would make me lose sleep at night wondering how many more I installed that are going to fail and cost me future business.

Best of Luck.

1000% correct...and why did they fail? 700 horses can be a rough bunch.

I'm anxious to hear the results of Jesel's failure analysis. FWIW, these things don't just break. A bad batch of castings is a nice fantasy, but highly unlikely. I suspect there's an interference problem - valve spring coil bind, pushrod length too long, etc. - any of which would be the builder's responsibility as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, I've been thoroughly impressed with an engine builder in the LA area who has stood by his work when the engine he rebuilt lost oil pressure and failed within the first couple hundred miles, three consecutive times! Each time he tore it apart to analyze the cause of the problem and rebuilt it again at no additional cost. The owner of the car is a good friend of mine who said (IIRC) that he was only out the cost of the oil, filter, and intake/exhaust gaskets, and the effort to pull and replace the engine 4x after the initial build. That engine now has about 1,200 miles on it and all looks good. Kudo's to the builder for standing behind his work and supporting his customers!

Once the engine is done being broken-in and survives another 1,000 miles (within 1-2 months) I'm sure there will be a follow up post with all the gory details.

I was referred to MME sometime last year by a forum member when I was looking for someone that knows the 351c. After speaking with MME I felt good about them doing my build. I told them my use, seldom on the track but still driven hard as well a good street driving car. They said any hard driving on the track I should go to a Windsor. I didn’t want to go that way. My number one requirement was reliability, then HP. I mentioned going with MSD, they recommended ICE. I didn’t want to be adjusting lifters either. I let them do what they do best… Bottom line.. 586hp/540tq…..2000+ miles. Not so much as a hic-up.. (and 15mpg)

I usually try to stay out of most of these type of post's. But I believe that what was said earlier over rides all other views (at least to me).
"It is not how you treat your customer when everything is working great, but how you treat your customer when everything is going wrong, that defines your true character"!
All my business comes by word of mouth (I do not really advertise my business to the public), And yet for the most part I stay very busy year after year, despite the economy. Not that the econmy does not effect me, because when it is down I have to lower prices (so less profit) to compete with guys who are desperate to get business and give away the farm. I put thousands of dollars of manufactured parts and equipment into every job, and I guarantee it. If the manufacturer does not stand behind the product, then I replace it with another brand of equal quality and drop the other manufacturer. If he cannot guarantee his product to my customer and me, then I will have nothing to do with that company!
I have had to make a few demands time to time to remind some companys that they need to step up and take care of things. But for the most part they want my business and I make it clear what it will take to keep my buiness. Years ago I remember reading a couple of books called "In Search of excellence", and another called "Excellence the High Calling", and the truth is each business makes a valid decision each day whether they are going to rise to the excellent level or motor along at the average level.
I have had to eat the cost of some repairs because a home owner has missused products and caused damage to them (and some of these customers were real jerks), but I have taken care of them any way, and I have never regretted these type of decisions. I believe you always come out miles ahead to take the high road!

A couple of quotes on excellence:
The ordinary seek to do what is easiest, the excellent seek to do what is right.

The cowardly do right because it is safer.
The ambitious do right because it is expedient.
The miserly do right because it is cheaper.
The average do right because it is expected.
But the best do right because it is!

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

1). By its very nature excelence is irrational.
2).True excellence is totally impractical.
3). True excellence is totally uncalculating.
4).True excellence is completely unlimited.

The truth is that each day we wake up and make a decision to get out of bed, a decision to get dressed, maybe even a decision to eat breakfast.
Why not a decision to take the high road of excellence. One thing that I have noticed with a few of the excellent ones that I have come to know and appreciate, is that as I watch their very impressive life style, they are not satisfied with just walking the high road of excellence, but also take the time to reach down to one like myself maybe walking the middle road of average, and try to bring us up to their level. What a view from the high road! Please understand I do not think that I am there yet, but I certainly have an appreciation of that sweet aroma of EXCELLENCE!

quote:

....."We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle......Please understand I do not think that I am there yet, but I certainly have an appreciation of that sweet aroma of EXCELLENCE!

The excellent never accept that they have arrived at the level of "excellence". That's how they get there. In the end, we can choose to be miserable or choose to strive to be the best we can be. It really is a choice. Not everyone realizes this. -Well said Rapid.

Terry - I am happy for you that everything worked out great. I can only wish my experience was as good as yours. - Chris