Ah the other MAXIMUS bought the 87GTS ? OK names and faces got it.
I think members of the forum would benefit from knowing what was causing the rockers to break. For this reason, and this reason alone, I am leaving this thread open for now. This way, if Chris wishes to share with the forum the findings of Dwayne Gutridge, he can. Mr. Gutridge mentioned getting to the root of the problem. I think we would all benefit from knowing the root of the problem.
Mark or I will lock this thread up after Chris posts the findings of Dwayne Gutridge, or in about a week even if Chris hasn't posted by then.
In the mean time I would like to request that other members refrain from posting in this thread. I think everything that needs to be expressed has already been expressed.
I've allowed this thread to stand without locking it down first to avoid people thinking I was in some way protecting MME, because I have recommended MME to members here. Another reason for allowing this thread to stand was as an experiment, to see what would happen. I will summarize my thoughts on that at some time in the future, after Chris has had a chance to post Dwayne Gutridge's findings.
cowboy from hell
Mark or I will lock this thread up after Chris posts the findings of Dwayne Gutridge, or in about a week even if Chris hasn't posted by then.
In the mean time I would like to request that other members refrain from posting in this thread. I think everything that needs to be expressed has already been expressed.
I've allowed this thread to stand without locking it down first to avoid people thinking I was in some way protecting MME, because I have recommended MME to members here. Another reason for allowing this thread to stand was as an experiment, to see what would happen. I will summarize my thoughts on that at some time in the future, after Chris has had a chance to post Dwayne Gutridge's findings.
cowboy from hell
OK GEORGE - The bottom line is that incorrect part selection and incorrect set up resulted in a valve train that was out of control. A 12 page report was generated by Jesel detailing all the issues.
The issues that are happening are real and forum members should have the chance to judge for themselves the merits of any vendor they are considering using.
Chris Lewis
The issues that are happening are real and forum members should have the chance to judge for themselves the merits of any vendor they are considering using.
Chris Lewis
Scan .... copy ...paste ... and post ? Were waiting ?
I also think that it should be posted. I think that MME should be given a copy as well. I think that MME should have the right to go over the claims by Jessel and post his comments here also.
I am sure that can be done by early next week. The report is currently with Mel Goldenberg, I will get it this weekend and find a way to get it scanned and posted. I am all for full disclosure, I certainly have nothing to hide.
Chris Lewis
Chris Lewis
I'd like to see the report for the purpose of learning what causes problems. Please post and George, please leave the thread open for a while longer so that we may all learn.
Hey , Here is the info on Chris's engine results. Just click the link and enjoy.
http://preverts-lair.com/Chris's_engine_results.zip
Thanks, P-MAXIMUS
http://preverts-lair.com/Chris's_engine_results.zip
Thanks, P-MAXIMUS
That report made for some interesting reading.
How long before thread is deleted?
How long before thread is deleted?
I really don't see any reason that this thread should be deleted. That would be like censorship, wouldn't it?
Ok locked
Why mark, would you lock this thread when the result info just gets posted. At least give other a chance to voice what they have read in it. Pro or con.
Thanks, P-MAXIMUS
Thanks, P-MAXIMUS
Interesting.
They way I read it it says 1)normally this kind of failure is only found in coil bind situations. There was no coil bind found.
2)It could have been caused by the adjuster nut being held on by only 1-1/2 threads. That was because the push rods were too long.
3) More likely it occurred because the pushrods were flexing because they weren't strong enough for the spring pressure.
4)The spring pressures may have been excessive or the cam profile too radical for the springs to maintain proper control of the valve train.
5)the rocker arms may have failed because the pushrods "flexed" enough for them to come out of their guides, the rocker arms then were uncontrolled and crashed on something or each other, bound and broke.
In my experience the pushrods are the fuseable link, i.e., they bend or brake first. That is what you want to keep the valve stems from the part that needs to fail. Therefore they probably aren't a mismatch at all. They didn't break. They are the super hardened ones and don't bend at all. When they fail the tips usually shatter. Ask me how I know that one.
Bottom line conclusion, the cam is PROBABLY too radical for DEPENDABLE street use, spring pressures PROBABLY too high for longevity BUT no one can prove it.
Culpret? ...drum roll here...who picked the cam? Great suspense but a predictable ending.
Incidentally I am sorry for your grief, expense and heartache. It's a lousy situation. I'm not picking on anyone or making fun of anyone. Live and learn I guess? I still am.
They way I read it it says 1)normally this kind of failure is only found in coil bind situations. There was no coil bind found.
2)It could have been caused by the adjuster nut being held on by only 1-1/2 threads. That was because the push rods were too long.
3) More likely it occurred because the pushrods were flexing because they weren't strong enough for the spring pressure.
4)The spring pressures may have been excessive or the cam profile too radical for the springs to maintain proper control of the valve train.
5)the rocker arms may have failed because the pushrods "flexed" enough for them to come out of their guides, the rocker arms then were uncontrolled and crashed on something or each other, bound and broke.
In my experience the pushrods are the fuseable link, i.e., they bend or brake first. That is what you want to keep the valve stems from the part that needs to fail. Therefore they probably aren't a mismatch at all. They didn't break. They are the super hardened ones and don't bend at all. When they fail the tips usually shatter. Ask me how I know that one.
Bottom line conclusion, the cam is PROBABLY too radical for DEPENDABLE street use, spring pressures PROBABLY too high for longevity BUT no one can prove it.
Culpret? ...drum roll here...who picked the cam? Great suspense but a predictable ending.
Incidentally I am sorry for your grief, expense and heartache. It's a lousy situation. I'm not picking on anyone or making fun of anyone. Live and learn I guess? I still am.
The rockers failed because the pushrod was too long and the adjuster wasnt caught with enough threads ... the rest is surge and bounce .. due to the incorrect geometry. dont confuse examples and theory.
Some additional information for the forum.
The springs on the head are Manley Part No. 221424-16. The retainer found on them was tool steel and did not fit the springs. The retainers were loose on the springs not fitting properly at all.
According to Manley the correct retainer is a titanium piece that fits precisely this spring set. Please feel free to verify this with Manley.
Based on the all the evidence of the valve train not being in proper control I feel that it points to two basic areas: A)Mistakes in part selection (1. Wrong retainers, 2. Improper length pushrods) and B)Mistakes in the set-up.(1. Not properly shimming the springs to limit any tendencey for resonance. 2. Improper setting of the lash adjusters, thereby negativley affecting the geometry of the push rods vs the tail of the rocker arms.)
Anyhow that is how I read the report.
The springs on the head are Manley Part No. 221424-16. The retainer found on them was tool steel and did not fit the springs. The retainers were loose on the springs not fitting properly at all.
According to Manley the correct retainer is a titanium piece that fits precisely this spring set. Please feel free to verify this with Manley.
Based on the all the evidence of the valve train not being in proper control I feel that it points to two basic areas: A)Mistakes in part selection (1. Wrong retainers, 2. Improper length pushrods) and B)Mistakes in the set-up.(1. Not properly shimming the springs to limit any tendencey for resonance. 2. Improper setting of the lash adjusters, thereby negativley affecting the geometry of the push rods vs the tail of the rocker arms.)
Anyhow that is how I read the report.
Hey, Doug,
>2)It could have been caused by the adjuster nut being held on by only 1-1/2 threads. That was because the push rods were too long.
Actually the push rods were to short. A shaft system needs to have the adjuster in the middle of it's travel, Doug.
> 5)the rocker arms may have failed because the pushrods "flexed" enough for them to come out of their guides, the rocker arms then were uncontrolled and crashed on something or each other, bound and broke.
The puhrods could not come out of their guides, because there are no guides on a shaft system.
> Culpret? ...drum roll here...who picked the cam? Great suspense but a predictable ending.
Well here it comes it's, it's,it's---------_________>MME's pick!
Thanks, P-MAXIMUS
>2)It could have been caused by the adjuster nut being held on by only 1-1/2 threads. That was because the push rods were too long.
Actually the push rods were to short. A shaft system needs to have the adjuster in the middle of it's travel, Doug.
> 5)the rocker arms may have failed because the pushrods "flexed" enough for them to come out of their guides, the rocker arms then were uncontrolled and crashed on something or each other, bound and broke.
The puhrods could not come out of their guides, because there are no guides on a shaft system.
> Culpret? ...drum roll here...who picked the cam? Great suspense but a predictable ending.
Well here it comes it's, it's,it's---------_________>MME's pick!
Thanks, P-MAXIMUS
Thanks Max, got me on that one, I kept thinking rocker studs, sorry. T many Martuni's.
I would have bet that the bottom of the arms hit the spring retainers, especially with a short push rod. No mention of that though.
These rocker arms were the cup design right? 1-1/2 threads. Wow. Even I wouldn't do that.
I do know that I didn't spec the cam, and am really glad about that one.
I would have bet that the bottom of the arms hit the spring retainers, especially with a short push rod. No mention of that though.
These rocker arms were the cup design right? 1-1/2 threads. Wow. Even I wouldn't do that.
I do know that I didn't spec the cam, and am really glad about that one.
Something else to think about.
1. Where the pedestals the correct ones ? where they the correct hieght ?
2. Where the heads milled the proper hieght by CHI ?
All this would have contributed to the incorrect geometry not just a push rod too long.
The rest of the surge and bounce theory with the wrong retainers caused the overheating on the shaft and rocker arm potentially combined with the bolt caught on the last thread ... too bad we didnt still have a broken rocker for it to be tested for stress cracks and see if over heating was the cause ? hint hint.
Ron
1. Where the pedestals the correct ones ? where they the correct hieght ?
2. Where the heads milled the proper hieght by CHI ?
All this would have contributed to the incorrect geometry not just a push rod too long.
The rest of the surge and bounce theory with the wrong retainers caused the overheating on the shaft and rocker arm potentially combined with the bolt caught on the last thread ... too bad we didnt still have a broken rocker for it to be tested for stress cracks and see if over heating was the cause ? hint hint.
Ron
Push rods were too long and didnt allow enough thread purchase on the adjuster screw ..they were caught on the last threads and tore the top of the rocker off .. if you look the bottom threads are still in the rocker.