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Hello all. I'm going to ask the dreaded "what size wheels should I buy" question. I've went through countless archived threads and I can't find the info or feedback I'm looking for. I need info/opinions on wheel sizing from owners of very lowered narrow body cars. I'll probebly be running 17 inch rear and 16 inch fronts because they seem to fill the wheel wells better,but I'm open to suggestions. Again,I plan on really lowering the car so that the wheels tuck up inside the fenders.If anybody has done this,any thoughts would be appreciated. BTW, I'm going to have a set of really nice etoile rims for sale soon (16 front, 17 rear). Any ideas what their worth? Thanks in advance for any input.
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The chassis of mid-engine cars like the Pantera are designed around very specific parameters, and the chassis behavior (balance) can be very sensitive to how it is set-up. The designers (in this case none other than Gian Paolo Dallara) leave very little room for "customizing, experimentation or improvement” because they designed the chassis to explore the limits of performance from its inception. It would be counter-productive for a person such as myself to assume they could improve upon the engineering of someone with the credentials of a designer such as Dallara. A mid-engine sports car chassis is therefore not a crude apparatus like the chassis of a 1960’s era muscle car or Mustang.

All the various aspects of chassis design and chassis componentry impact each other, and must work in harmony. Therefore from the perspective of Pantera International there are several topics, including the topic of wheel size, that dove tail into the larger topic of chassis set-up. Its important to conceptualize how these things interact with each other before we go about altering them.

Before getting started there's one thing I must point out. North American Pantera owners and enthusiasts are not accustomed to seeing the Pantera sit as low to the ground as it was originally intended to sit. They're accustomed to seeing it sitting high, like it was on stilts.




Preparation

Tires:

The front tires should be about 24.0 to 25.0 inches in diameter. Tire diameter affects appearance due to the way in which the diameters of the tires match or vary from the arch of the fender wells. Tire diameter also impacts ground clearance. The rear tires should be about 2 inches greater in diameter than the front, plus or minus a quarter inch. But never more than 27 inches diameter.

The 1971 and 1972 Panteras (Pre-L) were set-up for a tire combination having a difference of 1.7 inches between the OD of the front and rear tires. The later standard body Panteras (i.e. the L-model Panteras, the European GTS versions, the North American GTS versions and the Group 3 versions) were set-up for a tire combination having a difference of 2.3 inches between the OD of the front and rear tires.

If your Pantera is equipped with shocks lacking ride height adjustment (such as the OEM shocks or the red body Koni shocks) then as the difference in front tire to rear tire OD diminishes the front of the car will sit higher in relation to the rear, as the difference in tire OD increases the front of the car will sit lower in relation to the rear.

If your Pantera is equipped with shock absorbers having adjustable spring pre-load, and you adjust the vehicle’s ride height to achieve a level chassis, then as the difference in front tire to rear tire OD diminishes the front wheel wells will “sit-over” the tops of the front tires a bit, and the front of the car will ride a bit lower. As the difference in front tire to rear tire OD increases the gap between the front wheel arch and the tops of the front tire will increase, and the front of the car will ride a bit higher.

In preparation of adjusting the chassis the various chassis components should be in known good condition:

• Control arm bushings of OEM rubber construction should be new enough that the rubber is compliant rather than hardened by age and use. If the bushings are of poly-urethane construction they should be in good condition, and they should be of the design that promotes rotation of the bushing around an inner sleeve, rather than the older type in which the eyelet of the control arm rotates around the bushing. If spherical rod ends are employed they should have no play.

• Ball joints should be tight, they should have no excessive play, they should move freely as the suspension moves up and down or as the front tires turn left or right. The rubber boots should have no rips or tears.

• The difficult job of adjusting front wheel camber is much easier with the addition of camber adjusters (aka camber locks) to the front upper ball joints. The adjusters prevent upper ball joint slippage too.

• The bushings attaching the rear suspension vertical supports (i.e. the hub carriers or uprights) to the lower rear control arms should have no play in them, and should operate smoothly as the suspension moves up and down. It’s not uncommon to find these bushings having excessive resistance to motion (i.e. friction) or to be seized tight.

• The steering rack should be in good condition, the rack bushing should be tight, and there should be no unwanted play. The rubber boots should have no rips or tears.

• The tie-rod ends should be tight, no play.

• The anti-sway bar pivot bushings, those located in the middle of the bars attaching the bars to the chassis, should be in good condition. This is a good application for replacement bushings made of poly-urethane.

• The method in which both anti-sway bars attach to the lower control arms is very poor; the attachment has an insufficient range of motion. Improved attachment hardware utilizing spherical ball ends is available, and highly recommended. Poly-urethane bushings have less range of motion than the OEM rubber bushings; therefore the use of poly-urethane bushings for attachment of the anti-sway bars to the control arms is discouraged. Such attachment has been known to snap anti-sway bars in two, break attachment straps, etc.

• Front wheel bearings should be cleaned, lubricated and properly adjusted.

• Rear wheel bearings should be tight. If they are not tight they should be replaced (an improved wheel bearing kit is available from Panteras by Wilkinson). The axles should be inspected for signs of damage caused by spinning within the rear wheel bearings (they should be a press fit) and the axles should be repaired if they have been so damaged.

• The shock absorbers should be in good condition; old shock absorbers should be rebuilt or replaced.

If your Pantera is a concourse car, and original looking shocks are desired a set of original black “Ariston” shocks (manufactured by Koni) or a set of red body aftermarket Koni shocks can be rebuilt and painted which ever color is appropriate for the particular car (early North American Panteras were equipped with black Ariston shocks, later North American Panteras were equipped with blue “Telecar” shocks). The Ariston and Koni shocks are the only rebuild-able shocks designed to use the factory springs.

The dampening of the OEM shocks and red body Koni shocks is best combined with tires having taller sidewalls, such as tires designed for 15” wheels or 16” wheels.

If OEM style shocks and springs are employed the ride height shall not be adjustable other than removal of the spacer installed by Ford. If you prefer to use the chassis as it was set-up by Ford then we encourage you to do so. However removal of the spring spacers installed in North American Panteras does not impair the Pantera’s performance or make it dangerous. It lowers the ride height of the vehicle to its intended (European) setting and improves chassis performance. Removal of the spacers is recommended for performance minded owners.

If your Pantera is NOT a concourse car, then replacement of the OEM shocks with aftermarket shock is a wiser choice. See the note regarding shocks in the “improvement” section.




Improvements

If you prefer to use the chassis as it was set-up by Ford then we encourage you to do so. If you wish to explore the performance built into the chassis, and/or the performance to be gained with modern tires and shock absorbers then we encourage the following modifications.

• Modern low profile tires outperform older generations of tires in every way; they outperform the tires designed for the 15” wheels when the cars were new, and they outperform the tires designed 25 years ago when 17” wheels first entered the scene. We suggest 225/40R18 or 245/35R18 front tires combined with 285/35R19 rear tires as a good modern tire set for the Pantera.

• The OEM shocks are only recommended for tires designed for wheels of 15 inches or 16 inches in diameter. The stiffer sidewalls of modern low-profile tires require shocks that operate with less friction and are designed with improved dampening characteristics. Modern gas filled shock absorbers having adjustable dampening and adjustable spring pre-load are a necessity for Panteras equipped with wheels larger in diameter than 16 inches. Adjustable spring pre-load is necessary if you wish to “dial-in” the ride height of the chassis.

• Aftermarket shocks equipped with adjustable spring pre-load require new coil-over springs; the diameter of the OEM springs is too large for the new shock absorbers. Spring rates for the new springs must be selected. It would be erroneous to believe the spring rates of the OEM springs will complement changes in the tires and shock absorbers; the new springs need to be firmer. Obviously the spring rates shall impact the “performance and balance” of the chassis. The faster the car is driven, the lower the car sits on its suspension, the heavier the car is, the stiffer the springs need to be.



• Ford reduced the size of the rear anti-sway bar in North American versions of the Pantera from 7/8” OD to 3/4" OD to reduce the likelihood of oversteer. The 7/8” OD bars (22mm) were installed in European Panteras however, and are available via Pantera parts vendors. Installation of a 7/8” OD rear anti-sway bar is recommended for best handling.

• Modify the upper front control arms to allow for additional caster.

Dallara originally designed 6° positive caster into the front suspension, but Ford reduced it to a dismal 3° (Pre-L) in order to slow down the response to driver input at the steering wheel and to replace the possibility for oversteer with the earlier on-set of understeer. The move to Goodyear Arriva tires in late 1972 was accompanied by a further decrease in caster, to 2-3/4°.

There is minimal provision for adjustment of the front suspension caster. It is for the biggest part built into the chassis. If the chassis is adjusted to sit level as recommended, the caster should be 2-3/4° to 3°, unless your Pantera is a push-button version or a European version.

2-3/4° to 3° of caster is not enough for stability in a sports car with such a low amount of weight over the front tires. It also diminishes the amount the front tires “lean” into a corner when they are turned. If you wish to set up the suspension for better stability, for quicker and more precise response to driver input, for improved front tire “grip” in corners (less understeer), and to restore the balance originally built into the chassis, you may want to consider increasing the front caster (reversing Ford’s changes to the front suspension). The most common method to increase front caster is to modify the upper front control arms to allow more caster adjustment. The car responds better to at least 4 degrees of positive caster. The caster setting is sensitive to the width and diameter of the tires, air pressures, chassis ride height settings, etc.

Changes in caster may impact your Panteras “bump-steer” behavior.




Adjustment

Chassis “ride height” and alignment adjustments should be made with 1/2 tank of fuel and a driver & passenger each weighing approximately 150 pounds +/- 25 pounds sitting in the seats. The tire pressure must also be adjusted to the settings you plan to use.

North American versions of the Pantera were rated for tire pressures of 28 psi front, 26 psi rear. The lower pressure for the rear tires was intended to combat “oversteer”. European versions were rated for 31 psi air pressure in the rear tires; we feel the European pressure recommendations are a good starting point for the performance minded owner. We have no control over what size tires you shall equip your Pantera with; therefore it shall be necessary for you to experiment with the tire pressures to achieve an ideal setting. That ideal setting may achieve equal wear across the tires, or equal temperatures, or balanced handling, or highest cornering speeds. It is up to you to decide what criteria you shall use to establish the ideal tire pressures for your Pantera. As you may expect, the Pantera’s handling is sensitive to tire pressure, tire width and tire diameter ... things that affect the tire’s contact patch.



(1) Rear Ride Height:

The rear ride height is adjusted using the spring pre-load adjustment of the rear shocks; it should be set so the lower rear control arms are level to the ground. This is the lowest recommended setting, providing the least amount of ground clearance, the lowest CG (center of gravity), and the best handling. The term “handling” refers to both (1) the most precise and quickest response to driver input via the steering wheel and (2) the ultimate tire grip and speed during cornering. Whereas many automobiles are “lowered” to improve handling, the Pantera was designed to be about as “low as you can go” right off the showroom floor. Of course, Ford altered the ride height of North American Panteras by installing spacers between the shock absorbers and springs. The OEM spacers were about 5/8” thick in the rear and 1/2” thick up front.

If this ride height is too low for you, and you prefer something a bit higher, you can adjust the pre-load more to raise the rear of the Pantera further, in the same manner Ford did, and with the same impact upon the vehicle’s chassis performance.

(2) Front Ride Height:

The chassis was designed to sit level, the frame rails between the axles, running along the side of the car beneath the doors, should be parallel with the ground. After setting the rear ride height, the front height is adjusted using the spring pre-load adjustment of the front shocks to achieve a level chassis. A 24 inch bubble level on the door sills can be used to “rough-in” the spring adjustments. However, measurements must be taken to make sure the ride height is equal distance to the ground at four points; i.e. front to rear on both sides of the car.

When the chassis sits level, the axis of the control arms are also level, in other word there is no anti-dive or anti-squat built into the suspension. If the chassis is set-up properly no anti-dive or anti-squat is needed, the chassis will remain level during braking and acceleration.

Changes in front ride height may impact your Panteras “bump-steer” behavior.

If the tires are the right diameters, there shall be a small gap between the OD of the rear tire and the rear fender arch, fairly even all the way around the circumference of the tire. There shall also be a "proportionally equivalent" gap between the outside of the front tire and the apex of the front fender arch. The car will sit fairly low to the ground if the rear ride height is set to achieve level rear control arms; there shall be enough ground clearance to get a floor jack under it, and clear driveways, but not much more.

(3) Alignment:

Referring to the diagram below, the “As Designed” alignment specs reflect the settings developed under the direction of Dallara. To slow the response to driver input and encourage the earlier on-set of understeer Ford reduced front camber from 1/4° to 0° while they increased front toe-in from 0” to 1/8”. Ford did not alter the rear camber settings because they did not want to do anything to reduce the grip of the rear tires in corners.

If you have no interest in deviating from Ford’s settings, then we encourage you to use them. If you wish to explore the performance built into the chassis, then we encourage you to use the “as designed” settings or perhaps the settings designated for the European GTS.



(4) Bump Steer:

Test-drive your Pantera after all these adjustments have been made. Determine if the vehicle's directional stability over bumps is satisfactory; if not then bump steer needs to be adjusted. Adjusting bump steer involves altering the height of the steering rack to achieve a mounting height where the changes in “toe” are as linear as possible during suspension deflection over bumps, rather than toe increasing or decreasing with the amplitude of suspension deflection in a non-linear way.




The chassis of #6018 has not been adjusted to accommodate the diameters of the new tires & wheels; the rear of the car is set-up properly but it sits a little too low in the front. See how the front wheel arches overlap the front tires a bit, the previous set of tires were only 1 inch difference between front and rear OD (24.7" OD front, 25.7" OD rear). The new tires have a front to rear difference in OD of 1.7 inches (24.7" OD front, 26.4" OD rear). Once the chassis is adjusted things will look better. There's no denying however this car sits low to the ground ... as designed.

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Last edited by George P
I lowered my car "just enough" with Precision Proformance Double Adjustable Aluminum Billet Shocks. I did not go as low as you are suggesting or as George has done.

Although, I do have 16" Fronts and 17" Rears and the car is lowered. I elected not to go back to my days of my lowered Monte Carlo and the scraping issues...

Dave # 3463

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Thanks for the info guys,is there a maximum recommended backspacing for the front and rear rims? The rims i'm going to buy are available in any offset I want,this is why i'm asking for input because if I screw up it will be expensive. The etoile wheels I have now fit great but very slightly protrude past the rear fenders, which would greatly limit suspesion travel if I lower it to much.
I have just been through this question with the backspacing. I have ordered wheels that are off the shelf and am awaiting shipment although I did receive one rear wheel and test fit it with an appropriately sized tire.

The below information is my best approximations based on available data and should be verified but it is a starting point.

Wheel Data
Narrow Body Hub width 61.5mm

Front OD 25"
16 or 17 x 8 backspacing 4.75in Offset 20mm 225/40R17
17 x 9 backspacing 5.25in Offset 20mm 245/40R17

Rear OD 26.5"
17 x 11 backspacing 6.0in Offset 13mm 335/35R17
18 x 10.5 6.0in Offset 19mm 295/35R18
18 x 10 6.0in Offset 25mm 275/40R18

Enkei RPF1 center bore 73mm
16 x 8 offset 15 225/50R16 OD 24.9 sect width 7.3
17 x 10 offset 18 285/40R17 OD 26.1 Sect width 11.3 (this fit great with just enough breathing room - didn't stick out to edge of fender entirely which was my goal)
These last wheels are what I am going with - $1100 for the set, I'll post pics when I have them
Last edited {1}
modok,

Why don't you use your current wheels to help you determine the backspacing you want? If you know your wheels stick out say a 1/2" too much, add that into your backspacing to move them in 1/2".

Conversely, if your wheels in the back are in 1" too far, subtract that from your wheels backspacing to move the wheel out 1".

You start to measure backspacing by placing the wheel face down. Then you run a straight edge on the outermost part of the rim at the beadseat spanning the center of the back of the wheel. You then take a tapemeasure and measure the distance from the back face/pad where the wheel mounts to the car (where the lug nuts go through) to the bottom of the straight edge. On my wheels (for a 5-S, 13" wide at the rear), this distance is 5".

Backspacing and offset are not the same thing. Offset is how far the mounting face/pad is from the center of the wheel and can be positive or negative. For instance, my same rear 13" wheel with a backspacing of 5" has a negative offset of roughly an 1 1/2" (-38.1mm) because that's how far the mounting face/pad is in from the center of the wheel. So if the mounting face/pad is further under the car than the center of the wheel, you have a negative offset. If it's closer to the outside of the car than the center, you have a positive offset. If the mounting face/pad is directly in line with the center of the wheel, you have a zero offset.

Whenever I order wheels I order them by backspacing and let them figure out what the offset is. You don't need both to order wheels, just one or the other.

If you're not sure how much farther you want to move a wheel out, make some spacers with wood in 1/2" and/or 1" increments. They don't have to be round as long as they clear the caliper, and none of the holes have to be precision. Take the wheel off, start with the spacer amount you think you want, and take it from there. You can even turn the front wheel back and forth to check clearances. I did this just by using blocks of wood that I placed between the wheel and the rotor and tightening the wheel down. It will give you the 'visual' of what the wheel will look like on the car. Just remember to subtract that amount from your current backspacing, and that's what you would order. DO NOT DRIVE THE CAR WITH WOODEN SPACERS! That could be disasterous!

If I were to move a wheel in, I'd probably want it to be flush with the wheel opening. I'd take a straight edge, put it across the wheel while on the car, and measure from the inside of the straight edge into the body along the wheel opening where I would want it to sit flush. Once you get that measurement, you can then add any amount you want to if you wanted to move the wheel further under the fender. You would then add this amount to your current backspacing to get the desired wheel placement.

All this can be easliy done with just a bit of effort on your part.

Michael
quote:
You start to measure backspacing by placing the wheel face down. Then you run a straight edge on the outermost part of the rim at the beadseat spanning the center of the back of the wheel. You then take a tape measure and measure the distance from the back face/pad where the wheel mounts to the car (where the lug nuts go through) to the bottom of the straight edge. On my wheels (for a 5-S, 13" wide at the rear), this distance is 5".


Be careful here as this is not the definition of backspacing to all wheel manufacturers. Often backspacing is from the hub center mounting surface to the tire bead flange i.e. minus the lip edge. Kodiak Motorsports has a worksheet that explains the various measurements pretty well here; Kodiak Worksheet I recommend to ask your supplier HIS definition of backspacing prior to ordering.
When I purchased 6018 it had 17" x 9" wheels on the front and 17" x 11" wheels on the rear.

The new wheels are 18" x 9" on the front and 20" x 12" on the rear.

Both sets of wheels had/have 25mm offset on the front and 12mm offset on the rear. 12mm is the max offset with 17x11 rear wheels. The 20x12 wheels could have used 19mm offset.

cowboy from hell
Last edited by George P
quote:
Originally posted by Joules5:
quote:
You start to measure backspacing by placing the wheel face down. Then you run a straight edge on the outermost part of the rim at the beadseat spanning the center of the back of the wheel. You then take a tape measure and measure the distance from the back face/pad where the wheel mounts to the car (where the lug nuts go through) to the bottom of the straight edge. On my wheels (for a 5-S, 13" wide at the rear), this distance is 5".


Be careful here as this is not the definition of backspacing to all wheel manufacturers. Often backspacing is from the hub center mounting surface to the tire bead flange i.e. minus the lip edge. Kodiak Motorsports has a worksheet that explains the various measurements pretty well here; Kodiak Worksheet I recommend to ask your supplier HIS definition of backspacing prior to ordering.


Julian,

I guess some still do it that way. It's funny that although Kodiak's worksheet says to measure to the beadseat, they made the outer rims for my front wheels and said they needed the measurement to the rear flange to get it correct. When I was shopping for my wheels in the past few years, they all said to measure to the outermost flange for backspacing.

There is an easy solution. Measure to both the outermost flange and the beadseat. The difference in most cases should be about 1/4" (however, on my Kodiak front outers, it's 1/8", which is inconseqential in my case because it's on the outside). Once you choose which wheel manufacturer you want to go with, ask them which method they use to calculate their backspacing. Since you've done it both ways, just give them the one they require.

Doug M,

Your welcome. I put a lot of time and effort into getting my wheel selection and placement just right. It's my opinion that wheels make the car. How many times have we seen a dramatic difference in a cars look (any car) with just a simple wheel change? Would either of Laslo's Panteras have the same impact with stock wheels on them?

Michael
72Red > Tire Sizes on "HYPURR"

Fronts are 245/45ZR16
Rears are 335/35ZR17
Dunlop SP Sport 8000 Tires

Wheels are Pantera East Campy Clones by Boyd Coddington. As for offset etc, I have no clue. My item # on the Invoice is PE8875 if that helps.

And another thing; red exhaust tips are cool...

(not really has anything to do with anything though...)

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Be carefull on how low you go.
I worked on this car and it is a pain. You have to drive it up on 2x4's to get either a jack or a lift under it.If you own a Pantera for any length of time you will need to jack it up. It bottoms frequently either on bumps dips etc. The rear camber is out badly as it is on the other end of the curve and needs the adjustable longer arm$ to bring in. I told the guy it would be better to pick it up just a little to cure all these problems and the answer was"it wouldn't look cool."
My Pantera will not be this low.

This car has the following:
Wilkinson wheels. 18's rear 17's front.
Hall springs on factory shocks.

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George and Brooke have provided excellent advice here as far as the control arms mods. There is a huge difference in driving a car that has been lowered properly and has big rubber all around and that has all the castor you can get in the front and proper camber in the rear. Getting Johnny Woods or some one to relocate where the balljoints mount in your front upper control arms will make the car so much more enjoyable to drive. Before you take the car in for alignment make sure you have a spacer added between the steering rack and the car also. I think Marlin was making the shims and selling them cheap.Do a search for that topic on this board. These little tuning tricks make all the difference.
quote:
Originally posted by larryw:
Pat Mical showed his adjustable upper A arms during a visit to his shop recently. Amazing adjustment capabilities. Nicely engineered, not cheap.

I think Adams Hudson had them put in his car.

Pat has some neat stuff in that shop.


Fortunately the exceptional quality of Pat's products warrant the extra $$$.
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