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The new Audi/VW W12 engine looks to be an interesting engine. 12 cylinders, lightweight, compact, and powerful. It would easily fit in a Pantera's engine compartment. I would rather use this engine over the Ford 4.6/5.4.

The things that worry me about this engine is being able to use the factory computer or would I be able to use a custom ECM. This engine uses a throttle-by-wire system. Do you think it would be easier to make the Pantera's throttle pedal electric or fabricate a way to use a throttle cable on the engine?

Also this engine only comes in automatic, would it be possible to fabricate a manual trans flywheel and bellhousing adapter?

I really hope someone does this conversion before I do. I will keep researching it though.
Everything else should be pretty easy?
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I suspect this swap will remain out of reach for most, since the engine is available only in current Euro luxury cars, so it will be extremely expensive &/or rare. Fabbing a series of adapters won't solve the design problem of most automatic-only engines: no thrust bearing surface to absorb the fwd loading of the crank from an added clutch's reaction forses, but as the motor's so new, I'm not familiar with it. As far as adapting the brainbox to std Pantera wiring, with more money, anything's possible. In 10 or so years, as engines become available, maybe- if your local Smog Lords and your bank balence allow it.
Okay, first let me clarify. Yes I am crazy, but to own a Pantera I would have to be! Second the new VW Phaeton will be available in the US and use the W12. I say give it a few years to hit the junkyards and Voila! Third this engine is designed to use manual trannies as seen in this article with a ZF six speed http://www.canadiandriver.com/previews/vw_w12.htm

Here are some comments about this 5000 lb car.
The Phaeton VW lent me was powered by VW's new W12. It's the world's most compact 12-cylinder engine, developing 420bhp at 6000rpms. The 6.0-litre power plant also generates a massive 406ft lbs of torque at 3000rpms. That's enough low-down grunt to propel Volkswagen's biggest ever car from zero to sixty miles per hour in a shade over six seconds, or, if you prefer, up to an electronically limited 155mph.


Even if this does not become a popular engine choice for the Pantera it still may be one of the best.

[This message has been edited by madguy (edited 10-02-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by KARL C:
Mike is right. I have a Lawnmower that sounds better than those Wimpy Vipers


Maybe you guys should reserve judgment on how the W12 sounds until you actually hear it. Remember this is a fairly new design, and who really knows how it will sound without cats and a short exhaust.
Really interesting, but the last article said the design dictates about 13 mm wide connecting rod ends. They go on to say the power is limited by connecting rod size, and it will never be a racing engine.

Seems like it's not worth much to have an engine limted to a little over 400 HP.
quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
Really interesting, but the last article said the design dictates about 13 mm wide connecting rod ends. They go on to say the power is limited by connecting rod size, and it will never be a racing engine.

Seems like it's not worth much to have an engine limted to a little over 400 HP.



Actually @ 450hp and about 150lbs lighter than a cleveland it should propel the Pantera to sub 4.5 second 0-60 times.

It may not be a racing engine but it is used in that VW supercar that bested the corvette ZR-1s long standing endurance speed record. They got 600hp out of that one!

This definately needs more research!
Boy oh boy, what a posting.
And Iam only 2 years to late.

I have to tell u all tho...(if anyone ever reads ever this..........) that out here in the 'outback' of South Africa we are the Kings of Motor Transplants, not just hearts. This due of course to us being geographicaly and politicaly 'cut-off' from the rest of the so-called civilized world for very many years. Therefore u find excellent Hybrids being built here by the motor manufacture factories, not just 'back yard specials,': like the Ford Capri Perrana which hammered ALL cars in its class,(...for many years, until Chevy took up the challange and entered the fray....) in International Racing events staged here over many years like the world famous "Nine Hour" Endurance race run at the Kyalamy Race track here in jo'burg. This FORD did so well on the race tracks & streets that it forced Chevy to come up with an answer: the mighty 'Little-Chevy' Can Am Firenza. Boy, was that racing.
The Ford Capri was of course the off-shoot of the enormously suceesfull racing Capri's of British and German racing fame: the most competitive being the Capri Cologne's running derivatives of the smaller but higher-tech 2.8 V6 compared to the old 'boat-anchor' brit. 3 liter Essex V6. The Ford factory constructors here threw the running-gear away and 'dropped in' the hottest Boss 302 V8's with steel innards etc., the excellent "rock-crusher' Ford top-loader box and found brakes that they could fit in behind the massive wheels. The Perrana was born. And boy did it bustle along nicely. In fact so nicely that there was nothing to touch it. Nothing. Untill: the Can Am's from Chev. The War was on. In went the super strong Z 28 302 motor mated to a close-ratio Muncie 4-speed and big brakes sourced from Ford Australia.
This was racing everyone wanted to see and was starved of here in little old SoufAfrika.
I never missed one of these "Nine Hour" races. It was like our own Le Mans. Racers came from all over the world to compete. Divid Piper brought his 'mob' with Cobras, GT40's, Ferarri Dino's, Lola's, Chevron,s etc. The grid was a veritable Mind-Frig for a kid like me, besotted with the smell of Castrol R hanging in the air and the sound of howling V12 & V8's screaming around the track; Kyalamy fast became the favourite track and the Nine Hour became the favourate event of the year. Magic.
Remember that this was 'off-season' for every one from the Northern Hemisphere so South Africa became the place to be. Try out new set-ups on old cars or try out new ones. And the generous, car-mad, hospitable people and 300 days of sunshine all contributed to S. A. being the Place to Race. And gave us South Africans World Champions to come.........another story......
We were no longer starved of decent Motor Sport.
The likes of the brit. Willmet Racing Team brought out the storming 7liter Ford Galaxy's
and alot of the big names came out to play. Mike Haliwood was here a lot. Lord Louth with the giant-killing Lotus Cortina.... the list is endlesss.......
But to come back to the two American Mini-Monsters: the Ford Capri & the Chevy Can Am's,
( of which I bought & raced # 000022, still running strong with nothing to touch it on a tight track.) Suitable, inexpensive prospective race-cars or Hybrids appeared every where in S.A. - with all sorts of motors being forced and persuade to fit into small engine bays.
What fun & games. ( Just last week a kid in a Fiat5oo blew me away trafic-lite to traficlite.
He was running a Alfa 1700 all-ally twincam, AlfaSud, horisontally opposed engine and transaxel, brakes, suspension all amid-ship in the tiny 500, all 1000lbs. of it. Handles vry well he says, looks dead standard & he says he 'dropped-it-in' over a couple of weakends. ( Cost him zip. - well almost... ) Anyhow, I could go on for hours about the interesting hybrids here....my old Ford Cortina with 2000 liter Cosworth BDA 16 valve & Lotus close-ratio box which was my everyday runabout for many years.- Iam at present dropping-in,( theres that overused term again....) spare Ferrari 308 quad-cam V8 motor, transaxel clip with susp. & brakes into a stretched Fiat 600 body. Running 308 front suspn. & brakes plus steering rack.. Should be fun. Will run it on the street here, ( no propblem with the law here regarding this sort of thing,: I ran a race-ready GT 40 replica in around Jo'burg here for 7 years, was only stopped once, - the Fuzz wanted a closer look.....plus two Pantera's, over the last 10 years, no plates up front ever, race pipes etc.)
And finally to answer the ? in hand so to speak : In the Land of Chevy I urge u to drop in a Chevy into your Pantera. No really. Even our HERO 'Capo' Alesandro deTomaso did it,- and if he hadnt married that rich american chick he proberly would have put them into the Pantera's as well....well maybe not,...he used Fords well before trying the Chevy route.....This route is so succesfull, u will not believe it. I know,- I have driven four of these conversions... - But, of course u will all know about Chevy's.:-Lighter, smaller dimensionally, readilly available etc., fits in engine bay with pace to spare for important thigs like 180 exhaust system and the ineveitable changing of plugs.... If any of u want to see pics. say so . My mate down the road has 4, yes four Pantera's in his garage with Chevies in every one. One a lightened ( carbon-fibre bodied ) GT5 with a lightly modded Chevy small block running low boost B&M roots-type Blower on top,-still can close the engine comparment, it sits so neat & low., dry-sump oiling system and there has being nothing to catch him around Kyalamy for awhile now.- The low, bottom-end grunt coming out of the turns is to be experienced. He used to run rings around my quick GT 40 to my dismay. Then i built my new toy: a faithful copy of one of the 6x deTomaso factory racing Pantera GRP.4's. Has taken me all of 7 years to find all the correct parts.
( No Chevy bits.....)- Have managed to get The Beast down in weight a bit thru using this friends carbon body bits but am still struggling against the inherent high weight of the orignal 351C motor, which as we all should know is actually a short-stroked BIG block.

To see instantly see pics of this GRP.4 of mine plus newley built 'trick' motor on engine-stand, (now fitted at last with all the right bits )....go to P.I. TECHNICAL FORUM, page 13 under ALAN B's posting ; 180 DEGREE HEADERS. Also pics of our new venture : a space-framed, 2100lbs Pantera Replica with all up to date Hi-Tech eguipment sadlly lacking in the days of old Alesandro, also small wooden scale-model we built long before we went to the CAD computors....
So here it is,- no new fangled, W configured 'wunderkind' motors with valves that cost more than a complete C5 motor:- USE your own, all ally pushrod motor available right there in your own back yard. Shame on u all....for not sussing it....immediately.
What did Saleen use for its + $400.000, Enzo - thumping SuperCar,:- ( See CAR & DRIVER vol. 49, # 1 2003 page 42. or e-me for fax thereof..)- not any of the exotic motors mentioned, but a basic Ford 427W based pushrod, single-carbed V8 motor, virtually the same as our wonderful Host's, P.I.'s 427 'crate motor' which has to be the best deal in town at $10.000 all in. - ..( i dont work for them ), in fact i tried to buy one from them, but was not successful,....so built my own.
Cheers, tai
P.S.- Please let us know what u ended up going with.
My E-male : agna @ mweb.co.za
that would be an expensive conversion that would not add to the value or desireability of your Pantera, and would not give you any more horsepower than what you can have with a few mods to your 351C.

think of parts, modifying, information, etc. Sounds like a headache to me.

You can get 500 bhp from the 351C (377C) these days for the price of a stroker kit, aluminum heads & a roller cam. Thats too easy.

George
There seems to be lots of examples of very nice 4.6L installations. I don't believe the ECM is an issue, and although I haven't seen it, throttle converstion can't be that difficult in either direction.
Seems to me the VW V12 will have the same issues during converstion but what's worse is I'll have to be able read German too. Smiler
The 5L 4 cam makes high HP and will be available soon, check the internet.

Tai Krige post is intriguing, I would like to see the Chev. powered Pantera's If it wasn't for the decreasing value aspect I would consider that route.
Last edited by jon3613
okey dokey. my yellow beast started as a 351c. currently, 398c stroked and rolled to 550 hp. i think that is enough. don't you? no overheating (she runs at 180f in traffic). as a matter of fact NO problems at all. by the by, easy fixes and cheap (if something were to go wrong) after all she is all american. best of luck.

yellow beast
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