A question regarding the need for fuel additives.

What heads?  Old / modern...

any mods on the Old heads?

...it is all about the valve seats..and consequences...

Matthias

351 Cleveland four bolt main block honed and decked
Edelbrock Cleveland aluminum heads that were ported and polished by Keith Craft Inc in
Arkansas
Custom solid roller cam shaft and roller lifters by Comp Cams
“Diamond” teflon coated forged aluminum pistons
Forged seat crank shaft
Ceramic coated headers and exhaust
Original ANSA swept mufflers
Aluminum Edelbrock water pump
Wilson Manifolds custom aluminum manifold for port fuel injection
FAST EFI 2.0 fuel injection system, dual sync distributor, tuneable MSD ignition
Custom fuel system with surge tank, Aeromotive fuel pump and solid state Aeromotive fuel pump
controller
Fuel system plumbed with braided lines and AN fittings

i'm still waiting for Reliable carriers to deliver the Pantera to me but I am not in touch with the PO

Thanks Matthias

modern Heads...nice  ..no need to do anything they have hardened seats

well if compression (dynamic) is say HIGH you need to look into a different dimension...there is a  nice wite up by George on gas oct match to compression..in case it might go into ADDITIVE direction ..or dif gas..

( I am lucky we have 98 oct..super+..so a free ride but more cost ..)

Matthias

i can find 93 Octane here is Southern USA.No additives necessary..Great

The valve seat material is not the issue. Hardened valve seats would be very rough on stainless steel valves. The "rumor" that leaded fuel cushioned valve seats was a myth propagated by the petroleum industry. As far as I know the manufacturers of aftermarket alloy heads utilize cast iron seats. The only better material would be beryllium copper, but that is more expensive so as far as I know the head manufacturers use iron instead. NOT hardened steel.

Hopefully who ever assembled the engine limited dynamic compression to 8.0:1 or less because the cylinder walls may not survive anything more than that under WFO operation. With 8.0:1 dynamic compression the engine should be capable of operating on 91 octane US/Canadian fuel.

93 octane US/Canadian gas is equivalent (or close to equivalent) to fuel rated 98 octane internationally, whereas 91 octane US/Canadian fuel would be rated 95 octane internationally.

So the question is, what's the dynamic compression. If the car comes with a list of parts that went into the engine we could probably figure it out fairly closely (piston part numbers, connecting rod length, crankshaft stroke, camshaft part number, head gasket part number).

IF the engine was assembled by Keith Craft they'll have documentation on file. There is usually a number stamped somewhere that Keith Craft placed there for future identification.

You can also experiment by filling the tank with  91 octane gasoline 5 gallons at a time … operate the car to see if it starts pinging … if not then add 5 more gallons of 91 octane. Keep doing that until the tank is 100% 91 octane. If it doesn't ping then you're good to use 91 octane..

matg posted:

modern Heads...nice  ..no need to do anything they have hardened seats

well if compression (dynamic) is say HIGH you need to look into a different dimension...there is a  nice wite up by George on gas oct match to compression..in case it might go into ADDITIVE direction ..or dif gas..

( I am lucky we have 98 oct..super+..so a free ride but more cost ..)

Matthias

 

 

You have 98 RON

I want to move there

Standard Premium here is 93. Sunoco is still posted as 94.

panteradoug posted:

Standard Premium here is 93. Sunoco is still posted as 94.

Jeez..I remember Sunoco 240 / 260.

It's great to have this Community muster up these car memories

the RON number is the higher between RON & MON, average a 98 RON fuel with it's MON number to find AKI or R+M/2 and it's in the low 90's

just pump premium

The RON measurement (International standard) for octane shall always be 4 or 5 greater than the averaged octane calculation  for the same fuel.

US/Canadian     ………….     International
(RON + MON) ÷ 2    …….     (RON)

85 ……………………….…………… 90
87 ………………………...…..…….  91/92
89 ……………………………………. 93
91 …………………………...………. 95
92 …………………………...………. 96
93 ……………………………………. 97
94 ………………………………...…. 98
95 ………………………...…………. 100

Pump gas rated 91 octane in the US and Canada is what was once referred to as premium pump gas.  Pump gas rated 93 to 94 octane in the US and Canada is what was once referred to as "super premium" pump gas.

The 1970/1971 versions of the 351C 4V manufactured in the US were built to operate on “premium fuel” off the showroom floor. The two versions of the 351C 4V with the highest compression ratios, the 1970 351C 4V and the 1971 Boss 351 both had dynamic compression ratios of 7.6:1.

The Cleveland cylinder walls are nominally 0.160 inch thick (roughly 5/32 inch, or 4mm), which isn’t very thick. The actual cylinder wall thickness of any given block will be thinner than 0.160 inch in places due to core shift during the casting process. When pushed beyond their limits the Cleveland cylinder walls crack. 

Thanks george

George P posted:

The valve seat material is not the issue. Hardened valve seats would be very rough on stainless steel valves. The "rumor" that leaded fuel cushioned valve seats was a myth propagated by the petroleum industry. As far as I know the manufacturers of aftermarket alloy heads utilize cast iron seats. The only better material would be beryllium copper, but that is more expensive so as far as I know the head manufacturers use iron instead. NOT hardened steel.

Hopefully who ever assembled the engine limited dynamic compression to 8.0:1 or less because the cylinder walls may not survive anything more than that under WFO operation. With 8.0:1 dynamic compression the engine should be capable of operating on 91 octane US/Canadian fuel.

93 octane US/Canadian gas is equivalent (or close to equivalent) to fuel rated 98 octane internationally, whereas 91 octane US/Canadian fuel would be rated 95 octane internationally.

So the question is, what's the dynamic compression. If the car comes with a list of parts that went into the engine we could probably figure it out fairly closely (piston part numbers, connecting rod length, crankshaft stroke, camshaft part number, head gasket part number).

IF the engine was assembled by Keith Craft they'll have documentation on file. There is usually a number stamped somewhere that Keith Craft placed there for future identification.

You can also experiment by filling the tank with  91 octane gasoline 5 gallons at a time … operate the car to see if it starts pinging … if not then add 5 more gallons of 91 octane. Keep doing that until the tank is 100% 91 octane. If it doesn't ping then you're good to use 91 octane..

The Pantera will be arriving soon.

The 1st thing I want to do is an Oil Change and Transmission Fluid Change.

Any recommendation on what Brand ,Viscosity. for bothI 

Thanks in advance

Motor oil: Valvoline 10W30 VR1 synthetic

Gearbox lube: 80W-90 GL4 gear oil was originally recommended. The lube needs to be compatible with the conflicting needs of limited slip differentials AND synchronizer rings. There is very little brass, bronze, or copper in the gearbox, that is a minor concern. The synchronizers are made of iron (unless they've been replaced with brass). The ring and pinion are spiral-bevel cut gears, not hypoid gears.

Petroleum based:
PennGrade 1 Classic Multi-Purpose GL-4 SAE 80W90
Castrol Axle Limited Slip 80W-90 Gear Oil (GL-5)

Although Castrol gearbox oil is rated GL-5 nobody reports any problems associated with its use. The consensus is that what's most important is changing the oil annually.

Synthetic based:
Redline MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil
Redline 75W90NS GL-5 Gear Oil

Some guys have good luck with synthetic oils in the gearbox, others find the synthetics tend to leak (drip) from all the seams between castings and from the seals, sometimes the leaks stopped dripping after a period of time, once the seals had a chance to soften and the gaskets a chance to swell, etc. When the drips haven’t stopped owners have returned to petroleum based oils, and the leaks stopped leaking.

One person has reported that Lloyd Butfoy advised him against synthetic lube, whereas Les Gray is adamant regarding the use of Redline 75W90NS GL-5 Gear Oil. These are both gentlemen whose advice I respect.

How much gear oil is required for the gearbox oil change ?

I have ordered a set of service manuals ...so hopefully they will answer a lot of questions

I've owned Italian Exotics in the past but nothing else is like a Pantera

calfornia only sells ethanol blends I believe, The alcohol blends are to avoided!Even if it has the  # you want!

From NYC but now in Atlanta.

I'm trying to locate the nearest Sonoco for the 94 octane.

I am curious as to how much Gear Oil is required to do a ZF service.

Transaxle should take 3.75 quarts.

John

thrillrider posted:

From NYC but now in Atlanta.

I'm trying to locate the nearest Sonoco for the 94 octane.

I am curious as to how much Gear Oil is required to do a ZF service.

2060 Peachtree Rd, Atlanta, GA 30309

jb1490 posted:

Transaxle should take 3.75 quarts.

John

3.5 quarts is think better .

they recommand 3, 4 liter , but thats a little overfill say's my experience .

Last times I fill the ZF 's whit 3,25 liter.

Simon

panteradoug posted:

thrillrider posted:

From NYC but now in Atlanta.

I'm trying to locate the nearest Sonoco for the 94 octane.

I am curious as to how much Gear Oil is required to do a ZF service.

2060 Peachtree Rd, Atlanta, GA 30309

Hello Fellow Pantera Georgian

Thanks

Any suggestions for Wilwood Brake Fluid change / Clutch fluid change ?