It doesn't matter what you do, people will always have negative comments.
A guy has 15 cars…"why does he need 15 cars?" And the commenter has 3 cars, so that is just the perfect amount.
A guy has an 8000' house…"he doesn't need a house that big" And the commenter lives in a 2500' house, which is the perfect size.
A guy has a certain size of tire…" why do you need bigger than that?" And the commenter has the perfect size…
A guy buys a 50' boat….
I see it everywhere now. It was quite rare on this forum years ago, but now its more common.
Will ( sociopath)
But Will, why did you take that beautiful yellow stock-looking Pantera and RUIN it by adding the fake flares, big wheels, polished engine and 180° headers? Oh yeah, because you're a sociopath... 
Or, was it because that's the kind of car you WANTED to drive? Regardless of authenticity, it is one of the nicest Panteras I’ve seen anywhere.
For what my .016$ is worth, this is a good conversation to have, as long as everyone understands that nobody's opinion is "true" except in their own case, and from their own viewpoint. Many good points are being raised here.
I don't mind people modifying their cars at all, but to me, some look fantastic (Will's car jumps to mind) and some look horrendous (that white thing Garth posted is an eyesore — to me). I always respect the rights of people to do as they wish as long as it doesn't harm others. Does someone modifying a Pantera harm someone who doesn't alter theirs? I don't really think so, but if it does, the damage was already done years ago — likely long before any of us bought our cars at a discount because of them. One could argue that “ugly” harms others, but we are all free to look away. And in some cases, “ugly” just makes “pretty” look beautiful.
I completely understand those who feel a need to preserve an original and un-touched example of an important artifact, and indeed I appreciate them doing that. However I don't think people should be so vocal and critical of someone for making a few more changes than they did. Any deviation from "factory original" is a change. Period. Bolt-on or not. Either you wish to honor the exact car that was produced, or you want to perfect and improve it in some greater or lesser way. For some that is 2% deviation, and for some that is 98%. For most of us, it is somewhere in between. Unless I drive a car that is 100% original, I think it would be wrong for me to be too critical of one that is modified a few % more than mine is.
I had my own struggle with this debate, having a largely original Pantera (well, when I bought it anyway). It looked OK, but not "great" and I proceeded to rebuild and lower the suspension, alter the cooling system, add wider wheels (10" Campys), a few Hall components (air cleaner, valve covers etc.) and “improve” it. I don’t care about the investment value at all. I do care that what I see when I walk into my garage makes me happy and looks exactly the way I want it to. Because I, like many others, had the “itch” to do some modifying of my own, I acquired a second Pantera. It was already quite modified from original (no body mods) and I am continuing to have fun creating my own “super-Pantera” with it. I NEVER hear a negative word from a passing stranger when they encounter the car. It looks fantastic and makes people smile — especially me. And it gives me a tangible way to explore my own skills and design/mechanical abilities, which is much more fun than preserving the original factory applied dirt on a “perfect” original car.
I also own a GT40 replica. The highest form of vehicular heresy is to drive a “fake”, or even have one in your “collection”. But I am not a collector. I am a car guy, and I like having and driving (yeah, my friends are laughing at that) cool beautiful cars. If I was fortunate enough to own an original GT40 it would be in my living room surrounded by lights. And at $5M+, probably rarely ever see the road. I can happily drive my fake anywhere, park anywhere and even ram it into other vehicles (sorry Denis) without being too concerned about damaging it. Same goes for people with Group4 Pantera clones vs. original cars.
So, to Blaine: Thanks for starting this interesting thread. Others: I enjoy and value your perspectives. Mikael: I’m a 1, 2, 3, maybe a 4, for myself, but am really glad that 5 and 6 exist because if everyone was a 1 or 2, we would be just like all those red Ferraris at Concorso — Boring.
Mark
Or, was it because that's the kind of car you WANTED to drive? Regardless of authenticity, it is one of the nicest Panteras I’ve seen anywhere.For what my .016$ is worth, this is a good conversation to have, as long as everyone understands that nobody's opinion is "true" except in their own case, and from their own viewpoint. Many good points are being raised here.
I don't mind people modifying their cars at all, but to me, some look fantastic (Will's car jumps to mind) and some look horrendous (that white thing Garth posted is an eyesore — to me). I always respect the rights of people to do as they wish as long as it doesn't harm others. Does someone modifying a Pantera harm someone who doesn't alter theirs? I don't really think so, but if it does, the damage was already done years ago — likely long before any of us bought our cars at a discount because of them. One could argue that “ugly” harms others, but we are all free to look away. And in some cases, “ugly” just makes “pretty” look beautiful.
I completely understand those who feel a need to preserve an original and un-touched example of an important artifact, and indeed I appreciate them doing that. However I don't think people should be so vocal and critical of someone for making a few more changes than they did. Any deviation from "factory original" is a change. Period. Bolt-on or not. Either you wish to honor the exact car that was produced, or you want to perfect and improve it in some greater or lesser way. For some that is 2% deviation, and for some that is 98%. For most of us, it is somewhere in between. Unless I drive a car that is 100% original, I think it would be wrong for me to be too critical of one that is modified a few % more than mine is.
I had my own struggle with this debate, having a largely original Pantera (well, when I bought it anyway). It looked OK, but not "great" and I proceeded to rebuild and lower the suspension, alter the cooling system, add wider wheels (10" Campys), a few Hall components (air cleaner, valve covers etc.) and “improve” it. I don’t care about the investment value at all. I do care that what I see when I walk into my garage makes me happy and looks exactly the way I want it to. Because I, like many others, had the “itch” to do some modifying of my own, I acquired a second Pantera. It was already quite modified from original (no body mods) and I am continuing to have fun creating my own “super-Pantera” with it. I NEVER hear a negative word from a passing stranger when they encounter the car. It looks fantastic and makes people smile — especially me. And it gives me a tangible way to explore my own skills and design/mechanical abilities, which is much more fun than preserving the original factory applied dirt on a “perfect” original car.
I also own a GT40 replica. The highest form of vehicular heresy is to drive a “fake”, or even have one in your “collection”. But I am not a collector. I am a car guy, and I like having and driving (yeah, my friends are laughing at that) cool beautiful cars. If I was fortunate enough to own an original GT40 it would be in my living room surrounded by lights. And at $5M+, probably rarely ever see the road. I can happily drive my fake anywhere, park anywhere and even ram it into other vehicles (sorry Denis) without being too concerned about damaging it. Same goes for people with Group4 Pantera clones vs. original cars.
So, to Blaine: Thanks for starting this interesting thread. Others: I enjoy and value your perspectives. Mikael: I’m a 1, 2, 3, maybe a 4, for myself, but am really glad that 5 and 6 exist because if everyone was a 1 or 2, we would be just like all those red Ferraris at Concorso — Boring.
Mark
How about early Pantera's converted to later style GT5-GT5-S , Gr.4 ?
Simon
Simon
quote:Originally posted by Simon:
How about early Pantera's converted to later style GT5-GT5-S , Gr.4 ?
Simon
That's more my speed, if the build is done right. But these things can be tricky, where I have seen crooked or other oddball fender application...eek! For instance on the GT5S model, I love the style of that car; however two things for me: (1) the stock 351 is a bit wimpy in today's standards of performance, and (2) in CA if you upgrade your engine in any manner you better have some way of getting around the strict smog checks to register the car in respect to both visual inspection and tailpipe emission (these days that ain't so easy like in the past). The GT5S has such an exotic look, that just looking at it in my opinion almost demands at least 600HP. Same happened to me when I was considering an Aston Martin Vantage; beautiful car, but when I drove it all I thought about was "where's the beef?". Performance didn't match the exotic appearance; so I bought a couple V12 Mercedes instead. Maybe not as exotic looking, but about double the HP & torque.
So for me I like the performance to match the appearance, and of course visually I am a bling bling engine bay guy anyway, far from stock. But still, I respect an untouched original GT5S time capsule.
These very same discussions go on in other forums too, like the Mercedes forums & doing mods such as ECU performance, wheel upgrades, fender flares etc. Stock is nice, but appearance & performance upgrades go to another level. I know this isn't an MBZ forum, but for instance below is my red MBZ from stock to bigger wheels & lowering kit, and maybe eventually to wide body as shown on the black and green car (ha ha I think I need green, as it looks pretty stock, no?):
19 Inch AMG wheels before changing to 20"/21" ADV05 DC by JanDaMan, on Flickr
ADV05 Wheels by TAG by JanDaMan, on Flickr
Prior Design by JanDaMan, on Flickr
Prior Design by JanDaMan, on Flickr
I resist getting into these discussions because of my well-known mods to Judy's '72-1/2 L Pantera (92 mods so far!) All are reversible & I kept the stock parts. But in a family compromise, all but a few (Revson front spoiler, Gr-4 tail lights & 10" Campys ) are hidden under the as-delivered body. At 2675 lbs ready to drive & with 350 bhp, it runs faster than I care to drive today & handles far better than it ever did 'stock'. Those are my important factors. Others have others, as you say- J DeRyke.
DOES200,
Talking on GT5-S and 351 , you know that several GT5-S are original delivered from DT factory whit a Windsor 351 ?
a Windsor is low weight engine easy to stroke to 427Ci.
Simon
Talking on GT5-S and 351 , you know that several GT5-S are original delivered from DT factory whit a Windsor 351 ?
a Windsor is low weight engine easy to stroke to 427Ci.
Simon
You know a Ford 400 stroked to 434 with 500hp, 534lbs of Tq, 434lbs Tq at 2000 rpm limited to 5500 rpm (for durability) makes a pretty sweet combo!!
quote:Originally posted by Simon:
DOES200,
Talking on GT5-S and 351 , you know that several GT5-S are original delivered from DT factory whit a Windsor 351 ?
a Windsor is low weight engine easy to stroke to 427Ci.
Simon
Engine moders, exactly my point. Lets see a well built stroker (or engine swap) pass the stiff CA required visual inspection and emissions sniff smog test. So I was really talking about California in my comments. May be possible to do it with a hefty thumpin stroker with all the smog gismos still in tact, but I would think probably pretty rare. Anyone? For the pre 1975 smog required cars here in CA I would rather just dump in my 417 Fontana or 427 Fontana FI than deal with the smog fools of having those engines in a real GT5S. Those with real GT5S & hefty modified engines here in CA better know the judge real well in getting it out of impound or pulled from the CA crushing machine...part joke part not in that comment. However I had a 1985 Maserati Biturbo ready for the crusher for not passing smog with the CA regulators in several attempts but was able to sell it to a Florida dude, no smog requirements there.
quote:Originally posted by George P:
Gorgeous Jan
the wheels and tires made a big difference.
Thanks, but a lot of people differ on that simple change too, big fancy wheels lowered car. Same with performance on these SL V12, stock 604 HP & 740 torque just isn't enough, as the simple must have ECU upgrade gives 670 HP and 850 torque. Point being enough is never enough when it comes to body and performance mods with almost any car, so a lot of people just gots to go the extra mile pressing the limits. Just the nature of some & not others; but in the end everyone loves what they have...
I will try to keep it short but here is my 2 cents. The early Panteras are 40 odd years old which is a long time for a car to last. If a car has made it this far in a unmolested or at least near to stock configuration don't you as an owner owe it to the next generation to pass it on without imparting too much damage or change? To pass on a piece of automotive history to the future in the best possible condition you can?
Now if a car has been previously modified then fine, start the grinders. Or if you have owned that car for 20 years and again it has been modified then fine, cut away. But as stock/near stock car owners we are merely custodians now and to destroy a piece of history to make changes for what you feel like now? Especially in ten years time you will probably look back at the changes like we do at old hair styles is insane.
If you want to modify then buy a modified and change it. But if it has made it this far in relative peace, try to keep it that way.
Now if a car has been previously modified then fine, start the grinders. Or if you have owned that car for 20 years and again it has been modified then fine, cut away. But as stock/near stock car owners we are merely custodians now and to destroy a piece of history to make changes for what you feel like now? Especially in ten years time you will probably look back at the changes like we do at old hair styles is insane.
If you want to modify then buy a modified and change it. But if it has made it this far in relative peace, try to keep it that way.
The biggest thing I notice is that the next generation doesn't WANT a stock 40 year old car. What was really awesome 40 years ago is not as much today. Everything I have seen points toward the next generation wanting widebody cars with big wheels/tires. Most don't even care about performance. Im guilt free. Mine was destroyed when I bought it.
quote:I will try to keep it short but here is my 2 cents. The early Panteras are 40 odd years old which is a long time for a car to last. If a car has made it this far in a unmolested or at least near to stock configuration don't you as an owner owe it to the next generation to pass it on without imparting too much damage or change? To pass on a piece of automotive history to the future in the best possible condition you can?
Well said...
quote:Originally posted by DOES 200:
Same with performance on these SL V12, stock 604 HP & 740 torque just isn't enough, as the simple must have ECU upgrade gives 670 HP and 850 torque.
I have been working on how one could shoehorn a Mercedes V12 into a Pantera.....
quote:Originally posted by Joules:quote:Originally posted by DOES 200:
Same with performance on these SL V12, stock 604 HP & 740 torque just isn't enough, as the simple must have ECU upgrade gives 670 HP and 850 torque.
I have been working on how one could shoehorn a Mercedes V12 into a Pantera.....
Nice! Now that's "modified". These V12 Biturbo engines are built conservative for reliability too with big HP and torque from the factory, so they beg for additional performance mods. They are still very reliable with the simple ECU chip upgrade, but some even go with the Brabus upgrades to get about 900 HP & 1,000+ torque. Should be interesting in a Pantera, and I imagine sound unreal with the Pantera short pipes.