Original Car ?

I think in the long run originals will have the highest value. My Push button was about 95% original but that is just not me. So I am upgrading everything keeping all the original parts for the next owner should he or she wish to change it back.

I think of Pantera's and there owners like the out laws in Italian car shows (you know kind of like the early Harley Davidson riders) Most people choose to upgrade their cars to their personal taste and stray far away for original. I have never been to the Monterey Concourse but I'm sure Pantera's driven in look and sound a lot like the Hells Angels motorcycle club to the wine and cheese loving groups that attend this Concurso with there original Italian cars.

I'll be the first to admit that modified Panteras are often visually more exciting. I'm a closet Gp4 lover, every time I see one, I want to add the flared fenders to 6018. I love DOES200!

But......

My heart also sinks a bit when I see "another" modified Pantera. There's a part of me that respects these cars the same way a Ferrari guy respects his marque. The Ferrari guy would never consider customizing a Ferrari, they are considered works of art as is.

So I'm a confused mess! I blame the women in my past. He, he, he ...

If you're going to drive the car, you'll probably want to make a few, select upgrades. Better seats, cooling system, Koni shocks, that sort of thing. I think there are certain upgrades that are acceptable, even expected, for the majority of buyers. Upgrades that remedy the short comings of the design.

If it's going to be a show car OR an investment however, then make it a 100% concourse show car, as opposed to a wildly modified show car. I believe the guys in the business of selling these cars say an oringinal car, in TOP condition, sells the easiest.

your friend on the DTBB

I agree George. I am taking my car back to original now. I will send you pics when I get it all finished.

When I was younger i thought that Panteras were upgradable. meaning that if there was an improvement in a later model year you would retro fit those parts to your older car and bring it up to standard.I think if you are going to use your car ..it only makes sense to use 134a, Aluminum radiator, and electtronic ignition. Even high speed tires. You could leave it stock and trailer it around to shows..but what fun would that be?

LPB, everything you are saying is true. But for some the appeal of the Pnatera is the very fact that it does not have all the latest gizmoes and gadgets. These people find the thought of tuning their car from a lap top computer abohrent. There are also disadvantages with every update you listed. The new refrigerant is not as effecient as freon, just more environmentaly friendly. Aluminum radiators are more prone to negative corrosive reactions, electronic ignition is susceptable to emp. Your car can be dissabled by police in a high speed chase. If there was ever a nuclear war and you survived, your ignition module would not.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
I'll be the first to admit that modified Panteras are often visually more exciting. I'm a closet Gp4 lover, every time I see one, I want to add the flared fenders to 6018. I love DOES200!

your friend on the DTBB

You're in good company, George. All the HOT girls at the car shows love the insanely modified and flared cats.. Some of them just melt when they see a Campy replica wheel!

Seems all the fat, ugly girls are attracted to the original cars. These girls need loving too, which is why some of you NEED to keep your Panteras original.

Josh

I'll never sell my car, so anything you guys say is "Irrelevent & Immitesticle" (spelling intentional)to me! (GRIN)

Bob

I think the term original needs to be defined or standardized for one thing.
I used to know a concours judge that said original was "untouched by human hands" (his quote not mine).
One of the reasons original cars can be more desireable is because it's so difficult to get close to 100% original.
On limited production vehicles, sometimes cars one serial number away from each other are noticably different. Which one is "correct"?
The term "original" is a problem.
The Corvette people are fond of stating that there are more '67 427 435hp cars now then were ever made.
Original gets so difficult that in judging Ford Model T's the judges measure the water/coolant ratio in the radiator.
Considering the improvements in technology, who really wants to drive a completely original car except maybe in a parade?
Do you really want to max out the car on 1970 tire technology? Do you want a Concours judge sticking litmus paper in your tanks?
Where does original stop?
There haven't really been enough Panteras at Barrett-Jackson to make any kind of judgement on the car at this time.
The Pantera is still somewhat of an undescovered item. Apparently there has been some interest in the cars lately going "overseas".
I do believe that Dave Adler remarked about this as well as brisk sales and rising prices.
I seem to remember that was one of the begining indicators for the muscle cars.
Of course who is to say that whatever goes up won't come down?
I'll point out to all the 12 cylinder Ferrari's.
There was a time that the most mundane cars were hovering around $1,000,000 each. I know that isn't the case now.
I've had a lot of people say to me that they are glad that I didn't put "the flares" on the car like "everyone else" does.
With a Pantera at this point in time, that's what most people think of as a modified car.
But I do think the nature of the buyer is changing. I can see it here on the forum to some extent now.
What is true for the car today will be a little different next year I'm sure.
For now these cars are still driveable. Mint original cars are but aren't driven.
Looking at the cars that Hall modified, they aren't necessarily at the top of the desireable list.
I don't think that a Pantera will ever be a "numbers matching" car but the trend is towards "original-ish" and "stock-ish".
I am very glad that I bought when I did. There is no way that I could buy my car now for twice what I paid. I will now at least break even at this point (correcting for inflation included).
Although I bought this car with my heart.
It was a choice between a Boss 429 with 1-1/2 spare engines and the Pantera, and the B9 was half the price.
That's not he case now.

electronic ignition is susceptable to emp. Your car can be dissabled by police in a high speed chase. If there was ever a nuclear war and you survived, your ignition module would not.[/QUOTE]

DT, emp doesn't have anything to do with ED does it?

Nuclear war, what about the frozen methane? I was still working on that?

I think George hit the nail on the head. My take on this, however, is a little contrived and downright contradictory. (Old economic law states, what's good for the individual is not necessarily good for the whole.)

So, while I agree with George that stock is way better for the marque, on a personal level, I have a hot rod streak in me that says make it better where appropriate. That's why I have flames on my - oops, didn't mean to say that. What I meant to say was that I have a stock car from the outside - I even have original Arriva tires on 7 and 8 inch Campys for shows - but I have enhanced many of the mechanical areas to make the car better for driving. Nothing wild, mind you, but things that make it stronger, more reliable, safer, etc. Some examples: Porterfield brake pads, braided brake lines and a larger booster for my braking system. Sequential fuel injection uses a throttle body so that it still has the look of a carbed car. Rather than eliminate the rare radio delete plate, I mounted the radio underneath it. Redid the air conditioner to use R134a. Dramatically better but still looks and feels original for the most part.

So call me a hypocrite when I support the original look crowd! It's my car; I'm in it for the long run, I've been a Pantera owner since the beginning; I spent way more than sensible restoring mine and kept the original look; I am an active club member. I've earned the right to do whatever I dang well please.

So there!

Jeff
6559

I like to keep the stock look whatever it may be. Stock in itself for the Pantera has many looks; GTS, GT5, etc. I think that customizing the Pantera is what makes it unique. Compared to other exotics, the Pantera has the most individual differences from owner to owner that I have ever seen! The Pantera came from that factory with a need for upgrades just to make them reliable. The owners have and contiue to take that to the next level. That's what makes it interesting and exciting to see what someone will do next! There will as with any make, always be room for the completely "stock" car.

My take on it is I think in the near future a stock Pantera will appreciate to a point of reasonable value similiar to the muscle cars. But they diffinately have 70's technology in the mechanical area's.

I have been debating in my thoughts on how to proceed foward in the resto of 6476. Its a 73 L car. I ordered the steel GR4 flairs then cancelled them. Now I'm thinking of reordering them. I have the stock motor freshened up and have the XE block and Alum heads at the builder ready to go.

My fingers are itching to cut those fender wells and customize it into a GR4 with Hot motor and webers.

Decisions decisions decisions ??? what to do ?

Ron

Oh Doug. I love ya man. EMP stand for Electro-Magnetic Pulse. When a nuke goes off it sens out one hell of a big EMP. The cops have this little skateboard thing they shoot under your car and sends a real high volatge through your frame. It shorts out everything. But it will not shut down a set of pints.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
My take on it is I think in the near future a stock Pantera will appreciate to a point of reasonable value similiar to the muscle cars. But they diffinately have 70's technology in the mechanical area's.

I have been debating in my thoughts on how to proceed foward in the resto of 6476. Its a 73 L car. I ordered the steel GR4 flairs then cancelled them. Now I'm thinking of reordering them. I have the stock motor freshened up and have the XE block and Alum heads at the builder ready to go.

My fingers are itching to cut those fender wells and customize it into a GR4 with Hot motor and webers.

Decisions decisions decisions ??? what to do ?

Ron

RON< RON, I vote for a Group five treatment!! You just don't see those. IN fact the only one I know of is Dave Adlers. So if you make one of those you will have a very rare one indeed. Besides that way you will post pictures of it here and I can get a chubby.

Sorry man but me giving you a chubby is not helping me make my decision.....but DUTCHIE going out in Amsterdam has me distracted in the worst way.... you like the GR5 ? post me a pic of it. One thing is I want to do it in steel flairs.

Ron

In case someone following this thread is looking for an original-ish car, here's one that didn't sell on ebay and is probably still available.

Original Car

This car looks like a keeper!
Remember, fat girls need loving too!

I am wondering if part of the problem with the Pantera values is that it is not percieved as a muscle car.
A 70 Mach I is but a Pantera with the same engine isn't.
I would love to see them escalate to the $100,000 plus catagory.
I don't understand why an engine with so little aftermarket value (blocks for $350) have so many aftermarket heads available. That doesn't make sense because even if all of the original Panteras still exist few aluminum aftemarket heads will go in them.
No body runs Clevelands by choice these days. Windsors are the engines of choice.
There must be a market for them somewhere. (that's good).
I get the feeling that something is happening but I get a picture of a big Roulette wheel spinning with nobody wining but the house.
I bet on black, not 00.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
...I don't understand why an engine with so little aftermarket value (blocks for $350) have so many aftermarket heads available...There must be a market for them somewhere...

Australia mate!

Doesn't add up George. There are 100,000 aftermarket heads. That's more then there are people in Australia. What are the kangaroos buying them? You make it sound like every Australian owns a Cleveland, or is it a Getrag?

very popular motor in OZ. Like the SBC in this country.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Doesn't add up George. There are 100,000 aftermarket heads. That's more then there are people in Australia. What are the kangaroos buying them? You make it sound like every Australian owns a Cleveland, or is it a Getrag?

Doug
1 Our kangaroo's are very smart here and
there choice of engine is the 351 cleveland.
2 We have 20 million people here
3 The most popular cars aus have been Holdens and Fords,
as you know the most popular engine was the 351 cleveland in the Ford

Dennis

OK DU, you have as many people in all of Australia as we havein NYC.
Kangaroos are smart but have no money.
You call them Spando's and we call them Spandon'ts.
So?

JK that car is in Waldwick NJ and about 15 minutes from Suffern if anyone is interested I could take some pics and check it out for them. I mentioned it to Chris the other day when he visited.

You should post that on cars for sale.

I seen that and was looking for it the other day when one of our members here was looking for a car but I could not find that one on ebay.

Ron

That cars pictures were taken in the elementary schools parking lot ..loks like a nice car for some one.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Sorry man but me giving you a chubby is not helping me make my decision.....but DUTCHIE going out in Amsterdam has me distracted in the worst way.... you like the GR5 ? post me a pic of it. One thing is I want to do it in steel flairs.

Ron

Sorry Ron, didn't mean to turn all asexual on you like that, but group five really does something for me. As far as all steel, use whatever you want because no one makes a kit and you will have to fab it all yourself from scratch, just going by old photos. I bet Dave addler would give you pics of his car and maybe even a few measurements. I have every confidence you can fab a acar just like this one though, I have seen your work and you are talented. Think of this as your masterpiece, your undieing contribution to the Pantera community. Why build a kit car when you can make an original???
http://www.panteracars.com/grp5517.html
BTW, there was a real one, albe it wrecked on ebay a couple of weeks ago. But it had a tube frasme, which is cheating. The real one was a monocoque.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
That cars pictures were taken in the elementary schools parking lot ..loks like a nice car for some one.

I agree. Very nice car. Low bid amount ($35K) though.

----
This original stock car has been relisted on ebay, if anyone is looking.

Original car

My car has a tool kit in a leather bag under the hood ? Is this factory or some ones Grandfather tools ?

Also my car has a soft velour dask and seat centers ? Is this factory ?

Ron

I think that this car would have brought more then the high bid in person. This is a nice car.
Even if the engine needs help, the engine is the cheap part.
How can anyone buy a car without seeing it in person first?

quote:

My car has a tool kit in a leather bag under the hood

Yep, that is factory. It should have two buckle straps that hold it together when you roll it up. INside are metric wrenches and regular screw drivers, window crank and car jack. Mine has that too.

quote:

Originally posted by JK:

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
I'll be the first to admit that modified Panteras are often visually more exciting. I'm a closet Gp4 lover, every time I see one, I want to add the flared fenders to 6018. I love DOES200!

your friend on the DTBB

You're in good company, George. All the HOT girls at the car shows love the insanely modified and flared cats.. Some of them just melt when they see a Campy replica wheel!

Seems all the fat, ugly girls are attracted to the original cars. These girls need loving too, which is why some of you NEED to keep your Panteras original.

Josh

LOL! hahahaha

JK- You crack me up. No offense to the 'keep the Pantera original' crowd, but I believe you called it out correctly.

I'm a somewhat original, with updated wheels and outside mirrors. I just think that some cars I have seen are way overboard. They hardly resemble a Pantera. Why change it so much if you liked the original styling of the car to begin with.
Tom

Here is my take on the situation.Originality in the end will win out.History has shown that,and the reason is just what we have been talking about.We all want to modify are cars to are taste.That's the fun of it.In the muscle car era,the first thing we did was replace the factory wheels with Cragars or some other hot brand.I had Rockets ,because they were cheaper(used),on my '69 Mach 1.Nobody ran factory wheels,except maybe the elementry school teacher that didn't know any better.She had a six cl. anyway.I put my old wheels in the barn and forgot about them.My nephew said something to me a few years ago about the wheels,that I had forgoten about,and said they were worth some money.I said ,"do what you want with them,I have no use for them".He said thanks and sold them for $100.00 apeice.Got no kickback.WE don't think in the long term.We are all modifing are Panters to some degree.I think it's cool.We are having fun and thats what it's all about.I like the big busted blonds that drool over my car and would love me to take them for a ride.Hell yes.That's what this is all about.Mid-life is what I told my wife,and I was right.She thought it was funny,I'm glad.Most of us will do some modification to are cars,not just because we want to,but because the car does need it.In the end there will not be many origional Panteras left,and that is why they will bring the most money.This is my story and I'm sticking to it.PS The highly modified cars do bring the prettier girls.

At $20,000 everyone is doing thier own thng with the car. At $150,000, the car will be original.

quote:

PS The highly modified cars do bring the prettier girls.

Jan's DOES 200 has turned me into a believer!

Jan does 200, now that's an interesting comment, carry on!

WHAT THE HELL IS HE THINKING?????????????? He is storing a flammable liquid next to a gas water heater?? Someone better tell him he is asking for nothing but trouble. Bad trouble.

Water heater? What water heater?
My eyes can only focus to a certain spot!

quote:

Originally posted by JK:

quote:

PS The highly modified cars do bring the prettier girls.

Jan's DOES 200 has turned me into a believer!

I hear you. The picture says it all...

Gorgeous.

quote:

Looking at the cars that Hall modified, they aren't necessarily at the top of the desireable list.

Doug, you find me a $20K Hall Super Pantera. I'll buy it and split the $50K profit with you when I sell it!

Deal?

Ahhh.. Nevermind, I'll just end up keeping it.

Kevin