Pantera #7206 - GTS

Welcome to the forum, whatever you name is....

First off, ANY stock or correctly modified Pantera, if well maintained, can easily handle 5,000 miles per year.

Second, IMHO, when you say you don't know much about Panteras, I get a uneasy feeling in my gut.

These are a very easy car to buy incorrectly. If you do not learn how to properly inspect a Pantera, or have the help of someone so skilled to help you evaluate your potential purchase, well... I wish you luck.

PIM is a well known and respected vendor. That said, they are selling that car on consignment and their goal is a sale. Sort of like buying a house. Buyer beware. PIM will not lie to you, but they may not educate you as to any shortcomings the car may have, either.

From the description and photos it appears to be a substantially stock car save for the engine rebuild, radiator, Wilwoods (just calipers, or rotors, too?) wheels, and some appearance upgrades. What there is seems to be pretty common for the course.

You may find a suspension in need of all new bushings. Cooling tubes may need replacing, or not. All rubber hoses might need replacing, or not. And there may be rust.

At $60,000 it is over priced, IMHO. You should have some bargaining room; the seller has probably instructed PIM with a bottom price. PIM wants it to sell for as much as possible. They probably are not in a hurry as they do sell a large number of cars and they know this one will sell in due time.

There were about 150 USA GTS cars. They were nothing out of the ordinary mechanically, but had some appearance changes.

This car is lacking the original GTS steering wheel. It is lacking the original Campys and the GTS center emblems. It has an upgraded interior. Point being, any special 'value' it has as a GTS has been compromised.

Being in LA, you are surrounded by POCA chapters and owners. My advice to you would be to hook up with some of them and learn more before making your purchase. The POCA website has all the chapters listed.

Also, a GREAT opportunity awaits you this June 2-6 in Reno. The POCA Fun Rally, our annual gathering. Sort of like a crash course in learning about Panteras. Go to www.poca.com and find the details. Anyone can attend, you do not need to be a member, though I'd advise you to join.

People buying a Pantera often fall prey to The Fever. The cars are hypnotizing, and once you start looking at them, you want yours NOW. Relax, get to learn about the various flavors they come in, what can and should be done to them, and what shouldn't.

Adopt the attitude each day brings you closer to YOUR car. Generally, when you find it, it will speak to you. Sounds corny, but others know what I mean is often true.

Keep asking questions. That is the best thing to do before, and after, buying a Pantera.

Larry

Could not have said it any better myself, Larry. Caveat emptor rules the day; along with all the other stuff Larry said. Great advise that a lot of us followed, and those that did not wish they did......

Best of luck on finding YOUR car.

Mark

Thank you guys for your replies. I am trying to educate myself as much as possible about Pantera's before I make my purchase. I already learned some things from Larry's reply, such as this GTS is lacking the original emblems, wheels and maybe a few other things that somewhat compromise its value as a GTS. I plan to go to the Reno Fun Rally. Maybe there will be some Pantera's for sale over there, plus I can ask questions and try to learn more about these cars. I'd rather pay a little more and get a Pantera that has been thoroughly gone through and updated. It seems you get a better deal buying a Pantera that has already had substantial upgrades. It appears you can put a ton of money into these cars updating everything, and you don't seem to recoup all that you have put into these cars when you sell. I went to a Pantera Fun Rally a few years ago in Las Vegas because back then I wanted to own a Pantera. But my friends told me Pantera's are from the past, they have old antiquated technology, museum pieces but not cars to drive. My friends said only guys that love to work on their own cars as a hobby buy Pantera's. They sapped the energy out of me and I gave up my search for a Pantera. But my passion has been brewing now for some time to own a Pantera, and this time I won't be deterred. I don't care what my friends say, I plan to own a Pantera. Thanks guys for your advice. And as it happens, I believe I have met you Larry at the Fun Rally in Vegas a few years ago. I believe you own a silver color very sharp looking Pantera. We spoke for a short time after I came up to admire your car. I plan to go to the Reno Fun Rally. If I see you there I will re-introduce myself and say hello.

David

Hi David,

quote:

I believe I have met you Larry at the Fun Rally in Vegas a few years ago.

An exceptionally handsome and charming man with a silver/gray ponytail? Yup, that was me.

quote:

But my passion has been brewing now for some time to own a Pantera

Ah, a low grade Fever.

Yes, buying one upgraded with your preferred choices will save you a ton of money, and time, and perhaps aggravation.

The problem with Panteras is you wind up wanting to improve the breed. But there are many owners who have a car they enjoy, resist that urge, and enjoy what they have.

Since you've done Vegas, you know what to expect from Reno. Not too many cars for sale usually, but ask around, drop your interest and hook up with folks who can feed you information on cars they know, or find, are for sale.

See you in Reno!

Larry

quote:

An exceptionally handsome and charming man with a silver/gray ponytail? Yup, that was me.

Man I knew Chicago was called the windy city, but now we'll have to add Fresno the city with a strong breeze

David, All kidding aside. The friendship here is strong. Guys here will give honest and stritforward directions. There are no dumb questions on this board so don't hesitate to ask, even if it been asked before someone will answer or direct to a previous thread with the answer.
Denis

quote:

Buyer beware. PIM will not lie to you, but they may not educate you as to any shortcomings the car may have, either.

PIM will tell you what the 'owner/seller' told them about the car. PIM does not inspect the cars they have on consignment and make no warranty or claim as to their condition, the presence of rust or not, etc. That was my experience when I looked at a car they had for sale a few years ago. You may be able to pay them to do a pre-purchase inspection on a particular car - check with them.

Larry's feedback is good. Learn all you can. I drove my Pantera about 7,000 miles/year without issue, until I spun a rod bearing - I'm in the middle of an engine rebuild now.

Here are some additional resources:
http://www.banzairunnerpantera.com/how_to_buy.htm

Larry's advice is right on, but I would take issue with one thing.

We all agree that you are better off financially buying a car that has all the features you want as opposed to doing it yourself. You rarely recover the money you've spent... I would only differ in that Larry says that you inevitably WANT to start modifying things. I'd argue that this is only true if a) you didn't buy the car that you really wanted because perhaps you didn't know what you wanted at the time or b) You just can't help tweaking things.

It is certainly permitted to change anything you wish, something that is frowned upon in other marques. And there are some neat things out there that can tempt you, but there are plenty of owners who leave their cars as-is and are prefectly happy.

As far as what your friends tell you about the reliability (or lack thereof) of the Pantera, how many have first-hand experience? On this forum you'll hear from hundreds of owners who have travelled thousands of trouble-free miles, and wouldn't think twice about hopping in their car and driving 1000 miles. True, few owners do that and most only take their cars out on sunny Sundays, but that is the owner's problem, not the car's problem!

The vast majority of Panteras provide years of reliable transportation, perhaps due to the lack of sophistication that your friends scorn. There isn't much to go wrong with the stock formula. If you start messing with the formula, adding electronic do-dads, EFI, computers, sensors, you introduce more failure modes.

Every year I take at least one long distance road trip, literally thousands of kilometers from my home typically to the other side of Europe and don't think twice about it.

Don't listen to the naysayers - drive a handful of cars, decide what you really want and be patient. It really is a quite special car with oodles of personality and entertainment for years.

Thanks for everyone's input. I want to find a Pantera that looks close to show quality, but also capable of getting on the track at the Pantera events and being able to hold up and perform well. I want to find a Pantera that has a stronger than stock hp engine, that has had suspension upgrades, brake upgrades, upgraded electrical, updated A/C, dropped floor pans would be nice(I'm 6 ft 2 3/4), and upgraded interior. And from my research it seems the Pantera GT5-S has done all that right from the factory! Not only that, but the Pantera GT5-S IMHO is the best looking of all the Panteras. Charlie, I noticed that you own a Pantera GT5-S. It seems almost all of the GT5-S's are in Europe, as is yours. I live in Los Angeles. I briefly talked to a guy living in Florida who just sold his GT5-S. He said these cars are hard to drive, hard to work on, hard to find parts for, hard to insure, and don't even think of getting a GT5-S in a car accident because the body was hand molded and it would cost a fortune to repair. If I bought a GT5-S I want to be able to drive the car 5k miles per year or so. The guy who just sold his GT5-S in Florida put less than 200 miles on the car in 10 yrs! Charlie, do you drive your GT5-S? Is it hard to drive and hard to find parts for and hard to work on and hard to insure? If any of you guys out there have any opinions I'm listening.

Thanks,

David

Sounds like the best thing the Florida owner did was sell his GT5S!

Wide body Panteras are renowned for tracking the road due to the width of the rubber and wheel offset to the outside of spindle center. That said there are equally well known fixes to improve caster. My GT5 was transformed when I modified my caster, literally like night and day.

There was recently one 5S with a Fontana motor up for sale, which appeared a very well updated example. The 5S's are generally priced $65-75K for average examples, although in this economy fire sales do come up. Just hang in there and stick to your guns on what you want.

Julian

quote:

He said these cars are hard to drive, hard to work on, hard to find parts for, hard to insure, and don't even think of getting a GT5-S in a car accident because the body was hand molded and it would cost a fortune to repair.

One word, "IGNORANCE!"

The cars are a joy to drive! Imagine muscle car acceleration (but better!), go-kart handling, and true GT highway cruising capability. My Pantera never ceases to amaze me. When I bought my Pantera, I found it was so much fun to drive that I drove it to work EVERY DAY the sun shone for 2-1/2 years.

The cars are easy to work on too! Have you ever changed plugs on a Ford or Chevy from the 60's? That's how hard it is to work on a Pantera. Yeah, maybe you can't do it all leaning over a fender - you might have to reach a couple plugs from the underside, but it's not hard at all! And we regularly have tech sessions where owners get together and wrench on each other's cars together. If you're uncomfortable tackling a project/repair yourself, you're surrounded with folks who've done it before and will show you how and help!

Hard to find parts for??? Let me ask you, who sponsors this board? PIM. They sell parts. So does Quella, Wilkenson, Precision ProFormance, Hall, PPC, Graham, Pat Mical, and others! Just check out the plethora of Pantera parts on ebay any day of the week. They're out there. Actually, we have surprisingly excellent parts availability; and that's just for the Pantera-specific parts! Engine related mechanical bits can all be purchased from your local Kragen/Checker/Shucks, Napa, Autozone, or any auto parts store.

As for insurance; piece of cake! I purchased my car and walked right into my SoCal AAA office and insured my car. They even handled the DMV paperwork for me so I didn't have to stand in line at the DMV. Interestingly, it cost LESS to insure my Pantera than it cost to insure my 89 Mustang GT because it's a somewhat rare collector car and there aren't a bunch of 18-22 year olds filling actuarial tables with accident statistics every month. Granted, that was a 'stated value' policy, and AAA wasn't willing to raise the insured amount later when the car appreciated, but it was EASY! Then I called Hagerty. Completed their application online and in a matter of minutes had 'Agreed Value' coverage (what you need for a Pantera) with no hassles, and cost a lot less than AAA. And most Pantera owners don't plan on getting into accidents - not a habit we want. But, sometimes idiots force us into that situation. That's what the insurance is for. And with an 'agreed value' policy, you're covered. Your car gets fixed (unless you total it), no issues! Just be sure to adequately insure your car.

A fellow club member had an accident. The car was insured for $60,000 and his repair estimate was in excess of $50,000. Initially, Hagerty wanted to 'total' the car because they're concerned the repair will run higher than the agreed value of the vehicle, but as my friend put it, his car properly repaired for a cost of $50,000+ would be a much better car than he could possibly buy for the $60,000 he would have received from the insurance company. His car was properly repaired and is now insured for $100,000, and it warrants it!

So, the Pantera is easy and fun to drive, easy and inexpensive to work on, parts are readily available, and it's easy and inexpensive to insure. Take the plunge. You won't regret it if you do your homework and buy the right car for you.

David,

I have an '86 GT5-S. Hagerty insured it without batting an eyelash and the premium is about $800 a year. Next year when the car is 25 years old, it will fall into the 'Antique' category and will cost less than half that to insure. If you get into an accident, let your insurance company worry about how it's going to get fixed. Metal shaping craftsmen can duplicate any body part!

To me, it is a dream to drive! The car handles like it's on rails. It can stop so suddenly, and without drama that I would worry about being rearended in the event I had to stop that car 'NOW'. The ride quality is superb. It takes bumps with grace. You would need to adjust the front alignment specs (David B -GT5- knows how) to eliminate the front tires from randomly jerking left or right when the front tires are moved more outboard (with aftermarket wheels). I drove it to Ontario and back (about 1000 miles roundtrip) in Sep. '08. I can sum it up by saying it was a very comfortable drive.

Pictures don't do the GT5-S (or any Pantera, really) justice! The low-width, and flow of the flares lulls you into staring at it endlessly. It is truly striking in person. I have a hard time walking away from it. Just looking at it makes me happy!

I don't drive mine as much as I'd like to because I have two young kids (7 & 5) that I like to spend all of my time with. It's a shame, because I really enjoy my time behind the wheel. I'm gonna drive it more this year, I swear!

Registering a 5-S in CA might be an issue due to emissions, but it's been done. Guys there would be better able to help you clear that hurdle. Parts are out there, but some 5-S specific parts may be harder to find.

I had a '74 before this one, and the '86 feels more refined. Keep in mind that this is just my experience, your mileage may vary.

Michael

[quote]Charlie, do you drive your GT5-S?
Does Charlie drive his 5S???? BAWAHAHAHAHa
I'll let him answer that one.
The guy who told you they were hard to drive and hard to insure and........is a tool. He was probably 85 yrs old and didn't have access to the internet.
These are older cars. They will require work and maintenance. Once they are sorted out, they will provide many miles of trouble free driving. If you don't want to own an older exotic, you can always buy a Vette or Viper and be 1 of 50 others at the car shows.
Will

David, People will tell you many things, do your homework for everyone who says it can't be done you'll find as many who say you can. Now that 5s might be your dream car and you may come across one (heck I found a Goose after 6 months of research - and a little luck).

You desire a car with all the upgrades (again you might be lucky) if not remember a lot of the fun is the journey, not the destination. In 10 years, no 2 years time you can tell the naysayers: I changed the control arms, I picked those wheels, I instaled this or that.( again see David B he's been there) Go and see any/all Panteras for sale within resonable distance from home or work, better spend a few hundred in gas than over pay for the wrong car you bought on evilBay or some mag. And who knows you may find a non-5S car out there. You shouldn't buy a 600HP car 1st time around, you need to tame it and courting other Panteras is OK, get those owner's opinions.

Denis

quote:

Go and see any/all Panteras for sale within reasonable distance from home or work, better spend a few hundred in gas than over pay for the wrong car you bought on evilBay or some mag.

When I was searching, I checked out the local cars for sale, made a trip to PIM in Orange to view their offerings (actually had an offer on one of their cars), flew to Vegas to look at cars, made a trip to Phoenix to look at a 71, and had airline tickets booked/reserved for Seattle and Ohio to look at two more contenders before I found mine. A few hundred dollars (or even a grand) in gas or airline tickets is cheap compared to the cost of buying the wrong car that needs LOTS of work. As for evilbay, most auctions require a $200-$500 deposit. View the car BEFORE paying for it!!! If you show up to inspect/pickup a car you bought (deposit only) through ebay and it turns out to not be as described (read: rust-bucket), you can just as easily walk away! The lost deposit is nothing compared to the cost of correcting a rotting car. Always inspect a car before buying!

Check out as many cars as you can, even if they're not exactly what you're looking for! Look at them, drive them, inspect them! You will learn a lot! You will develop a sense of what's acceptable to you and what's not. AND, you will then KNOW the right car when you do find it.

You guys are very inspiring. You've convinced me that there is no reason why I can't own a Pantera GT5-S. I don't want a converted '72 Pantera that has been turned into a GT5-S. I want the real thing.

I read somewhere that there are less than 50 GT5-S's in the entire USA. Probably 40 of those 50 GT5-S's are sitting in a bunch of rich guys car collections and just sit there looking pretty but never driven. Maybe only 10 or less of the 50 GT5-S in the USA are even driven. So I don't understand how and why parts would be readily available for a GT5-S for only about 10 cars in the entire USA? It doesn't make sense economically. But if you guys say all the parts for a GT5-S are readily available who am I to argue, after all you guys are the experts. All I can think of is that maybe the GT5-S uses almost all the same parts as the '71-'74 Panteras, thus the availability. I don't know.

I hope these Pantera GT5-S can pass smog emissions here in California.

Anyway, I appreciate all of your guys advice. One common element that I think all of you Pantera owners have is a "Can Do" attitude, a persistence, and lots of resilience. It's easy to just go out and buy a brand new Dodge Viper right from the dealership. However, it takes some effort, some persistence, and a mindset that is off the beaten path from the mainstream to go out and seek an old Italian exotic. You have to be able to go through some hurdles and obstacles, and put forth some extra effort. You guys show your resiliency and your "Can do" attitude in your posts. An impressive bunch of guys here it seems to me. Additionally, your willingness to offer advice to utter strangers...you guys are quite a special group.

Lastly, Cyboman aka Michael, thanks for including a photo of your GT5-S. It is breathtaking. The color, the decals, no wing (IMO the GT5-S looks better without the wing.) It is a magnificent beauty. I absolutely love your car. Just wondering....would you consider selling it? Interested buyer here.

Thanks,

David

quote:

I hope these Pantera GT5-S can pass smog emissions here in California.

This is a real concern for you. I suggest you contact Kirk Evans. He is the man who did the legal importing of about 50 GT5-S cars into the USA during the late 80's - Amerisport - kre@adelphia.net

quote:

the GT5-S looks better without the wing

My feelings exactly.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for the e-mail address of Kirk Evan of Amerisport. I just sent him an e-mail asking him if the GT5-S can pass smog emmissions here in California. I'm awaiting his reply.

David

David,

Thanks for the kind words about my Pantera! Clearly, I share your feelings for it. My particular Pantera is not a regular GT5-S, it is one of about 6 or so Pavesi Targa GT5-Ss. DeTomaso offered a targa top as a factory option, but it's astronomical cost (50+% of the price of the car) prevented all but the few that were made from being produced. Carrozzeria Pavesi (one of Italy's premier coach builders) did the targa top conversion for the deTomaso factory while the body was in 'white' (just a shell). When completed, they were sent back to the deTomaso factory assembly line for finishing. My 5-S is the only known Pavesi Targa in the U.S. In my estimation, it is worth considerably more than regular 5-S.

Driving it with the roof off IS having your cake and eating it too! It totally transforms the feeling of the car from having the roof on top of your head to the sky being the limit. I can see all the other drivers around me when at an intersection or on the highway. The wind in my hair is awesome too! (Well, it was when I had hair.) I had a '74 Pantera that I had no intentions of parting with, but having had a taste of a 'topless' Pantera, there was no turning back for me!

Michael

Michael,

Your GT5-S just keeps getting better looking every time you send another photo. Your car looks great from any angle. I have never heard of a Pavesi GT5-Ss targa. That must be so cool to know you are driving the only Targa GT5-Ss in the entire country!

I don't know what smog emission laws they have where you live in CT, but since you are driving it obviously you got it to pass emissions. I contacted Kirk Evans via e-mail who owned Amerisport back in the '80's and asked him if a GT5-S could pass smog here in California. Kirk Evans said yes they can pass smog if they still have the contols on them (whatever he means by "Controls" I have no idea, but the "Yes" part I understood.)

Knowing that your car is a Pavesi GT5-Ss, worth considerably more than a normal GT5-S, I may not be able to afford your car. But you never know. Have you ever thought about possibly selling your car? I figure it doesn't hurt to ask.

David