Pantera year of manufacture vs VIN

No. You're right about your car.

DeTomaso wasn't marching to Ford's drum ... yet. The DeTomaso model year was in line with the calendar year at that point. The last 1971 Pantera was #2292, built in December 1971. Whereas north American Ford had been building 1972 model Fords since July of 1971, because they manufactured automobiles based on the fiscal year.

The curious part of that difference ... chassis 2292 which was the last 1971 Pantera, probably didn't hit a Lincoln showroom until February or March of 1972. Ford had been selling 1972 models since September 1971.

The DeTomaso model year was aligned with Ford's model year in 1973 ... the DeTomaso 1973 model year was cut short, it was only 6 months long. DeTomaso began manufacturing 1974 models in July of 1973, just like Ford. My Pantera is one of them.

Happy New year!

-G

quote:

DeTomaso 1973 model year was cut short, it was only 6 months

So the value of 73's just went up because of the rarity????? (in comparison to 71, 72 and 74 models)

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
No. You're right about your car.

DeTomaso wasn't marching to Ford's drum ... yet. The DeTomaso model year was in line with the calendar year at that point. The last 1971 Pantera was #2292, built in December 1971. Whereas north American Ford had been building 1972 model Fords since July of 1971, because they manufactured automobiles based on the fiscal year.

The curious part of that difference ... chassis 2292 which was the last 1971 Pantera, probably didn't hit a Lincoln showroom until February or March of 1972. Ford had been selling 1972 models since September 1971.

-G

Ok, I understand that you're saying 2248 was constructed late in the 1971 calendar year most likely during "1972" Ford fiscal year production. But why would Ford choose to issue an MSO for my car dated 1971?

With #2248 as an example,I guess that #1792 through #2292, while built in 1971, some could have been titled as either a 1971 or 1972 vehicles based on the MSO issued by Ford.

quote:

Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:

quote:

DeTomaso 1973 model year was cut short, it was only 6 months

So the value of 73's just went up because of the rarity????? (in comparison to 71, 72 and 74 models)

I would like to think that the 1973 models are worth more than the others, but I think they are just somewhat different. There are some of the early production 1973 cars with the old style two pod dash and others that have the later 1974 dash. I am not sure about there being any 1973 models without the "L" front rubber bumper, but it is possible. I seem to recall there was an estimate of about 580 Panteras that were actually 1973 models. This figure may be incorrect, so don't hold me to it. My 1973 serial number 5169 was built in March 1973 and has the "L" front bumper, but has the old style two pod dash. I also recall another 1973 Pantera serial number 5139? that had the same dash and bumper combination.

Here's the break-down

Push Buttons (hand built models, a few were actually built before January, in 1970)
Chassis 1001 - 1382
January 1971 - April 1971

Pre-L (The beginning of the assembly line models)
Chassis 1383 - 2292
April 1971 - December 1971

Total 1292 cars in 1971
__________________________________________________

Pre-L
Chassis 2293 - 4268
January 1972 - August 1972

Pantera L (These are officially called 1972-1/2 models)
Chassis 4269 - 4839
August 1972 - December 1972

Total 2547 cars in 1972
____________________________________________________

Pantera L (this is the short 6 month model year)
Chassis 4840 - 5899
January 1973 - June 1973

Total 1060 cars in 1973 (only 6 months)
_____________________________________________________

Pantera L (aligned with Ford's production year, then extended. Should have ended June 1974)
Chassis 5900 - 7380
July 1973 - August 1974

Total 1481 cars in 1974 (14 months!)
______________________________________________________

The things that differentiated an L model from a Pre-L were the motor with EGR, the impact resistant bumpers and the switch to Arriva tires. It doesn't really matter which dash it has, the dash didn't define the model. The change in dash design was just another running change. The change to a side mounted fuel filler didn't start right away either.

The L requires a different body, with pods up front for the turn signals. Its only a hunch of mine, I have no solid evidence, but since DeTomaso was a small manufacturer trying to build cars with as little waste as possible, I'd bet they didn't start using the new L-style coaches until all of the Pre-L coaches had been used up. Because once the change was made a Pre-L lacking the impact resistant bumpers would not have been capable of being sold in the US.

Now the interesting thing about the 1972-1/2 L models, they were built to comply with regulations that applied to 1973 models. In my opinion the 1972-1/2 L models should have been considered 1973 models, meaning the DeTomaso 1973 model year would have began in August 1972, half-way to being aligned with Ford's model year. But its silly to argue that from my arm chair 40 years later, the truth remains that DeTomaso and Ford agreed to refer to the first L models as 1972-1/2 models.

-G

Mine is 4460. It is an L and was built in Sept 72 and is titled as a '73.

Marti wasn't doing reports on these cars when I tried to get one four or five years ago, then I forgot about it.

I'll have to get a Marti report and see what it says?

Thats interesting Doug, I've heard the same story from at least one other owner of a 1972-1/2 L (his car being registered as a 1973). I'd be interested in what your Marti report says as well.

A lot of people have never stopped to realize that for a new model to hit dealer showrooms simultaneously all around North America 4 months early (in September of the prior year) an automaker must begin manufacturing them at a brisk pace in July of that prior year.

-G

G. Although this is interesting, I don't think it is terribly important. The car is what it is.

The mfg tag says it was built in Sept 72. With this other concurrently running thread about the clutch effort reduction kit instalation and the posted TB saying installed in production after Sept 1-72, I just looked and it does not appear that my car has it installed.

The extra leg that gets installed normally in the kit doesn't appear to be there but because of the location and lack of access I could be wrong. If you ask my wife, she will likely say without hesitation, that of course Doug is wrong.

Now, I did have the entire pedal foot box plate out of the car because I was extending (spacing it out for more leg room) and in recalling my thought process on this of intending to install the kit, I didn't. I seem to think it is because I discovered that it is already on the car.

Thought processes being what they are, in particularly mine, that is no guaranty of anything. But back to the model year.

In all title states in the US, the title is issued to the first owner with submitting an MSO. A Manufacturers Statement of Origin.

On this document that once you give to the DMV, you no longer see ever again, is the cars serial number, and the model year.

In my case as in all cases in the US, the DMV issues the model year from that MSO. The manufacturer is the only one that can alter that and is the one that determines that.

Before I go to Kevin Marti on this one, what he has is the official Ford records on this car as to how, when and where it was sold the first time new in the US.

It won't tell the owners first name, it will indicate the selling dealer.

I place my bet on it being sold as a '73 model because of all of this.

This is the prerogative of the manufacture. THEY are the ONLY ones that can determine assign the serial number to the car OR the model year. As such, regardless of the accuracy and the intention of your documentation, it just becomes hearsay evidence since in these years Detomaso is a subsidiary of the Ford Motor Company and it is Ford that determines all of this.

I will agree with you FIGURATIVELY that it is a 72-1/2, but LITERALLY I'll bet you a nickle that it is a '73?

Again...this is nothing I'm going to get my nose out of joint about though, so don't sweat it.

You've got me all wrong

I'm not "sweating" anything in regards to this subject.

Like you, I don't think its terribly important; its just a curiousity.

-G

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
You've got me all wrong

I'm not "sweating" anything in regards to this subject.

Like you, I don't think its terribly important; its just a curiousity.

-G

Wrong? I got the 5 foot pry bar to break you away from those Buttery Nipples?

quote:

Originally posted by JFFR:

snip...
There are some of the early production 1973 cars with the old style two pod dash and others that have the later 1974 dash. I am not sure about there being any 1973 models without the "L" front rubber bumper, but it is possible. I seem to recall there was an estimate of about 580 Panteras that were actually 1973 models. This figure may be incorrect, so don't hold me to it. My 1973 serial number 5169 was built in March 1973 and has the "L" front bumper, but has the old style two pod dash.
snip...

Interesting.
As another 'data' point: my car is #5326 with the "L" rubber bumpers, but I have the single 'pod' dash. So, the changeover may be between your 5169 and my 5326; but, who knows if DeTomaso made a clean cut-over, or went back and forth.

Depends on if the left side of the assembly line was speaking to the right side assembly line.

Knowing how Italians can be, probably not. Might have been the Sunday soccer game results?

And to add more "confusion".....

My '71 has a build date of 5/71. I bought the car new on 1/27/72. The Calif DMV title shows the "date sold" AND the "year model". The "year model" shown on my title is (was) '72.

A few decades later (I'm slow), I called the DMV and questioned the year model. I was told that Calif was only interested in the "date sold", and that the "year model" "defaulted" to the year that the car was sold.

I was also informed that they (the DMV) had recently (mid 90's ?) made a change, so that new titles now showed the actual "model year". The old titles remained unchanged. I inquired about changing my title, and was given instructions on how to make the change. So, in 2009 (I told you I was slow ), I went to AAA and (painlessly) got the title changed.

While this title change had no real impact on the car's value, I made the change because a) the title now reflects the correct "model year", and b) if Calif ever changed the smog laws to include '71 cars....

John

And to further confuse things, here are the dates from my Marti Report.

John, does this mean that the car was built without a serial number which wasn't assigned until 7 months later?

What does released mean?

As Chief Inspector Clouseau would say...very interesting.

To me, it's just confusing?

Does your Marti report show the original selling dealer?

And just to make things worse.

My car 6638 was manufactured Dec. 73
Sold new in California in 1974.
Which would make it "year model" 74
and "date sold" 74

Yet it is titled as a 73.

I was told the California dealers re-titled some cars to beat new smog laws implemented for 1974 in California. Whether this is fact or not, I have no idea.

Doug M

Doug W,

Yes, it appears to be very confusing.

I have no idea why those two dates are so far apart. I've seen some Marti Pantera reports that have the serialized date BEFORE the released date, and some AFTER.

If the two dates on my Marti report were reversed, that might make sense if my car went through Stroppe's shop.

Maybe George or someone else can shed some light on this.

The Marti report did show my selling dealer. However, my Owner Card has the Dealer Sales Code of my selling dealer written below another number that had been "scratched" out. That first number may have been for the dealer that my car was originally delivered to. It’s possible that my car may have been first delivered to a dealer in LA, and then traded to my selling dealer in San Diego.

Another puzzling thing on my Marti report is that the Port of Entry is shown as Baltimore, Maryland. I would have thought that it would have been Long Beach, California. Maybe it was trucked across country ????

The first Marti report that I got for my Pantera had errors on it. I had to send it back to be redone. I thought that I had a copy of that first report, but I haven’t found it yet. I do remember that the car color was wrong on that first report.

John

quote:

Originally posted by INZOWHO:
And just to make things worse.

My car 6638 was manufactured Dec. 73
Sold new in California in 1974.
Which would make it "year model" 74
and "date sold" 74

Yet it is titled as a 73.

I was told the California dealers re-titled some cars to beat new smog laws implemented for 1974 in California. Whether this is fact or not, I have no idea.

Doug M

It's a while ago and it's tough to remember but the story I think goes something like, as an import Ford got the EPA requirements waved on things like an air pump.

It wasn't required to have one BUT it was required to pass the emissions test. That meant the dealer could legally issue the safety inspection/emission tag on the new car without lying about it. The car would pass the sight check for emissions equipment.

Working with emissions on other cars I wonder how you can do that? Granted new cars are exempt from state testing in most states, but the next time the car is due, how can you clean it up enough? The air pump is on the car because it is otherwise next to impossible to get the car clean enough without it. Been there, done that. You need the pump.

Something for the '74 model year was going to change such as the pump would be required or additional equipment required, or something to that effect which would be impossible to do to the Pantera because the car would require a major rework to do.

The alternative was to not sell the Pantera in the '74 model in California.

California is a tricky state. There are loopholes that if you hire enough lawyer/engineers ( a strange but useful combination) you can come up with something and drive a herd of elephants through it.

The answer was simple. Ford issued a MSO stating that the car was a '73.

I'm pretty sure that's how the story went?

quote:

Originally posted by INZOWHO:

... My car 6638 was manufactured Dec. 73 ... Sold new in California in 1974 ... Which would make it "year model" 74 ... and "date sold" 74 ... Yet it is titled as a 73.

... I was told the California dealers re-titled some cars to beat new smog laws implemented for 1974 in California. Whether this is fact or not, I have no idea ...

Doug M

That's more or less correct Doug, except it wasn't the dealers who redocumented the 1974 Panteras, it was Ford.

My 1974 model California Pantera was also redocumented as a 1973, and as far as I know, all 1974 Panteras destined for California were redocumented by Ford as 1973 models.

The explanation is rather simple. I believe 1974 was the first year in which California adopted its own tailpipe emissions standards, which were stricter than the US Federal standards. To sell a car equipped with a certain motor in all 50 states a manufacturer had to get the motor cetified twice, once by the US federal government, once by California. But since Californa's standards were stricter than the federal standards, many motors needed re-tuning to meet the stricter standards in California.

The 351C 4V didn't pass California's stricter standards for 1974 (the 351C 2V did). But 1974 was the final year of production for the 351C 4V ... Ford didn't see the logic in expending the time & money to re-tune and certify the 351C 4V for California when they were going to cease manufacturing it a year later. So instead, they took the 351C 4V off the options list for Torinos, Rancheros, Cougars, and Montegos in California. Problem solved ... almost.

The 351C 4V was not optional equipment in the Pantera, it was standard equipment. It was the ONLY engine installed in Panteras. And California was the biggest market for the Pantera. However, even though California was the largest market for Pantera sales we're still only talking about a few hundred Panteras that were sold in California in 1974 ... and just like the 351C 4V the sale of the Pantera was scheduled to be terminated after the 1974 model year. In the judgement of the corporate giant (Ford) the sale of a few hundred Panteras still didn't justify expending the time & money to re-tune and certify the 351C 4V for California.

So rather than cut-off Pantera sales in California Ford did what any arrogant corporation would do and re-documented the few hundred 1974 Panteras destined for California as 1973 models and laughed all the way to the board room.

Ford and all the automakers were hurting financially, they weren't happy at all with California's decision to adopt their own emissions regulations, doubling the cost of having motors tuned and certified. Ford sarcastically referred to California as the green state in all their official documentation.

-G

quote:

Originally posted by jb1490:

... Maybe George or someone else can shed some light on this ...

I can't be much help other than to say that the Marti report is obviously wrong. The cars are serialized the day the VIN number is stamped on the chassis, and that takes place before they were painted at the Vignale factory in Turin, and that happened a month before the car was finished and left the factory in Modena.

Marti is probably misinterpreting the meaning of a date stamped on a factory document. Taking the date to indicate the date the car was assigned a VIN, when in reality it was simply the date Vicenzo finally got around to filing the paperwork.

-G

This is to me a very interesting subject.

First off I've always trusted Kevin Marti for accuracy with his reports. When you go to document a Shelby, you need the report.

Everyone takes this as gospel. This shows that it isn't.

I'm not going to waste my money on it now. I want to see others with Panteras post their reports and look at the results.

It looks to me like there is some kind of a guessing game going on with him and the Panteras?

I don't remember if it was here or on the SAAC Forum where there was a poster that said his father was the engineer for Ford that took care of all the Warranty records on the Pantera Warranty Service.

As I recall he said he remembered his father had the "official" Ford records on these cars all hand written of 3"x 5" index cards and that to his knowledge when they were of no use to anyone they all got dumped into the garbage?

I'm wondering if Marti got a hold of a similar stack of cards from Ford and that is why he is offering these Pantera reports.

Now this isn't an accusation by me, but it isn't me who needs to explain this situation to everyone. It is Kevin Marti.

To me, it is Marti's credibility that is at stake here, not mine. I'm not the one that is claiming accuracy on these reports. He is, and the information being shown here is they are not accurate at all?

Considering all of this I doubt others will come forth with showing their Pantera reports, but personally I'd love to see them.

Maybe they will prove me wrong and way off base on this, but I don't think so?

Anyone up for the challenge to post them?

As far as what model year any car is, I do think George and I are in agreement basically.

There are two sets of records really. Detomaso's and Fords.

In the US all that matters legally are Fords because they are officially the manufacturer and Detomaso is essentially a sub-contractor, and Vignale a sub-contractor to him.

So the documentation from Ford is the determining factor as far as what model year the car is.

I'd love to see the accurate history of my car as far as the original selling dealer etc.

For '73 that is the first model year as a "titled" car for New York.

I purchased the car in New York with a Florida title.

Who knows where the original selling dealer was? It is a US car so likely it is a US sale? It is an L, it was assembled in September '72, it was red with a black interior. All other equipment is standard.

It had a dual pod dash and the early fuel tank and filler system. It has the L bumpers and directional lamps and pods. Pretty much answer my own questions on that...except the original dealer and sale date.

The only information missing is the original dealer and original sales date.

That is nothing more then a curiosity at this moment. I can wait.

Were the cars sold new in Canada from 71-74 US equipped cars?

quote:

Were the cars sold new in Canada from 71-74 US equipped cars?

From what research I have done. And there is very little info to be had.

Yes - The Canadian and U.S. cars were identical.

Actually, because the Canadian LM dealers were allotted so few cars, big centres like Toronto which could sell more cars than they could get, would purchase cars from the U.S. dealers and ship them across the line.

Which brings up an interesting question.
A Marti report would probably show the original selling dealer as Buffalo NY (or somewhere else for that matter) but the car was in reality sold new from a Canadian LM dealer.

BUT, as most in this thread agree, does it really matter?

Doug M

quote:

I seem to recall there was an estimate of about 580 Panteras that were actually 1973 models. This figure may be incorrect, so don't hold me to it. My 1973 serial number 5169 was built in March 1973 and has the "L" front bumper, but has the old style two pod dash. I also recall another 1973 Pantera serial number 5139? that had the same dash and bumper combination.

My 1973 Pantera (# 5181) is an "L" with the Dual Pod Dash. According to Chuck Melton, it is one of 8-10 Panteras built in the Spring of 1973 that came this way.

Beautiful car!

-G

Thank you. She's about 95% original, down to the paint. Been in the family for 27 years now and has just under 13,000 miles.

Your car is what mine most have looked like new? Very interesting experience for me. Very, very nice car that you have. Thanks for posting pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by jb1490:
Doug W,

I've seen some Marti Pantera reports that have the serialized date BEFORE the released date, and some AFTER.

John

I worked in for the manufacturer in the 90s

it was customary to pull orders ahead for model year (June-July-August)and year end (December) in order to get / maintain sales leadership nubers.

I wouldn't see why that would be done for Panteras but that is the skinny on it!

There are hints that manufacture at Vignale was so chaotic that if there was a problem with one particular car and they needed to make a shipment (they used SHIPS that did not wait around!) that chassis was pulled from the "assembly line" and shoved outdoors until the workers had time to correct whatever its problem was. A different car would be inserted in the line to complete the batch & make delivery. If this is accurate, it may help explain why some numbers have far-out finish dates.
Plus, it's well known that DeTomaso NEVER threw anything away that he could eventually sell; prototypes languished in the factory junkyard for years before actually being finished and sold. The crash-test wreckage was even retained and sold- Roland Jaeckel bought at least two of the 3.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
There are hints that manufacture at Vignale was so chaotic that if there was a problem with one particular car and they needed to make a shipment (they used SHIPS that did not wait around!) that chassis was pulled from the "assembly line" and shoved outdoors until the workers had time to correct whatever its problem was. A different car would be inserted in the line to complete the batch & make delivery. If this is accurate, it may help explain why some numbers have far-out finish dates.
Plus, it's well known that DeTomaso NEVER threw anything away that he could eventually sell; prototypes languished in the factory junkyard for years before actually being finished and sold. The crash-test wreckage was even retained and sold- Roland Jaeckel bought at least two of the 3.

My pushbutton #1280 is a 1972 and I know several pushbuttons titled 1972.

quote:

My pushbutton #1280 is a 1972 and I know several pushbuttons titled 1972.

What is the build date on the B pillar tag ?

John

One of the oldest Registries list #1280 as a '71 Euro pushbutton. The first '72 in that Registry is #2262.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
One of the oldest Registries list #1280 as a '71 Euro pushbutton. The first '72 in that Registry is #2262.

The Detomaso Registry on the Italian Detomaso site is no longer up. They had over a dozen euro push buttons entered as 1972.

It is hard for people to grasp that Detomaso was not Ford and their number system was more of a guideline; especially in the beginning; especially with pushbuttons.

I can see American Pushbuttons all being 1971 as Ford and Detomaso was trying to get away from pushbuttons being sold in the USA for more of a standardized car. This meant all the left over pushbuttons got sent to other countries as my #1280 went to France first.

I suspect latter in production things were sorted but it seems the bastard cars all went to Europe. I can identify over a dozen items on my car which are specific to 1972 cars; the exhaust headers, front uprights, rear decklid etc. Even the trunk release is BOTH on the rear deck AND the door jamb.

Someone once told me Since Shelby made new 1967 Mustangs and licensed them as 1967 Mustangs (when was that, in the 1980's, 1990's) then my Pushbutton must be a 1972.....I say no this justifies what I have been saying.

Shelby made 1967(+/-) Mustangs from supposedly left over 1967 chassis which is the argument. I understand he was latter arrested because the chassis were actually new but bought his way out of it.

But the fact remains that----
Shelby certified them as a 1967 Mustang
The Department Of Transportation certified them as a 1967.

The Pushbuttons pushed off to the side were---
Certified by Detomaso as a 1972
Certified by Italy as a 1972

And mine specifically was certificated by France as a 1972 and now by the USA as a 1972.

The people who say it is not a 1972 but a 1971 are people who try to fit it in a general number order they understand.....because they want to.

Personally, I think the number mismatch s part of the story of who Detomaso was as a company at a period of time. Trying to make numbers fit when it goes against history is to rob who and what they were. Detomaso was not Ford. The Pantera went from the drawing board to production in 11 months. Detomaso tried to keep things in an orderly fashion for the American Ford market to keep Ford happy and sent the left overs to Europe. That is the history.

The dozen or more European 1972 pushbuttons is a perfect example. It is also why you will not find a build sheet in the springs under your seat.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
One of the oldest Registries list #1280 as a '71 Euro pushbutton. The first '72 in that Registry is #2262.

BTW, the information in other so called registry for the car #1280 which is mine was not entered by the car owner and the date was assumed for the purpose of getting info into the registry. It makes such a thing not credible.

My car #1154 is a 1972 pushbutton

My car #1267 was registrered in Vincenza (just outside Modena), Italy in 1971. Although most pushbuttons have build dates in 02-03/71 the build date on my car is 05/71 according to the number stamped on the footbox - and 04/71 according to the VIN plate on the dash . I guess an example of the build chaos at Vignale ?

Pushbutton. Or not. What's the big deal? I don't think any other brand of car is talking about the shape of the door handles as being something that important? Reminds me of a Rowan Atkinson sketch, where he says he comes from a parallel universe. He says that everything in that universe is the same as in ours, except...the Mini Metro has a differently shaped gear knob.

Maybe I'm just envious. Maybe not. To me the Panteras mostly got technically better and better, so the later the better. (Mine is a 72, couldn't afford anything later)

Go ahead, flame me... Just my $0.02. I like all Panteras, regardless of the shape of the door handles

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Pushbutton. Or not. What's the big deal? I don't think any other brand of car is talking about the shape of the door handles as being something that important? Reminds me of a Rowan Atkinson sketch, where he says he comes from a parallel universe. He says that everything in that universe is the same as in ours, except...the Mini Metro has a differently shaped gear knob.

Maybe I'm just envious. Maybe not. To me the Panteras mostly got technically better and better, so the later the better. (Mine is a 72, couldn't afford anything later)

Go ahead, flame me... Just my $0.02.

It is a marker of time when the Pantera was young and shows how they did not follow 100% the general guidelines of the time date format of the cars.

quote:

Pushbutton. Or not. What's the big deal? I don't think any other brand of car is talking about the shape of the door handles as being something that important? Reminds me of a Rowan Atkinson sketch, where he says he comes from a parallel universe. He says that everything in that universe is the same as in ours, except...the Mini Metro has a differently shaped gear knob.

Maybe I'm just envious. Maybe not. To me the Panteras mostly got technically better and better, so the later the better. (Mine is a 72, couldn't afford anything later)


Go ahead, flame me... Just my $0.02. I like all Panteras, regardless of the shape of the door handles

It's not a big deal - but I guess for some reason you just made it .

We were discussing build dates vs. registration dates, not which model is better than the other, I think? The numbering and registration dates of the pushbuttons are just a curious example of how different they can be?

Point taken.

Brgds
Square-handle-Mike

quote:

BTW, the information in other so called registry for the car #1280 which is mine was not entered by the car owner and the date was assumed for the purpose of getting info into the registry. It makes such a thing not credible.

So, are we going to have a rumble after school behind the gym? Yes, there are some little quirks in the production that make "rules" meaningless.

Far more important, IMO, is the fact (as quoted above) that the "registry" may be full of inaccuracies! This lack of integrity in the registry makes one wonder if this isn't the reason Panteras are so under-rated pricewise?

At any rate, we are all on this ride together . . .

coughyellowsquarehandledcarsarefastestcoughcough

cheers,