When I bolt up my pressure plate to the flywheel one of the three fingers sits about .125" lower than the others two and seems to be a little loose. Is this a problem? Can they be adjusted?
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This is an area that has to be just right. Personally I would replace the 3 finger plate with a diaphram plate. I bought on for a Mustang and had to send it back. Do yourself a favor and call a Vendor. How about PI? if your a member you get a discount. I got mine from Hall and had to get a new flywheel too because I now have a 10.5 where the original was 11 inch. $800 later, I have no clutch problems or worries!
A Long clutch in a Pantera is the wrong clutch.
It uses a diaphram, Bork&Beck type.
Although it will bolt up you will not be able to get enough clutch travel with it.
Also like LPB states, the 10.5 disc is the right choice rather then the 11 inch.
Center Force makes a dual friction unit just for the Pantera.
I got mine from Hall Pantera also. It ain't a cheap clutch but it does work very nice.
It uses a diaphram, Bork&Beck type.
Although it will bolt up you will not be able to get enough clutch travel with it.
Also like LPB states, the 10.5 disc is the right choice rather then the 11 inch.
Center Force makes a dual friction unit just for the Pantera.
I got mine from Hall Pantera also. It ain't a cheap clutch but it does work very nice.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
A Long clutch in a Pantera is the wrong clutch.
It uses a diaphram, Bork&Beck type.
Although it will bolt up you will not be able to get enough clutch travel with it.
Also like LPB states, the 10.5 disc is the right choice rather then the 11 inch.
Center Force makes a dual friction unit just for the Pantera.
I got mine from Hall Pantera also. It ain't a cheap clutch but it does work very nice.
Ditto for me. Hall is expensive but top quality.
I have CenterForce too.
From Hall I think, fitted by the previous owner who usually bought from Hall.
It also has a lower pedal pressure than a standard clutch, it makes driving in traffic easier.
I recommend it.
From Hall I think, fitted by the previous owner who usually bought from Hall.
It also has a lower pedal pressure than a standard clutch, it makes driving in traffic easier.
I recommend it.
> When I bolt up my pressure plate to the flywheel one of the three fingers sits
> about .125" lower than the others two and seems to be a little loose. Is this
> a problem? Can they be adjusted?
That is a problem and makes me think you have a rebuilt unit. I've seen
enough bad rebuilt units to always use a new performance pressure plate
in high performance applications.
> This is an area that has to be just right. Personally I would replace the 3
> finger plate with a diaphram plate. I bought on for a Mustang and had to send
> it back. Do yourself a favor and call a Vendor. How about PI? if your a member
> you get a discount. I got mine from Hall and had to get a new flywheel too
> because I now have a 10.5 where the original was 11 inch. $800 later, I have
> no clutch problems or worries!
I don't see the logic in having to purchase a flywheel so you can use a
clutch disc of smaller diameter. You can call Pantera Performance in
Colorado and they will have the proper 11" clutch disc and a Weber
Long style pressure plate that will work as well or better for less money.
The 10.5" clutch discs and diaphragm pressure plates are popular because
they came on later 5.0L Mustangs. If you need a lighter pedal, there are
centrifugal assist pressure plates like the Centerforce in the diaphragm style
which might make you want to switch flyheels (or have yours re-drilled).
> A Long clutch in a Pantera is the wrong clutch. Also like LPB states, the
> 10.5 disc is the right choice rather then the 11 inch.
I think you're mistaken about this. All Ford 351C's with manual transmissions
(and Boss 302's) came with 164 teeth flywheels fitted with a Long style
pressure plate and an 11" clutch disc. I'm told Panteras had the marcels
flattened but were otherwise stock Ford units. My 16K mile Pantera was this
way.
> It uses a diaphram, Bork&Beck type.
Diaphragm and Borg & Beck are two separate styles of pressure plates.
I suppose it's a matter of preference but I have cars with all three
styles of pressure plates and I prefer the 3 finger Long style. Be
aware that many diaphragm pressure plates have trouble shifting at high
RPM. There are high rev versions available if you know where to look.
Dan Jones
> about .125" lower than the others two and seems to be a little loose. Is this
> a problem? Can they be adjusted?
That is a problem and makes me think you have a rebuilt unit. I've seen
enough bad rebuilt units to always use a new performance pressure plate
in high performance applications.
> This is an area that has to be just right. Personally I would replace the 3
> finger plate with a diaphram plate. I bought on for a Mustang and had to send
> it back. Do yourself a favor and call a Vendor. How about PI? if your a member
> you get a discount. I got mine from Hall and had to get a new flywheel too
> because I now have a 10.5 where the original was 11 inch. $800 later, I have
> no clutch problems or worries!
I don't see the logic in having to purchase a flywheel so you can use a
clutch disc of smaller diameter. You can call Pantera Performance in
Colorado and they will have the proper 11" clutch disc and a Weber
Long style pressure plate that will work as well or better for less money.
The 10.5" clutch discs and diaphragm pressure plates are popular because
they came on later 5.0L Mustangs. If you need a lighter pedal, there are
centrifugal assist pressure plates like the Centerforce in the diaphragm style
which might make you want to switch flyheels (or have yours re-drilled).
> A Long clutch in a Pantera is the wrong clutch. Also like LPB states, the
> 10.5 disc is the right choice rather then the 11 inch.
I think you're mistaken about this. All Ford 351C's with manual transmissions
(and Boss 302's) came with 164 teeth flywheels fitted with a Long style
pressure plate and an 11" clutch disc. I'm told Panteras had the marcels
flattened but were otherwise stock Ford units. My 16K mile Pantera was this
way.
> It uses a diaphram, Bork&Beck type.
Diaphragm and Borg & Beck are two separate styles of pressure plates.
I suppose it's a matter of preference but I have cars with all three
styles of pressure plates and I prefer the 3 finger Long style. Be
aware that many diaphragm pressure plates have trouble shifting at high
RPM. There are high rev versions available if you know where to look.
Dan Jones
I ended up putting a 11" centerforceII in mine and installed a long throw slave cylinder. Works great and I believe it was cheaper than the dual friction unit.
micks74,
Was that clutch a direct bolt in on the stock flywheel? Did you have to run a different throw out bearing? Part number? Thanks!
Was that clutch a direct bolt in on the stock flywheel? Did you have to run a different throw out bearing? Part number? Thanks!
4NFORD,
That I don't know..I used an aluminum flywheel from Fidanza ($220)It had the same pattern as the stock, so I would guess it works. Best I remember I used the matching 6 holes in the flywheel to attach the press plt. Used the would be dowel holes for centering with a shouldered bolt and drilled the remaining 3 holes and taped. 9 bolts total. I had to use a chevy 12pt.bolt kit cause a standard bolt would interfer with the press.plt. Used the same throw out bearing. the P/N's I'll have to get when I get home.
That I don't know..I used an aluminum flywheel from Fidanza ($220)It had the same pattern as the stock, so I would guess it works. Best I remember I used the matching 6 holes in the flywheel to attach the press plt. Used the would be dowel holes for centering with a shouldered bolt and drilled the remaining 3 holes and taped. 9 bolts total. I had to use a chevy 12pt.bolt kit cause a standard bolt would interfer with the press.plt. Used the same throw out bearing. the P/N's I'll have to get when I get home.
The original clutch is a 10.5 inch disc with a diaphram clutch cover. It was refered to at one time as a Borg&Beck.
The original flywheel part number is a C5ZZ number, I don't remember the suffix.
You can use an 11 inch clutch but you will need to redrill the flywheel.
You can also use a Long unit if you can figure out how to get more travel out of the slave cylinder.
The Pantera clutch was always in the Ford parts book as a Pantera part, not a Mustang unit.
The original flywheel part number is a C5ZZ number, I don't remember the suffix.
You can use an 11 inch clutch but you will need to redrill the flywheel.
You can also use a Long unit if you can figure out how to get more travel out of the slave cylinder.
The Pantera clutch was always in the Ford parts book as a Pantera part, not a Mustang unit.
I begin to suspect that unknown to him, Doug has a Pantera that has been converted over to a 10 1/2" clutch/PP by a previous owner. They get pretty grimey pretty quick and it may have looked older than the hills when he worked on it, but 71-74 cars came with 11" from the factory in Modena.
[quote]The original clutch is a 10.5 inch disc with a diaphram clutch cover.
No it was not. I pulled my original clutch/pressure plate and had them rebuilt locally. The PP still had a DeTomaso isis logo on it, and the rebulder took one look at the clutch disc and knew something was different - the flattened marcels. The pressure plate is a three finger Long style.
...The original flywheel part number is a C5ZZ number, I don't remember the suffix.
You can use an 11 inch clutch but you will need to redrill the flywheel....
Wrong again; no you will not have to drill an original Pantera flywheel to install an 11" clutch as they came with an 11".
...You can also use a Long unit if you can figure out how to get more travel out of the slave cylinder.....
The original Pantera Long style clutch has always worked in Panteras with or without long throw slaves.
...The Pantera clutch was always in the Ford parts book as a Pantera part, not a Mustang unit.....
Correct. Pantera owners that bought and installed the Mustang 11" clutch/PP have sometimes inadvertently "clearanced" the inside of the bellhousing as the counter weights on the stock Ford PP are larger than the Pantera unit.
Here is a photo of the rebuilt units installed.
Larry
[quote]The original clutch is a 10.5 inch disc with a diaphram clutch cover.
No it was not. I pulled my original clutch/pressure plate and had them rebuilt locally. The PP still had a DeTomaso isis logo on it, and the rebulder took one look at the clutch disc and knew something was different - the flattened marcels. The pressure plate is a three finger Long style.
...The original flywheel part number is a C5ZZ number, I don't remember the suffix.
You can use an 11 inch clutch but you will need to redrill the flywheel....
Wrong again; no you will not have to drill an original Pantera flywheel to install an 11" clutch as they came with an 11".
...You can also use a Long unit if you can figure out how to get more travel out of the slave cylinder.....
The original Pantera Long style clutch has always worked in Panteras with or without long throw slaves.
...The Pantera clutch was always in the Ford parts book as a Pantera part, not a Mustang unit.....
Correct. Pantera owners that bought and installed the Mustang 11" clutch/PP have sometimes inadvertently "clearanced" the inside of the bellhousing as the counter weights on the stock Ford PP are larger than the Pantera unit.
Here is a photo of the rebuilt units installed.
Larry
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...Larry knows of what he speaks!! Right-On Larry!!! That is exactly what I found when I pulled the clutch from my '74L. A 3 forged finger Pressure Plate, Style; Borg and Beck LONG and a 11" disk. I replaced it complete and exact with a Mcloud Plate and Disk. I used a New T.O. Bearing from P.I. All works PERFECT! and with very little effert! I don't like the 'FlimsyNess' of the Diaphram Plates. The 'Multi-Fingers' have been known to wear through; especially if the throw-out bearing is adjusted too tight and drags on the fingers. If you are running a diaphram plate be sure you use the t.o. bearing with a curved face as the bearing with the flat face will not contact the multi-fingers properly all through it's geometry. The flat face bearing is for the pressure Plate with the 3 Forged Fingers...
...also the Original Flywheel does NOT have to be redrilled for the 11" clutch and Plate; as Larry stated "They came from the factory with 11" Clutches!!" And I am here to tell you that the McLoud hardware will bolt right up Perfectly with No problems..
got a source and part numbers for the McCleod set up? Throw out bearing recommendation?
Thanks
Thanks
Pay attention to what Dan Jones and Larry have to say. They are right on the mark. I got my clutch parts from Pantera Performance Center and it all bolted up and works perfect with the STOCK clutch master and slave. I know people that have tried to reinvent the wheel (clutch system) and have been very disappointed and ended up spending a pile of money. Call your favorite Pantera vendor and they will have a solution that will be guarantied to work. The guys at de Tomaso must have stayed up all night figuring out all the clutch parts.
Mike
Mike
...If you would take a Micrometer and measure the thickness of the Hat(cover)of the McLoud clutch, and compare this measurement to other makes; you would find that the McLoud Hat is the Thickest in the Industry! Almost twice as thick as the 'cheaper' plates, that is why they are so heavy! This is most important in clutches to prevent 'Hat Flexing' which translates into loss of friction and clutch slippage. For those who didn't know, the McLoud Plate has a Slightly lower spring pressure, making for easier clutch pedal depression and is easier on the rubber parts of the Hydraulic System. This lower pressure is compensated by the use of counterweights(Yes!! They clear the BellHousing!), on the 3 Forged Fingers; that increase the plate to disk pressure in proportion to the the RPM's going higher. I believe McLoud makes the best(Single Disk)clutch that any amount of money can buy! That is suridly why P.I. Motorports has chosen them to sell to their customers. I have used McLoud clutches exclusively, in all of my vehicles, for decades; and I fully recommend them for any amount of Horsepower!!FWIW...
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quote:This lower pressure is compensated by the use of counterweights(Yes!! They clear the BellHousing!)
Wow! I really thought the counterweights were a solid no-no. Perhaps you were lucky? Anyone else have counterweighted pressure plates that are not banging on the bellhousing?
Larry
...Luck has nothing to do with it! MayBe I just Know What I'am Doing!...
...Luck has Nothing to do with it!! I was NOT Born Yesterday; I have the Experience to Know What I'am Doing!!...
There are three basic types of pressure plates:
1. Diaphragm
2. Borg & Beck
3. Long
The Borg & Beck design is a three finger (lever) design. The levers compress
a series of coil springs to release the clutch. The clamping force is a
function of the spring rate and the installed height of the springs. There
is no centrifugal assist. The Long design is a similar 3 finger design that
uses levers that apply centrifugal clamping pressure. As engine RPM increases,
the levers in the plate pivot against the cover and apply additional clamping
force to the clutch disc. There are counterweighted and non-counterweighted
versions of the Long pressure plate. The counterweighted levers have weights
to the backside of the levers that apply additional centrifugal assist over
and above that inherent in the Long design. The Long design is used
extensively in drag racing and often have adjustable base pressure via screws
which adjust the spring height. Back in the 4 speed days, GM used Borg & Beck
and Ford used Long. The diaphragm pressure plate uses a single, large
Belleville spring to load the pressure plate. The Belleville spring over
centers when the pedal is fully depressed which makes it easier to hold
the clutch pedal in at a stoplight. That isn't much of a selling point for
me as I generally unload the transmission and slide it out of gear at a light.
One downside to diapragm pressure plates is they tend to stay over-centered
at high RPM. There are specific high RPM versions. There are also
aftermarket versions of the Borg & Beck and diaphragm designs that add
centrifugal assist.
> A 3 forged finger Pressure Plate, Style; Borg and Beck LONG and a 11" disk.
Just so no one gets confused, Mcleod makes a hybrid Borg & Beck/Long design
that uses the Borg & Beck heavy duty hat and the Ford long style fingers
(which have a quicker ratio and inherent centrifugal assist). The bigger
ratio means not as much pedal travel is required for the same engagement,
a good thing for stock slave cylinders.
> the Original Flywheel does NOT have to be redrilled for the 11" clutch and
> Plate
Correct. My low mileage Pantera had an 11" clutch and was drilled for a
standard Long style pressure plate. The flywheel is a 164 tooth Ford part.
The factory manual says the disc and pressure plate were sourced from Italy.
> I got my clutch parts from Pantera Performance Center and it all bolted up
> and works perfect with the STOCK clutch master and slave.
PPC uses the Weber/Mcleod pressure plates.
> I really thought the counterweights were a solid no-no. Perhaps you were
> lucky? Anyone else have counterweighted pressure plates that are not banging
> on the bellhousing?
Where the counterweights are located depends upon the design. Not all
would cause interference. For instance, the type used with Borg & Beck
pressure plates use rollers inside the cover. The original pressure plate
was a Long design which has assist that clears.
Dan Jones
1. Diaphragm
2. Borg & Beck
3. Long
The Borg & Beck design is a three finger (lever) design. The levers compress
a series of coil springs to release the clutch. The clamping force is a
function of the spring rate and the installed height of the springs. There
is no centrifugal assist. The Long design is a similar 3 finger design that
uses levers that apply centrifugal clamping pressure. As engine RPM increases,
the levers in the plate pivot against the cover and apply additional clamping
force to the clutch disc. There are counterweighted and non-counterweighted
versions of the Long pressure plate. The counterweighted levers have weights
to the backside of the levers that apply additional centrifugal assist over
and above that inherent in the Long design. The Long design is used
extensively in drag racing and often have adjustable base pressure via screws
which adjust the spring height. Back in the 4 speed days, GM used Borg & Beck
and Ford used Long. The diaphragm pressure plate uses a single, large
Belleville spring to load the pressure plate. The Belleville spring over
centers when the pedal is fully depressed which makes it easier to hold
the clutch pedal in at a stoplight. That isn't much of a selling point for
me as I generally unload the transmission and slide it out of gear at a light.
One downside to diapragm pressure plates is they tend to stay over-centered
at high RPM. There are specific high RPM versions. There are also
aftermarket versions of the Borg & Beck and diaphragm designs that add
centrifugal assist.
> A 3 forged finger Pressure Plate, Style; Borg and Beck LONG and a 11" disk.
Just so no one gets confused, Mcleod makes a hybrid Borg & Beck/Long design
that uses the Borg & Beck heavy duty hat and the Ford long style fingers
(which have a quicker ratio and inherent centrifugal assist). The bigger
ratio means not as much pedal travel is required for the same engagement,
a good thing for stock slave cylinders.
> the Original Flywheel does NOT have to be redrilled for the 11" clutch and
> Plate
Correct. My low mileage Pantera had an 11" clutch and was drilled for a
standard Long style pressure plate. The flywheel is a 164 tooth Ford part.
The factory manual says the disc and pressure plate were sourced from Italy.
> I got my clutch parts from Pantera Performance Center and it all bolted up
> and works perfect with the STOCK clutch master and slave.
PPC uses the Weber/Mcleod pressure plates.
> I really thought the counterweights were a solid no-no. Perhaps you were
> lucky? Anyone else have counterweighted pressure plates that are not banging
> on the bellhousing?
Where the counterweights are located depends upon the design. Not all
would cause interference. For instance, the type used with Borg & Beck
pressure plates use rollers inside the cover. The original pressure plate
was a Long design which has assist that clears.
Dan Jones