Need advice please :-) On my recently bought '73 Pantera the right tire hits the front of the fender when turning left. On the right it is close but it does not touch. The castor shims are in the front for maximum castor. The rims are 15x7 with 225/60 tires. The car is stock, the shocks have still the US spacers. The fenders are a little rolled on the edges.
What options do I have to fix it?
Many thanks...............Eugen
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Dear Eugen,
I had this problem on both of mine after I increased the positive caster to +4.5 and +5 degrees... without the spacers and 245 and 255 tires. I didn't want to change the suspension set up so I visited an expert body man and friend, who gently and discretely tweaked that area of the fender where the tire kisses the metal.
How much positive caster do you have?
Other than that option, you can:
--go to narrower tires and/or lower profile tires, but the aesthetics wouldn't look right
--reduce the positive caster a bit
-- if the fender lips are only a little rolled, then more might be better
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
The first thing I’d do would be to have your front fenders rolled properly and completely.
Also, your front tires are too tall. Try a 205/60. A 215/60 or a 225/50 would probably work too.
Yes, it is the increased caster causing it. Apparently the original chassis jig was off or there is a significant difference in the sheet metal between the right and left front fenders.
My car did the same thing. I had to limit the castor to the stock maximum. The interference showed after swapping in 8" Campi's and 225-50-15 P7 Pirelli's.
You actually need to "stretch" the right front fender out.
Everything will go but what has happened is you have "modified" the car from it's original configuration.
Earlier cars could use more caster because they used the skinnier front tires and 7" rims.
The Ford engineers making these decisions for Detomaso weren't stupid but they never did divulge any secrets. Don't forget Ford was paying to warranty the car, not Detomaso.
...You should have gone with 50 Series Tires, you wouldn't have this problem. 60 series are too tall, I rarely hear of anyone still using them.
I went with 205/50-15 on 8 inch rims, No problems. When I put on new tires, 205's are no longer available, went with 215/50-15. The lower tires make for a beautiful (slight) nose-down attitude, and the shocks are adjustable to where I want it. And, as a bonus...Smaller Diameter tires Increase the 'Brake Torque'!
MJ
P.S. do yourself a favor and get rid of the Shock Spacers, and have your front end re-aligned.
Would removing the shock spacers (if installed) lower the nose slightly, and perhaps help with this issue?
That could be a no-cost (except your own labor) improvement!
Rocky
...Taking the Spacers OUT, might make the problem worse! I would take them out, finish rolling the Fender Lip, and work from there. Go to 50 series on 8 Inch rims. 'Stretching' the tire out Wider on 8 Inches, may 'Cause' the needed clearance. Just My Opinion.
MJ
Thank you all for your quick replys! Wow, valuable information! I bought the Pantera recently in this configuration and have never driven it - I am now fixing all things necessary to get it street legal here in Austria. Tires hitting the fenders are a no-go for sure :-)
Thanks, best wishes.........Eugen
I could go with AVON 215/60 -R15 tires. I could not find any /50 historic tires. The change would lower the car 0,6 cm /1/4 inch). Maybe that helps and is enough, very pricey though. Or with 225/50 VR 15 PIRELLI CINTURATO P7 that lowers the Pantera almost an inch!
...Historic Tires?? Do You insist on staying with the 60 Series? Just going to 50 Series will give you (at Least), 1/2" More Clearance On the Radius! Go with the 50's! Yes! They Are Expensive...Welcome to the Pride in Pantera Ownership! What about the 8 Inch Wheels??
MJ
What tires do you have on the rear? I assume the rear wheels are the OEM 15” x 8”?
50 series lo0ks goofy , on a stock pantera 215/60 will fitt the best on 7" front.
225/60 on 8"rubbs the fender , needs little steel work and paint , but looks better .
just my 2 c ,
Simon
Simon,
If it were me, and I was determined to use a 60 series tire, considering the fender interference problem, I'd use a 205/60-15 (24.7" tall). You gain nearly 1/2" of clearance, which should eliminate the problem. With a 215/60-15, you gain less than 1/4" of clearance, which might not be enough to solve Eugen's rubbing problem.
@davidnunn posted:What tires do you have on the rear? I assume the rear wheels are the OEM 15” x 8”?
I got 295/50 tires on 15x8 inch in the rear
@marlinjack posted:...Historic Tires?? Do You insist on staying with the 60 Series? Just going to 50 Series will give you (at Least), 1/2" More Clearance On the Radius! Go with the 50's! Yes! They Are Expensive...Welcome to the Pride in Pantera Ownership! What about the 8 Inch Wheels??
MJ
I just like the thread pattern of the Avon CR6ZZ tires I have in the rear. :-)
And yes, I know, it is expensive to own and maintain a Pantera. I just don't want to order new tires that won't fix my problem or don't look good anymore.
@davidnunn posted:Simon,
If it were me, and I was determined to use a 60 series tire, considering the fender interference problem, I'd use a 205/60-15 (24.7" tall). You gain nearly 1/2" of clearance, which should eliminate the problem. With a 215/60-15, you gain less than 1/4" of clearance, which might not be enough to solve Eugen's rubbing problem.
David, most of the time I use Avon CR6ZZ tires too .
1/4 "clearance is ok with 215/60 , when braking and cornering the suspension will be going a little backwards. Looking on the picture , it looks like the fender lip has some curves , maybe the fender was pushed backwards /upstairs .
Eugene , did you replace the A-arm rubbers already ?
295 on 8" is not good , better go to 245/60 or 275/50 ( Avon Reference) and if you like to go rear wider use 20mm or 1" bolt on spacers , easy to get into USA, M12x1.5 bolts /5x114.3 mm ( same as Ford Mustang , bolt tread as Lexus)
in front 225/60 on 7+8"will only will fit when the fender lips are reworked and painted.
just my experience.
Simon
@simon posted:David, most of the time I use Avon CR6ZZ tires too .
1/4 "clearance is ok with 215/60 , when braking and cornering the suspension will be going a little backwards. Looking on the picture , it looks like the fender lip has some curves , maybe the fender was pushed backwards /upstairs .
Eugene , did you replace the A-arm rubbers already ?
295 on 8" is not good , better go to 245/60 or 275/50 ( Avon Reference) and if you like to go rear wider use 20mm or 1" bolt on spacers , easy to get into USA, M12x1.5 bolts /5x114.3 mm ( same as Ford Mustang , bolt tread as Lexus)
in front 225/60 on 7+8"will only will fit when the fender lips are reworked and painted.
just my experience.
Simon
Simon,
thanks, and no, the A-arm rubbers are old and need replacement, I ordered the bushings already. Do you see a connection to the tire rubbing with the bushings?
The front fender lip is not rolled in beautifully, that is true, I will correct that too.
And thanks for the info about the spacers & rear dimensions!
Eugen
@marlinjack posted:...You should have gone with 50 Series Tires, you wouldn't have this problem. 60 series are too tall, I rarely hear of anyone still using them.
I went with 205/50-15 on 8 inch rims, No problems. When I put on new tires, 205's are no longer available, went with 215/50-15. The lower tires make for a beautiful (slight) nose-down attitude, and the shocks are adjustable to where I want it. And, as a bonus...Smaller Diameter tires Increase the 'Brake Torque'!
MJ
P.S. do yourself a favor and get rid of the Shock Spacers, and have your front end re-aligned.
I don't understand "as a bonus". With smaller tires, it takes more torque and therefore press harder on the pedal to have the same force between the tire and the road and it's this force that brakes the car, not the torque.
Eugen , almost every classic car (Pantera) which came from the USA needs a replacement of all the 16 A arm bushings and all 8 ball joints , that is the first to do . Sometimes the bushes looks ok , but after dismantling the A arms you notice they are gone or sloppy.
After the bushings are replaced you have a good start for adjust the suspension to the right dimensions.
The spacers , you can buy them whit a big center hole, or whit 60 mm center hole must be machined to 62 mm to fit the center wheelhub from the Pantera ( my favorite)
Dont want to push you to do what I always do , but it's my experience.
Simon
Agree on delete the shock spacers , stock shocks are good on a stock car .when they are rebuild. Most of the time on a stock Pantera I mount rebuild stock Koni's .
Not the into the USA rebuild Koni's, into the past they use the wrong rubbers material inside , and shocks goes frozen.
But hé its your car , do what you want and what you like.
Simon
@simon posted:Eugen , almost every classic car (Pantera) which came from the USA needs a replacement of all the 16 A arm bushings and all 8 ball joints , that is the first to do . Sometimes the bushes looks ok , but after dismantling the A arms you notice they are gone or sloppy.
After the bushings are replaced you have a good start for adjust the suspension to the right dimensions.
The spacers , you can buy them whit a big center hole, or whit 60 mm center hole must be machined to 62 mm to fit the center wheelhub from the Pantera ( my favorite)
Dont want to push you to do what I always do , but it's my experience.
Simon
Simon,
thanks, yes, the bushings are on my to do list - just waiting for the shipment. Looking forward to this work, great fun from what I read :-)
The ball joints seem to be quite new.
@simon posted:Agree on delete the shock spacers , stock shocks are good on a stock car .when they are rebuild. Most of the time on a stock Pantera I mount rebuild stock Koni's .
Not the into the USA rebuild Koni's, into the past they use the wrong rubbers material inside , and shocks goes frozen.
But hé its your car , do what you want and what you like.
Simon
Thanks, and yes, I will get rid of the spacers when doing the A-arm bushings as well.
@Seethaler posted:Need advice please :-) On my recently bought '73 Pantera the right tire hits the front of the fender when turning left. On the right it is close but it does not touch. The castor shims are in the front for maximum castor. The rims are 15x7 with 225/60 tires. The car is stock, the shocks have still the US spacers. The fenders are a little rolled on the edges.
What options do I have to fix it?Many thanks...............Eugen
A very simple fix could be to shorten the left tie rod end by one turn or so and lengthen the right tie rod end by the same amount. If this does not fix it then reverse the change because your steering wheel will be out of level. If it does fix it then your steering wheel will need to be leveled (assuming it was level) and your turn signal cancel cam may need adjustment as well.
I don't see how adjusting the tie rod ends will change anything except the centering of the steering wheel.
As you are planning on replacing the bushings, you should try offset bushings, these move the top a-arm forward, but the lower back to gain caster, so they rotate the hub around a more centered axis, where the upper ball joint shims just move the upper ball joint forward.
@rene4406 posted:I don't understand "as a bonus". With smaller tires, it takes more torque and therefore press harder on the pedal to have the same force between the tire and the road and it's this force that brakes the car, not the torque.
...Yes! You have it right!! Torque is a Force over an Arm (length of the Lever), which Can create a Rotation around an axis. In this Case of Brakes...this would be the Radius of the Tire (yes it's Flat on the bottom) The Shorter Radius 'Requires' a 'Slightly' greater force on the Pads, which means a greater force on the Pedal, Correct!
The Bonus I speak of is...a More 'Sensitive' Braking Response and a Faster Stopping of the Rotor. On My Pantera, when I stop, I don't notice any Increase in the Pedal Effort, Undetectable!! The car stops immediately, "On a Dime" as they say. The Nose will 'Dive' Slightly and then 'Blips' up, Once, in return. Just as you would see in a Ferrari, Lamborghini or any other Exotic. To ME, This IS a Bonus!!
...on last thing, take a good look at the 'Racing' Panteras, they run in Europe! A Very Small Front Tire with a 'Gigantic' Rear Tire! Those guys know the Physics of what I speak. They don't use Small tires up front for No Good Reason...or because they may Look Pretty, Mean, or Impress 14 Year Old Girls! LOL
...Yes, pressure on the pads, and friction of the tire on the road, stops the car...The Resistance to the 'Rotational Torque' is what 'Creates' It!
With the LARGER tire, the 'Arm' is Greater and the 'Resistance to Rotational Torque' Decreases along with a Lesser Pedal Effort, although the change in the Effort is undetectable...the Brake Pads take more time to stop the Rotor, the Car must travel farther before a Full Stop.
Next Challenge??
MJ
@joules posted:I don't see how adjusting the tie rod ends will change anything except the centering of the steering wheel.
As you are planning on replacing the bushings, you should try offset bushings, these move the top a-arm forward, but the lower back to gain caster, so they rotate the hub around a more centered axis, where the upper ball joint shims just move the upper ball joint forward.
His tire is likely rubbing the fender when the steering rack is at its end point. If that is the case then adjusting tie rods will certainly have an affect on the tire rub problem.
@marlinjack posted:...Yes! You have it right!! Torque is a Force over an Arm (length of the Lever), which Can create a Rotation around an axis. In this Case of Brakes...this would be the Radius of the Tire (yes it's Flat on the bottom) The Shorter Radius 'Requires' a 'Slightly' greater force on the Pads, which means a greater force on the Pedal, Correct!
The Bonus I speak of is...a More 'Sensitive' Braking Response and a Faster Stopping of the Rotor. On My Pantera, when I stop, I don't notice any Increase in the Pedal Effort, Undetectable!! The car stops immediately, "On a Dime" as they say. The Nose will 'Dive' Slightly and then 'Blips' up, Once, in return. Just as you would see in a Ferrari, Lamborghini or any other Exotic. To ME, This IS a Bonus!!
...on last thing, take a good look at the 'Racing' Panteras, they run in Europe! A Very Small Front Tire with a 'Gigantic' Rear Tire! Those guys know the Physics of what I speak. They don't use Small tires up front for No Good Reason...or because they may Look Pretty, Mean, or Impress 14 Year Old Girls! LOL
...Yes, pressure on the pads, and friction of the tire on the road, stops the car...The Resistance to the 'Rotational Torque' is what 'Creates' It!
With the LARGER tire, the 'Arm' is Greater and the 'Resistance to Rotational Torque' Decreases along with a Lesser Pedal Effort, although the change in the Effort is undetectable...the Brake Pads take more time to stop the Rotor, the Car must travel farther before a Full Stop.
Next Challenge??
MJ
You're right about wheel inertia, if it decreases it improves braking since it decreases the amount of rotational kinetic energy to be dissipated.
And you are also right for the laws of physics, they are the same everywhere, in Europe as in the US and they have'nt changed for 50 years, when I did my engineer's studies.
...I read somewhere...concerning the 'LaMans 24 HR Race'. After attaining a top speed of 235 MPH on the Mussane (SP?) Straight, and approaching the Mussane Corner, the Brakes must 'Decelerate' 2,500,000.00 LB/FT (Yes, That's 2-1/2 Million Lb/Ft) of Rotational Torque. And the Rotors Glow Red-Hot, every Lap for 24 Hrs. I do not know how much speed they must reduce to navigate the 'Corner'. Of course, that's on 4 Rotors, all Red Hot.
Notice the Torque Measured Taken OFF from a Rotating Device, as in a Brake Rotor or Flywheel on a Dynamometer, is Labeled in 'Pound/Feet'. and Torque Applied TO A Device, such as Human 'Levering' a Torque Wrench, is in Foot/Pounds (Ft/Lbs).
Being an Engineer, you already know this. I posted this here because I read a Lot from Members, who seem to be confused on this Matter. There is the Difference.
MJ
@stevebuchanan posted:His tire is likely rubbing the fender when the steering rack is at its end point. If that is the case then adjusting tie rods will certainly have an affect on the tire rub problem.
Ah, the Nascar approach, he'll be able to turn left more than right.
@marlinjack posted:Thank You!!
I read somewhere...concerning the 'LaMans 24 HR Race'. After attaining a top speed of 235 MPH on the Mussane (SP?) Straight, and approaching the Mussane Corner, the Brakes must 'Decelerate' 2,500,000.00 LB/FT (Yes, That's 2-1/2 Million Lb/Ft) of Rotational Torque. And the Rotors Glow Red-Hot, every Lap for 24 Hrs. I do not know how much speed they must reduce to navigate the 'Corner'. Of course, that's on 4 Rotors, all Red Hot.
Notice the Torque Measured Taken OFF from a Rotating Device, as in a Brake Rotor or Flywheel on a Dynamometer, is Labeled in 'Pound/Feet'. and Torque Applied TO A Device, such as Human 'Levering' a Torque Wrench, is in Foot/Pounds (Ft/Lbs).
Being an Engineer, you already know this. I posted this here because I read a Lot from Members, who seem to be confused on this Matter. There is the Difference.
MJ
My apologies for high-jacking the thread! Not really.
A torque is expressed in lb.ft or ft.lb (m.N or N.m in the international system), not in lb/ft nor in ft/lb since it is a force multiplied by a length, or in a multiplication the order of terms does not matter, unlike divisions, hence the possibility of using both forms.
To brake a car, it is effectively necessary to dissipate the kinetic energy of translation of the total mass of the car plus that of rotation of everything that rotates in the car and all this energy is transformed into heat produced by the friction of the pads on the discs and a bit through the engine with the throttle closed.
At the 24 hours of Le Mans, it's the Hunaudières straight and the Mulsane corner 
. It seems to me that they run the corner at around 110 or 120 km/h (around 70 MPH) hence the very, very, heavy braking.
Apart from the race, the Hunaudières straight is a normal road open to traffic, I drove on it several times, but at 90 km/h (55MPH) because the speed is limited and there are often the police 
.
