Rust behind the front door

Mine had rust in one place only, same as yours. The size of two stamps. Just cut it out, welded a rounded patch in, no need for anything special.

I suggest you grind of all the paint, and do a picture?

Mended

I should rephrase this. The rust is to the rear of the door on the exterior sheet metal. NOT in the door jam. My bad.

OK, sorry, disregard my input

I would comment that when you see the paint bubble you can figure that the panel area is rusted and the area of rust coverage is 3 to 4 times the size you can see. This area of the pantera is a known area for rust, I suggest you dig deeper to determine the amount of rust. Happened to me and I found out from others that this area is bad

Talk to Johnny Woods about an intire panel. He may have them already done and it is just as easy to install a new panel as it is to patch it properly.

This is just a rust prone area of the car and they probably all have some there to some extent.

It's a problem of monoquoc design and too tight of a space for drains to work right over the years.

Probably had the beginnings of rust on the assembly line and the only way to have protected the car properly would have been to use heavily galvanized components or vat dip the car in electrostatic primer like Ford did with the Mustangs.

One of the vendors I have spoken with said "they had water in them before they left the factory". THAT was funny.

I believe that but if you have been into every knock and cranny of the car like I have you will discover that there is a provision for a water drain right there.

The issue is that the weep holes are too small for practical use, and that what was provided easily gets plugged up even right on the assembly line from debris falling within the structure.

I think italian cars have gotten a bad rap here in the US especially in the early days. Back when Alfa and Ferrari was importing cars in the late 50's and early 60's most shops did'nt even have metric tools to work on them properly. People bitched. They drove them on salted roads they rusted and people bitched.

Italian cars have always and most likely alway will be more highly designed. Most US car companies design their cars in house where the most beautiful design gets bastardized by the big corporate suits. Most italian car companies use design studios as consultants for their designs. Pinnifarina, Ghia, Bertone, Zagato to name a few. They tend to produce just beautifully proportioned products. Having owned a few old italian cars in my life I definitely have an appriciation.

The rust issues on the Pantera are relatively few and much better after the introduction of the L.

Porsche 911's of the same era are no better.

Apparently the use of rock salt for "public safety" considerations on icey roadways is largely a North American deal. Considering that the largest know deposit of salt is under the Great Lakes, it is no surprise that there is a market for it here?

Those repairs may actually a bit more complicated than the surface metal rusting. While my surface damage looked similar, there could be more damage to the subframe below that area. If you own a MIG, are a decent welder and loaded with confidence, you can tackle it rather easily;it is an intimidating process to dig as deep as it may take.

I worked with Kirk Evans, last year, repairing mine. It was a wonderful education as he taught me how to reconstruct the area with ~20 gauge sheet metal. We did it all from flat sheet. I would not have ventured here on my own. For me, it was another one of those experiences that after one demonstrates the technique you realize, Hey, I can do that. Here are a few pics of reconstruction. Unfortunately, I lack photos of the final pics. Yet, the following pics may show what you are in for underneath and help you understand one approach should you choose to tackle it.

pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

Nice job on the patch work.
It can be tricky to get everything to line up right and stay put as you make your welds.
I would bet yours came out real nice
BTW, I used to restore old Mopars, Panteras don't seem to rust nearly as bad as a 70 - 74 cudas

I have a GT6 completely apart right now. Tack welding fresh 20 ga onto rusty 20 ga CAN be a daunting task. The car I am reviving has the small amount of rust as seen here, but after inspecting the inside of the left side rocker via the seat belt pocket seems to indicate light damage. This car never saw the light of day during the cold months, so rust may just be due to lack of surface protect inside the structure and just natural oxidation. My guess is that the owner will get some enjoyment this spring and summer after which I may have a mechanical "punch list" and may be asked to start some tear down to prepare for body/paint work. We'll see. I just know I have a cooling system upgrade to finish this weekend as there is going to be a visit by the "brown truck" with lots of stuff from the west coast. Sure wish there were matching tires for the f & r for 15x7 & 15x8 stock wheels other than BFG Radial T/As. Anybody use Coker tires?

JT -

Really nice metal work.

Does that entire area fill up with water? I saw that there are drain holes there, but undersized? I assume they are on the underside, or bottom side of the rocker.

Thanks for the pix.

Rocky -

I admit I performed some heavy handed editing. I decided to erase any trace of the off topic comments which created an issue for some members. Unfortunately that required the complete deletion of a few posts. Please everybody, don't take my actions personal. I harbor no ill will towards anyone. My feelings are that no one is perfect, we all do regretable things from time to time. One guy, much wiser than me, once said "let he who is without fault cast the first stone". As adults, we apologize and learn from our mistakes, or we forgive those who admit their errors, and we all move-on. Apologizing and forgiving are both difficult things to do.

All the good on-topic info has been retained.

-G

Quickitty,

Yes, those E-Bodies rust really well in the "rust belt" of America. Being a monocoque construction similar to a Pantera, they certainly have issues. I would have to say more though, as the Mopar engineering was lacking when it came to the trunk area of Cudas and Challengers. Worst engineering for trying to keep water out that you've ever seen! So when you see a rusted out trunk on one of these cars, it's because of the water coming in from rain and sitting in the trunk. Lots of rusted trunk floors in these cars -- and Panteras are lucky as they seem to be engineered a LOT better in this regard. I do not know of doors, front trunk cover, or rear engine covers that leak in water to sit on sheetmetal.

Also, you guys on the southwest USA don't have to worry about something in the rest of the country called humidity and temperature change throughout the day. This is what can be a contributing factor to rust occurring on the inside of our monocoque built cars in these humid areas of the country. With no 100% protected coverage on the inside of boxed structures in the rockers or other areas of Panteras, rust will occur from the normal humidity and temperature changes that occur day after day in those parts of the country. That's why all of my cars are rustproofed; not undercoated, but rustproofed. Just like BMW's, Mercedes, and the whole host of higher end cars that do this at the factory, I have taken their build techniques and applied it to my Cuda, and obviously to my Pantera. Doing this will preserve the interior sheetmetal of these cars for future owners to enjoy once I'm long gone -- at least that's the crazy plan I have......

Mark

There was a factory drain in there that just didn't work right.

If that pocket is going to fill up with water then it doesn't matter if you are in the rust belt or not. It will rust out again.

If you are going to tear it all apart, best be certain that what you have done can not possible retain water in there in any way.

"Those that refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"- Winston Churchill.

I try but I figure after the third time, I figure I must be hopeless?

PanteraDoug,

Yes, obviously the drains have to work -- I wholeheartedly agree with you there.

Where I deviate and have learned, as per your Sir Winston quote, is that these boxed in areas need to be treated to rustproofing -- again, rustproofing that I am talking about is not a paint or an undercoating. It is a maple syrupy concoction that is coated inside any boxed in structure after final paint is complete. This is what the european OEM's are using in their cars if they are not dipping their bodies in galvanized zinc. It works, but you need to intrude into every boxed in area or rust will come back. I know Wurth used to carry rustproofer, and I'm sure that PPG or any large chemical company that supplies quality paints would offer such a rustproofer product.

I have been exposed to another terrible paint disaster on a 66 XKE that I own. It was restored back in the early 90's and around 97 (about 6 years after it was painted), there started to show a lot of little paint bubbles all over the car. Didn't make any sense, but it was only on the main body, doors, and trunk lid. It didn't show up on the front engine hood, which is easily one third of the car. So I take it to a good body/ paint friend of mine (not the same guy), and right away he told me that it was a contamination problem. I couldn't believe it!!! He said that it may have been a hose that was used for sand blasting that was used to paint without the proper filters set in place. It also could have been scale from the inside of the air tank without proper filters at the paint gun end as well. So my XKE was painted in 97, and I have not had a recurring issue with the paint on that car -- THANK GOD!!!! So I don't know if this may be your issue PanteraDoug, but I thought it may be worth at least talking about.

Best of Luck!!!

Mark

quote:

It is a maple syrupy concoction that is coated inside any boxed in structure after final paint is complete.

Is this the stuff that looks like wax? A friend of mine from Europe tells me of a rust proofing agent that can be sprayed on that when applied looks like a wax. Says it works very well.

I'm a believer in the zinc dip. Ford used it on the 60s Mustangs and it just didn't rust through where it got dipped.

Next best thing is the "maple syrup" concoction of which you speak.

I was told that it is a type of cosmolene and when it cures it is very waxy to the touch. It works by sealing out the oxygen.

Here discussing this is a great idea. You never want to have to do this ever again. There are some really good ideas others have suggested on other subjects that I would have never considered as a solution.

Sometimes here I think it is the right side of the brain, the part that creates those crazy irrational dreams that sometimes comes up with a stroke of genius.

Wish I was crazy in that way.

The Brits swear by THIS stuff. It's used over here, too. http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID007392

Yes, it is the stuff that looks like wax -- it should never dry out and it creeps all over if full coverage is not done with metal brackets in the way. Yes, it does not allow oxygen in, so it cannot rust. It does work very well -- so well that BMW and Mercedes use it to this day in certain cars. I believe Waxoyl is the same product. It really creeps into all areas once it is sprayed into the box areas of the sheetmetal.

My guy that repainted my Jag also said that undercoating in a wet area of the country is a really bad idea. Once water gets between the undercoating the sheetmetal, which it will if you drive in water or rain, it will be just like a bathtub. He has seen many rust ruined vehicles that had undercoating installed on single thick sheetmetal and you could tell that it was the culprit. So that begs the question, then if undercoating is not good in a wet part of the country -- then what is it good for? If one uses it for sound or heat proofing, there are much better products out there for that.

Anyway, best of luck!!!!

Mark

Hi
I am an Ex Brit living in Oz now - guess what I used all through the inside of the Pantera box sections - yes, Waxoyl - Keeps the car rust free on the UK's salty roads - should be a little overkill here LOL.

Theoretically it is the solution. I did have rust through problems on my Ford Econoline after it was installed in it brand new.

You need to be sure that it has not "creeped" into the weep holes, and plug them, which it can do, and it has the tendency of not wanting to stick to certain types of welds that produce any kind of weld slag.