Sale Pantera Neuvo, 200, GTSi No. 16 of 38

where are u located? I may be very interested. Mail me with details
Stephen

Could you let us know where you are located and what your contact numbers, phone, email, fax might be?

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Originally posted by phill1:
Could you let us know where you are located and what your contact numbers, phone, email, fax might be?

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Hi Phill1,
forgot to add an email address. Please see the original post. Otherwise you can reach me on drthkern@netscape.net

The car is Europe, all other details via email!

Having carefully researched import rules, and having had discussions with both DOT and EPA there are some facts that need to be understood. First, no DeTomaso car ever made will qualify for grey market import or under the "show and display" exception. The Feds have determined that there is nothing of unique world trend setting technological innovation in the cars. End of story.

Second, there is no extraordinary historical basis (owned by very famous person such as a king or queen, a world record setter)or other factor that make them of compelling historical interest to the automotive world or the DOT. In essence the cars are viewed a being manufactured by a two bit player and put together with other peoples engines and parts technology. We know that is exactly what DeTomaso did.

Third, even if you could convince the DOT committee of the above and qualify for "show and display", the car must still pass complete EPA testing for year of manufacture which would require major engine system reconfiguration and an registered importer and or ICI agreeing to do the work ahead of time. I have contacted ten and none will touch a DeTomaso.

The last option is the simplest. Buy the car in Europe, remove the engine/trans. Sell the engine overseas. Ship the roller to the US as "parts." Buy a new engine here and system, take your receipt for the roller, engine down to DMV and get a title and off you go. Assuming you can pass your states emissions if any! Of course if the windshield glass isn't AS1 and AS2 for side windows, and seatbelts, headlights, and everything else aren't up to DOT spec and DOT looks at the car somehow, you will have thirty days to bring it into compliance or ship it overseas or DOT will have it crushed.

I'd guess, between flying over to Europe and back, hotels, rental cars, finding mechanics over there, over here and parts you'd best plan for an extra fifteen thousand over the cost of the car, registration fees extra. So, we shall see which Pantera guy really wants the only SI in the US and is willing to gamble 80 to 110k to have it.


[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 09-30-2003).]

When I first shipped my cars to the US (from Canada where I purchased them) I sent them through my broker under the show and display deal. No trouble at all. Maybe the age of the vehicle has something to do with. I'm not sure but I think 14years qualifies as an antique so you may have to wait a few more years to bring this one in.

Anyhow, when I subsequently sold one of my cars while it was in the US, I just paid a small tax and that was it. The other returned home to Canada with no trouble (of course they didn't know that the money raised from selling one of them went into the motor in the other before coming home - but hey, enough said).

I suggest you contact a broker who has a vested interest in helping you get the car into the country.

I agree you'd have to be brave to try to get through the red tape to import an Si, but it was supplied with a EPA-legal Ford Mustang 5.0, so there should be no need to pull the engine, right? I know they are street legal in Switzerland, and they are the California of Europe (super strict emissions requirements).

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Charlie McCall
1985 DeTomaso Pantera GT5-S #9375
"Raising Pantera Awareness across Europe"
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gt5s_1985

Deeb's comments about Canadian imports have merit, but I was speaking about European imports. Various rules and standrds have changed in a government effort to make Grey market cars much harder to get in. The DOT EPA waiver for age of an automobile is 25 years. There are DOT rules, EPA rules, and US Customs rules. Just because a customs inspector let the car in, doesn't mean DOT or EPA is content. If DOT is satisfied you still must satisfy EPA. Kinda like Catch 22. Second the 302 Ford installed in the SI was not a US EPA compliant motor, it has some emissions equipment but nothing compared to the US or California standards. It qualified 91/441 under pollution European regs, but would not to meet US standrds. Source Claudia Lodi. You'd probably need to fabricate carbon canisters, air pumps, side marker lights?,fittings hoses etceteras. You'd have to pass "vapor" tests, have pressure sealed gas tanks and the list goes on and on. Most importantly, you'd need to have this work agreed to and done by an ICI or registered importer ahead of time. Don't get me wrong, personally I'd love to grab an SI and I suspect the most likely way is the "roller" method. Below are the show and display rules.

HOW TO IMPORT A MOTOR VEHICLE
FOR SHOW OR DISPLAY
July 7, 2003

A rule permitting entry of nonconforming motor vehicles for purposes of show or display became effective on August 13, 1999. If you wish to import a vehicle for show or display, you must apply to NHTSA for permission to do so and establish that the vehicle is of such historical or technological significance that it is in the public interest to show or display the vehicle in the United States even though it would be difficult or impossible to bring the vehicle into compliance with the Federal motor vehicle safety standards. This provision is intended to facilitate the importation of historically or technologically significant vehicles that were never certified by their manufacturer for sale in the United States.

If you would like to know before purchasing a foreign vehicle whether NHTSA would determine that it is eligible for importation for show or display, you should submit an Application for Determination That a Motor Vehicle is Eligible for Show or Display and provide the information set out below in item 6d of the section entitled How You May Apply for Permission to Import. If NHTSA decides the vehicle is eligible for importation, you may then purchase the vehicle and submit a formal application containing the other information required. You should also consult the approved/disapproved listing at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay to learn which vehicles the agency has already determined eligible for show or display and which vehicles it has determined to be ineligible.

VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY

In determining whether a vehicle is eligible for importation for show or display, NHTSA will consider the following factors, among others:

Whether a vehicle of the same make, model, and model year was manufactured and certified for sale in the United States.
Whether a vehicle of the same make, model, and model year has been determined eligible for importation pursuant to 49 CFR Part 593.
Whether the vehicle is currently in production.
Whether more than 500 of the vehicles were produced.
Whether the vehicle is a kit car, replica, or special construction vehicle.

If the answer to any of the above is affirmative, you should not expect NHTSA to grant permission for importation. If the answer to item 4 is affirmative, the applicant must establish that the vehicle is of exceptional technological and/or historical significance.

ON-ROAD USE

A vehicle eligible for Show or Display may receive NHTSA approval to be driven on the highway. The odometer must not register more than 2,500 miles in a 12-month period. NHTSA approval of limited on-road use is to allow the vehicle to be driven to and from nearby displays of similar automobiles. Another reason permission is granted is to maintain the vehicle�s engine, braking, lighting, and other dynamic systems in good working order. The vehicle is still required to meet EPA requirements. If the original engine in the vehicle will be replaced with a non-original engine to meet EPA requirements, it must be identified in your application since it may impact on the technological or historical significance of the vehicle.

HOW YOU MAY APPLY FOR PERMISSION TO IMPORT

Your signed application must include, at a minimum:


Your name, address, phone number, and FAX number.
Vehicle identification � make, model, model year, VIN or chassis number, engine number, date of manufacture and mileage.
Location where you will store the vehicle in the United States.
Statement describing use on the public roads, if intended. If on-road use is requested, identify the Independent Commercial Importer (ICI) that will modify the vehicle to bring it into conformity with the requirements of the Environmental Protection Agency.
Basis for the application.
Attachments:
Photographs � � frontal, � rear, interior, odometer reading and special features (if appropriate).
Document from manufacturer or recognized historical source, identifying total production (production verification).
Proof of insurance conditioned on limited on-road use (not more than 2,500 miles accumulated in any 12-month period).
Identification of vehicle�s:
Technological significance � You must identify (be specific) the technology, engineering, and construction features of the vehicle that are advanced and of an unusual nature not commonly found in motor vehicles manufactured in the same time period; or
Historical significance � You must identify the historical significance of the vehicle. If a person of historical significance owned the vehicle, you must submit proof that this person owned the vehicle. If the vehicle was the first or last vehicle of a particular model, you must establish this through the manufacturer�s documentation or, if this is not available, through a recognized historical source. If the vehicle was "one of a kind," you must establish this also.
Items of significance must be numerically listed followed by the reason why the item is of significance.

You may then mail the application to:

Import and Certification Division
Office of Vehicle Safety Compliance (NVS-223)
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
400 7th Street SW, Suite 6111
Washington, DC 20590


Importing other than for show and display
VEHICLE IMPORTATION GUIDELINES
(Imported From a Country Other Than Canada)

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July 10, 2003


The following provides information concerning the importation of a passenger car, truck, trailer, motorcycle, moped, bus, or MPV built to comply with the standards of a country other than the U.S. or Canada. Importers of motor vehicles must file form HS-7 (available at ports of entry) at the time a vehicle is imported to declare whether the vehicle complies with DOT requirements. As a general rule, a motor vehicle less than 25 years old must comply with all applicable Federal motor vehicle safety standards (FMVSS) to be imported permanently. Vehicles manufactured to meet the FMVSS will have a certification label affixed by the original manufacturer in the area of the driver-side door. To make importation easier, when purchasing a vehicle certified to the U.S. standards abroad, a buyer should have the sales contract verify that the label is attached and present this document at time of importation.

A vehicle without this certification label must be imported as a nonconforming vehicle. In this case, the importer must contract with a DOT-Registered Importer (RI) and post a DOT bond for one and a half times the vehicle�s dutiable value. This bond is in addition to the normal Customs entry bond. Copies of the DOT bond and the contract with an RI must be attached to the HS-7 form.

Under the contract, the RI will modify and certify that the vehicle conforms with all applicable FMVSS. Before an RI can modify a vehicle NHTSA must have determined that the vehicle is capable of being modified to comply with the FMVSS. If no determination has been made, the RI must petition NHTSA to determine whether the vehicle is capable of being modified to comply with the FMVSS. If the petitioned vehicle is not similar to one sold in the U.S., this process becomes very complex and costly. A list of vehicles previously determined eligible for importation may be obtained from an RI or from the NHTSA web site.

Since the cost of modifying a nonconforming vehicle, or the time required to bring it into conformance, may affect the decision to purchase a vehicle abroad, we strongly recommend discussing these aspects with an RI before buying and shipping a vehicle to the U.S.

For federal regulations concerning vehicle emissions contact the Environmental Protection Agency, Manufacturers Operations Division, EN-340, 401 M Street SW, Washington, DC 20460, (202) 564-9660, or http://www.epa.gov/otaq/imports/. Information concerning duty or other Customs matters can be obtained from the Classification and Value Division, U.S. Customs Service, Washington, DC 20229, (202)927-0300, or http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/xp/cgov/import/.

For information regarding registration or operation of a properly imported vehicle in a specific state, we advise you to contact the Department of Motor Vehicles or other appropriate agency in that state since the requirements vary by state.




[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 10-02-2003).]

[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 10-02-2003).]

There are plenty of CARB Cert high flow cats that would fit on the SI. It could pass emission. The rest is scary!!

Johnny,
Cats are only a small part of EPA emissions compliance. For example, tests include engine compartment "vapors" in and around the exhaust pipes, carb or EFI system in both cold and hot start modes.
Feeding from exhaust manifold (read custom made headers) to air canisters might be required. The essence of this issue is, an ICI must "know" what is required to federalize a Ford 302 from scratch. None do because the engine as delivered from the factory to production cars already complies. They NEVER worked on one. No ICI imports foreign cars with American engines. Mercedes, Ferrari et al yes, but Fords? No.
So, even if they research and agree to do it and they don't get it right, you have a real serious problem. I know it can be done, but its gonna cost somebody the price of a car to do it from start to finish.

And, all of this presumes you can convince the DOT committee that the car qualifies under show and display, which I am directly informed by DOT is highly unlikely at best.

Charlie McCall writes:
I agree you'd have to be brave to try to get through the red tape to import an Si, but it was supplied with a EPA-legal Ford Mustang 5.0, so there should be no need to pull the engine, right? I know they are street legal in Switzerland, and they are the California of Europe (super strict emissions requirements).

Charlie:
The GTSI in question is in Germany not Switzerland so some further differences are in play. Also, I am reliably informed this particular car has a modified 400 hp Cleveland not the 302 which vastly compounds the problem of smogging it to 1990's standards. If you have seen the mass of equipment on a US Amerisport GT5-S, none of which is readily available today, imagine the time, expense and trouble in finding someone to design and fabricate it. And if, in the end it dosen't comply????

[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 10-08-2003).]

[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 10-08-2003).]

quote:

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Originally posted by phill1:
Charlie McCall writes:
I agree you'd have to be brave to try to get through the red tape to import an Si, but it was supplied with a EPA-legal Ford Mustang 5.0, so there should be no need to pull the engine, right? I know they are street legal in Switzerland, and they are the California of Europe (super strict emissions requirements).

Charlie:
The GTSI in question is in Germany not Switzerland so some further differences are in play. Also, I am reliably informed this particular car has a modified 400 hp Cleveland not the 302 which vastly compounds the problem of smogging it to 1990's standards. If you have seen the mass of equipment on a US Amerisport GT5-S, none of which is readily available today, imagine the time, expense and trouble in finding someone to design and fabricate it. And if, in the end it dosen't comply????

[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 10-08-2003).]

[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 10-08-2003).]

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Okay let me fire up the dicussion. I was told sometime ago that I could very easily bring the car in, should I decide to move to the US. I was told I could possibly register the car in Montana. There is actually one owner who has used this approach for a Guara. He is one of the lucky ones to have such a beauty in the US.

I know Phil is trying hard to make it out as a nearly impossible car to register, but anybody who wants to be the first to have such a beauty in the US, Canada, etc. will have to go through the trouble of importing such a car. This applies to every and any country in the World! And remember there are only 35 (on the street) of these Worldwide and there will only ever be these 35. So who ever has the car knows for sure that he/she has a safe and secure investment for the future and the only one todate in the US and Canada. There are none on the market and it would seem unlikely to be any one on the market for some time.

Phil will surely be able to confirm. Phil I wanted to ask what experience do you have in importing such cars? I realise you seem to know an awful lot about the various regulations. Does anybody have any contacts to other specialist importers that deal with exotic and unique cars? Remember many of the former Ferarri's and Maserati's that you see some time on the street where not made or intended for the US market. Yet you see them for sale and on the streets. Maserati interestingly was part of the DeTomaso empire and parts were used on the GTSi. For example the digital Air Con unit is the same as in the Maserati'.

In any case, it will be interesting to see when the first GTSi appears in the US or Canada. Enjoy!

Is there a 100% street legal Pantera GT Si ???
I do not think so!!!

I was the first to import a GT5s to Sweden in 1999 and after that experience I thought I know it all.
So I bought my first Pantera 90( As DeTomaso call them) #9631 in 2000 and imported it to Sweden and thought it to be an easy task.
At the registration test it completely failed the emission test HC=1100 (100) and CO=0.6 (0.3) and I slowly start to realize that things where not the way they where supposed to be.
The German papers (Brif) showed that the car had catalytic converters and so on, but that was all false and I later learned that it seams to be like that with all the 38 except for two of them.
The 5.0 Ford engine is not a standard engine, it is tuned for DeTomaso, with well ported heads and intake, SVO 1:1.7 roller rockers, hotter cam and most antipollution equipment like carbon-canister, catalytic converters, air pump, many computer related functions removed.
Learning all the tricks and regulations I sex month later past the test and had the first Pantera 90 on the road in Sweden.
In 2001 I imported the Guara that became an other story.
In May 2002 I bought my other Pantera 90 #9609, after 14 months and a new book of papers it past the registration without catalytic converters or any modifications, only a lot of paper work, that due to some new EU-regulations. I got the first road legal Pantera 90 w/o catalytic converters in Sweden.
Can the Pantera 90 be imported to the USA?
Yes I think so, and its safe! Percy (Phill1) you must trust me once again.
Best Regards
Kjell Jansson

Kjell, nice to hear from you again. If you review my postings carefully you will see that I would love to, and in fact, am seriously looking into the importation of an SI. Here are the facts, not opinions or surmises. Some things are legal with US DOT,EPA,Customs. Some are not. For example, US Customs will review the car at the border for general import compliance, not DOT/EPA regulation, not the state of Montana. Montana is not responsible for enforcing DOT rules unless a deficiency is brought to their attention. Can you bring the car in without engine as a "roller", YES! But Federal law, DOT & EPA, which supercedes all State Law, Forbids a car on the road without compliance regardless if any State has issued a title. A State title does not exempt a car from Federal Standards. To lawfully import the SI you MUST get DOT approval or apply for racing only (in which case it must be a bona fide race car) or show and display with prior DOT approval. The DOT committee in the past has determined that DeTomaso's, all of them, have no automotive historical signifcance nor do they embody unusual or unique (compared to the rest of the automotive world) technological merit. However, members of the commitee change over time and anyone is free to make application for approval and could get lucky.

Next, you must pass EPA emissions tests at a certified lab with an ICI agreeing to do it ahead of time. Please let me know an ICI that says they WILL, not try, to do this. You must comply with both EPA and DOT or the car is illegal.

So, assuming you cannot find a registered importer to do the job and or an ICI to handle the emissions, it leaves directly importing the car (too chancy) as is or the roller method.

If this method is chosen and a State issues a title (which they will) and the car at some time comes under DOT inspection for some reason(which I agree is unlikely)you will have an illegal import in the DOT's eyes. They will seize it and you will have thirty days to bring it into compliance.

I have said all along that I believe this can be done, but no matter which way you go, it will be expensive and possibly involve some risk if the roller method is chosen.

The overiding point I am trying to make is that very carefull consideration of all the facts must be a part of this decision. You can't just decide to do it and "hope" it will work out. You had better know exactly the steps you will take and who the players will be.

[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 10-10-2003).]

Ok, barring the whole "historial significance" factor, which sounds like a total BS policy, it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to make the car emissions compliant.

The (now) old Porsche 959 is currently being imported to the US, with the necessary emissions equipment being put in place, stateside I believe too.

I can't help but to think if someone like Bill Gates or Jay Leno wanted one in the US, then it would happen much easier. Maybe that's the trick...find a rich, famous person to get one in, then the door is open for the rest!

Deat Derpantera, Any foreign citizen may import their non conforming car into the US for the period which they are here. But, they may not sell it here without qualifying it and they must take it home with them.

So yes, if you are Swiss or German you can bring a non compliant Koneigsegg, DeTomaso or whatever, but forgoing compliance it must go back with you.

There is an easier way to get the car into the US and have it licensed. The post about removing the engine is part of it. First the car must be taken apart. Remove engine, trans, interior & anything else. Ship it over in several containers - don't sell anything. When it gets over here apply for a title under the kit car rules in your state. Then put it back together. You probably think this idea is a bunch of #!?! It is being done every day, mainly with Austin Minis (the old one which was manufactured well into the 90's).

There is another way being done on Minis. Get the remains of an old car & rebody the new car with the old vin number. Some people us only the vin plate and attach it to the new car , which would be illegal. You might want to go to Minimania.com and look at some of there posts.