It looks like DB and Mc Leod no longer offer starters for Panteras. I'm looking at the Powermaster 9162 or 9504. Anyone have any experience with either one, and how difficult they are to install? Do the headers have to be removed, and if so, how hard is that? I do not know whose headers they are, if that makes a difference.

FWIW, I installed DB PMGR Starter PN#3223 in 2019. That PN still exist. Although, the application list doesn't include the Pantera.

Sounds like you could be boiling the fuel in the carb. When that happens you will get a very slow/hard crank or a almost no crank.  Easy to see go out for a drive and when you get back use a infra red temp gun and see what the temp is top of the intake compared to the carb base and bowls.

In my experience, the best starter for a 351C is made by Meziere. Compared to a Powermaster, the Meziere is longer but smaller in outside diameter. In my case, that gave me greater header to starter clearance. The Meziere also cranked my engine at a much higher RPM than the Powermaster. The only downside to the Meziere is the price. It is significantly more expensive than a Powermaster but if you want the best starter for your Pantera …

I took a look at the Meziere starter and it exudes quality. Have you actually installed one with headers and is it a direct fit? If so, what is their model #? And what's the story on the "nose" I see on some of the replacement starters? Do our original starters have it? I haven't pulled mine out yet.

@adam posted:

Sounds like you could be boiling the fuel in the carb. When that happens you will get a very slow/hard crank or a almost no crank.  Easy to see go out for a drive and when you get back use a infra red temp gun and see what the temp is top of the intake compared to the carb base and bowls.

If this is happening to you then adding an insulated gasket might fix it.  Here is one by Edelbrock.

Carburetor Heat Insulator #9265 Square Bore

@judgepaul posted:

I took a look at the Meziere starter and it exudes quality. Have you actually installed one with headers and is it a direct fit? If so, what is their model #? And what's the story on the "nose" I see on some of the replacement starters? Do our original starters have it? I haven't pulled mine out yet.

Flooded engine may be hard to start but not harder to crank.

Another thought. When the ignition is switched on with the engine hot, the fans come on. Not so with the engine cold. Could be the amp draw from the fans is diminishing what's available for the starter.

Since I don't recall this particular complaint back in the day, it could be I have a weak starter which is susceptible to this. It came with the car and the seller provided no service history, so the starter's provenance is unknown.

BTW, the battery is new and huge.

Still looking for answers to the questions above.

A engine hat has heat soaked will be harder to crank. Then again everyone's description of what it happening or understanding what is happening can be different.

Orig problem cold it starts right up which means it has a good starter cranking speed to start the engine.

Hot it wont turn over, which means what the starter does nothing or a slow crank or what.  Starters work or they dont.

I already have a carb spacer/insulator but out of curiousity, how would boiling fuel affect cranking?

I installed a 10 second time delay relay on the cooling fans (no extra wiring required just replace the existing cooling fan relay) and on the headlights!

it really makes a big difference in the hot crank rpm!!

I also installed an electric fuel pump with a built-in one way valve (fuel is getting fed around the mechanical fuel pump)  to give it a short prime before cranking… just a momentary pushbutton switch would do the trick!

and I put a heat protection sleeve over the fuel line…

And I did the 1/2” insulation spacer on the carburetor…

not sure which is the reason but the engine starts always within 2 seconds… no matter how hot….

...100% Manually Controlled Radiator Fans...are Turned ON Only After the Engine Is Running. Also, Electric Fuel Pump is used to Prime the Float Bowls then turned off For Starting. Starter Cranks 'OK' But Not so Fast, High Torque Starter. Cold or Hot, Does Not Matter. I have a replacement Starter, must get around to Installing It. A Very HIGH Compression Engine! Don't Know if New Starter will 'ZING' the Engine to Life?

Last...The Battery is ALWAYS on a Tender! Starts and Leaves the Garage at 12.7-12.2 Volts. Cruizes at 13.7 Volts, 3100 RPM (Freeway)...I Have seen it at 14.2 Volts, with ALL Electricals ON.

The Starter cranking Slow...It's The HEAT!!...Higher Resistance! Carb Flooding RICH, has Nothing to do with Cranking SPEED, ONLY the actual Firing-Up and Starting, as in (Flooded and/or Vapor-Lock)!

FLOODED, as in the Carburetor.

'Vapor-Lock', is in the Fuel LINE, usually from being Too close to the Header. And Between the Fuel Tank and the Pump, Or Between the Pump and the Carb. Like an 'Embolism', it 'Locks' to Fuel from Flowing! In 'The Old Days', we use to Wrap a Soaking Wet Rag around the Fuel Line, this would condense the 'Vapor' and Un-Lock the Fuel to Flow.

MJ

Great idea Le Mans850i! I'm going to try it. Thank you very much.

Thank you also marlinjack.

@judgepaul posted:

Great idea Le Mans850i! I'm going to try it. Thank you very much.

I did everything I know…

...One More thing about having FULL Control over the RAD Fans. ONLY if the Battery is 99%...with the Pantera Parked, and while you're in having your burger fires and drink, On a Very HOT Afternoon. You may leave 'One' Fan Running, with the Ign. Key and All other Electricals are OFF! for the Few Minutes. As You return and Start the Engine, It is 'Treated' to a Initial Flow of Cooled Coolant! But, Risky, and ONLY When the Battery is 'Healthy', and only for as Long as a Short 'Lunch'.

Good Luck with It!

@marlinjack posted:

...One More thing about having FULL Control over the RAD Fans. ONLY if the Battery is 99%...with the Pantera Parked, and while you're in having your burger fires and drink, On a Very HOT Afternoon. You may leave 'One' Fan Running, with the Ign. Key and All other Electricals are OFF! for the Few Minutes. As You return and Start the Engine, It is 'Treated' to a Initial Flow of Cooled Coolant! But, Risky, and ONLY When the Battery is 'Healthy', and only for as Long as a Short 'Lunch'.

Good Luck with It!

I think doing the same thing with a fan blowing on the engine extracting the hot air and getting cooler air in the engine compartment would have a bigger effect…

that 1 gallon of cooler water in the radiator will passed through the engine within 10 seconds..

I think…

@LeMans850i posted:

I did everything I know…

...The difference is I wired a Keyless Start. I don't even have a Ignition SWITCH!! When I turn on the Main shut-off, the Digital Gauges come on. I turn on the 'Hidden' Key switch, this activates the Distributor-less Ignition SPARK, AND The 'Detonator' Push-Button Switch for the Starter Solenoid for Starter Motor. NOTHING ELSE IS ENERGIZED, (must be out of reverse, keeps lights off, and Foot Off the Brakes, Brake Lights, Headlights-OFF) Until the Engine Fires UP!! One thing, If the 'Spark' Ignition switch is ON for One Minute...and the Engine has NOT Been Turned Over, It shuts Down and Must be Recycled!

Questions?? Please Ask!

@LeMans850i posted:

I think doing the same thing with a fan blowing on the engine extracting the hot air and getting cooler air in the engine compartment would have a bigger effect…

that 1 gallon of cooler water in the radiator will passed through the engine within 10 seconds..

I think…

...You're Thinking, Great! Why don't You Try that! Let Us Know How Efficiently that works!

The Efficiency, of what I do, can be Read Instantly on a Digital Gauge, when the Temperature Drops from 205F down to 188F...Instantly!! That Will ABSORB Heat from WITH-IN the Engine Block!

What You didn't catch was "The Engine is Treated with a Flow of Cooled Coolant!!" This Can and Will Absorb More Heat OUT of the Engine Block and Heads.

MJ

@marlinjack posted:

...You're Thinking Huh! Why don't You Try that! Let Me Know How Efficiently that works!

So far, it worked pretty well for me!
Throwing ideas out there and get a constructive feedback is a good thing…
I think…..

I never ever railroaded anyone just because they had an idea!!

My mechanical made a little heat shield for mine so it wouldn't overheat close to the exhaust (which it used to and not anymore)

@judgepaul posted:

I took a look at the Meziere starter and it exudes quality. Have you actually installed one with headers and is it a direct fit? If so, what is their model #? And what's the story on the "nose" I see on some of the replacement starters? Do our original starters have it? I haven't pulled mine out yet.

The Meziere starters are, indeed, very well made. Yes, I have actually installed one. It was easier than a Powermaster because the electric motor is smaller in diameter, albeit longer. Using studs rather than bolts makes installation easier too. I used a TS408 ($646 at Summit Racing). Complete specs, including pinion depth, are on the Meziere web site.

@marlinjack posted:

...I'm Not 'Railroading' Anybody. Whatever THAT Means?

I applaud your idea! I'm just Challenging you to take Your Idea from Theory to Reality. Just Like You Challenge My Theories that I Proved Work...Decades Ago, And in the Most Extreme Conditions...And Documented It, for the World to See!

Well, I guess you take it just a little bit serious…

for me is more like an experiment…

Now I need to know how you measured your successful findings so I can set up an equal measurement system so we can compare the results..

As for my setup, I will implement a relay to turn on the A/C condenser fan blowing outside air in the engine compartment once the engine is turned off and the A/C was used … as in “it’s a hot day” for up to 5 minutes… time can be adjusted down..

I did read your edited version above

I’ll give it a try…

(editing doesn’t change the quotes in the replies “Huh”)

Timing will definitively affect the cranking speed when hot.  You mentioned changing the timing but may be worth having another look while the car is running and not hot.

davidnunn: Did you install the Meziere in a Pantera, because the Summit "Check Fit" claims it isn't for a '72 Pantera?

Yes, I did. It replaced a Powermaster starter.

Any issues with the installation and how did it compare to the Powermaster?

No one answered your " how would boiling fuel effect cranking" well it is called  "vapor lock" which can significantly hinder the engines ability to crank.

And look no further than

https://www.pantera-electronics.com/

They have the Best ac controller out there for ANY application and He knows Pantera's

As a Great old school mechanic once told me, Fix one problem at a time or you will be in the middle of the forest and wont know how you got there and wont know how to get out.

@adam posted:

No one answered your " how would boiling fuel effect cranking" well it is called  "vapor lock" which can significantly hinder the engines ability to crank.

And look no further than

https://www.pantera-electronics.com/

They have the Best ac controller out there for ANY application and He knows Pantera's

As a Great old school mechanic once told me, Fix one problem at a time or you will be in the middle of the forest and wont know how you got there and wont know how to get out.

It doesn't hinder the ability to crank, it hinders the ability to fire off.

Yes it hinders the ability to fire but it will have a very slow. hard crank as well

I strongly disagree.

@adam posted:

Yes it hinders the ability to fire but it will have a very slow. hard crank as well

I am very interested why it should make a difference if it has vapor lock or if I pull the carburetor off (same effect ) …. I cannot find the reason why it should crank slower in any scenario regarding to fuel delivery.….….….…

are you thinking of hydro lock…??? Now that would effect the cranking speed!! But that’s a totally different animal..

I also agree with Forest (and others).

if the engine is having a cranking issue at “hot”, it is not due to vapor lock.

it is due to reduced starter performance in the heat (increased resistance in the windings, as MJ said), reduced starter efficiency, or advanced timing (but JP said he is running 10* vs. 17*…

if the vapor lock theory was true, cars that ran out of gas wouldn’t crank, no matter how hot (or cool) they were!

Rocky

It might also be because you cranked the heck out of your engine and now your battery has run down…

😎

Rocky, I knew you'd weigh in sooner or later. Look what I started.

Good to hear from you.

I have a Powermaster 9604 Starter Ford Small Block V8 164 Tooth 3/8 in Depth that runs great hot and cold on a 382CI engine with a measured true static ratio of 10.6/1 and advance reduced to 10° for starting.

I have a push button to operate it without having to turn the ignition on and when the engine has not been running for over 24 hours, I always run it with the starter without spark until the oil pressure light goes out, this takes well over 10 seconds and when I turn the ignition on, even though the starter is hot, it still cranks the engine always as fast and the engine starts instantly.

Thank you Rene4406.

The original McLoud et al gear drive mini-starters for the 351-C/Pantera were adaptions of a Mitsubishi starter with a custom nose. Sad to hear they are no longer being sold. Had mine since 1982, still works fine starting a smoking-hot 10-1/2:1 compression engine with a couple of turns. 

I replaced my Hall starter with a Bosch (#SR7548N) starter recommended by Forest Goodhart, and it quickly cranks my stock 351c almost up to idling speed at any temperature. Some re-wiring was necessary (as jotted on the box cover) and perhaps Forest will chime in with a better schematic for it.

All's well that ends well. I'd like to share my problem's solution with everyone. After making all the alterations noted above, while putting in a new Powermaster #9504, we discovered the wire from the solenoid to the starter was cooked. It wasn't obvious from a visual inspection. We replaced it and also ran a new positive cable directly to the new starter which has its own mounted solenoid. The old Ford starter was removed with just a removal of the header bolts on the one side.  The new one slipped right in with no mods required. Hot or cold, the engine now starts on the first revolution! Can't say enough good things about the starter and the Powermaster service. Made in the USA, and Steve promptly returned my call (twice!) He even offered to take me on a tour of their facility if I was ever in the Chicago area. This whole starter experience restored my faith in American industry and American workers. Who would have thought?

P.S. I love this hobby. More challenging than crossword puzzles and you meet the nicest people. Shout out to Rocky and Larry for their help in the past.