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Pantera Brake Improvements

R 1Rocketship (Guest)
o
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
One of my criteria is getting away from the original rotors just because of replacement costs.
I saw a Trans-am Mustang go through 4 sets of rotors and pads in "practice".

That is just not affordable with stock Pantera rotors.
Hello Doug; The Trans-am Mustang going through that many sets (4) of pads & rotors would indicate to myself that the current braking configeration is woefully under-designed, also worth noting is the intense heat build-up of the current system makes the brakes extremely "Fade Prone"....it would be the same if the car was blowing up transmissions, or snapping drive shafts...the brakes are over-stressed/taxed....brake fade into a hair-pin turn does NOT equate into the Checkered Flag.....Mark
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
o
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
One of my criteria is getting away from the original rotors just because of replacement costs.
I saw a Trans-am Mustang go through 4 sets of rotors and pads in "practice".

That is just not affordable with stock Pantera rotors.
Hello Doug; The Trans-am Mustang going through that many sets (4) of pads & rotors would indicate to myself that the current braking configeration is woefully under-designed, also worth noting is the intense heat build-up of the current system makes the brakes extremely "Fade Prone"....it would be the same if the car was blowing up transmissions, or snapping drive shafts...the brakes are over-stressed/taxed....brake fade into a hair-pin turn does NOT equate into the Checkered Flag.....Mark


It is a result of too much practice for a 20 minute race. 3 sessions a day for three days, THEN the race.

It was also on the Full 2.5 mile course at Virginia International Raceway. The course they normally only use for the motorcycles.

The course is fast and when you are running with the Ford MkI's and II's flat out, you tend to use up your brakes a little?

Pantera's would have a tough time with this because of the rear disc setup on the car.

The race trailer has a lift and an on the car rotor machine but you need to have something left to cut.

If you look at the pictures of the Gp4 cars they have 12 x 1.25" vented rotors all around. That helps some.

Those are also the Lincoln/Thunderbird rotors, at least originally that was the source, so they are as economical as you can get. Throw them away when you are done with them.

They are big enough that you need to micro cut them new on the car and index them to reduce the vibration from them on the car because of the inertia.

A bigger front spindle on the Pantera would help some for bearing longevity. The stock Pantera spindle is the size of the early Mustangs. The Trans-Am Mustang race cars use the 1970 and later spindle which is larger in outside diameter and helps a lot with wider tires and wheels.

There is no such animal for the Pantera.

No one here really wants to hear it, but if you compare the front end components on the Mustangs and the Pantera, it appears that the Pantera components are modeled after the Mustangs.

A lot of current cars use aftermarket 2 piece rotors and hubs. No argument from me on that but Wilwood's are not the preferred rotors of the racers I talk to?
Last edited by panteradoug
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
Hello Doug; Appreciate your insights & thoughtful response. Do you see much Ceramic braking systems at the track?..Also I feel it is NOT disparaging to point out flaws in the Pantera, is the Pantera a "Perfect" car?!....NO far from it, but it does provide it's owners a "Nice" platform to improve upon!!!....Interesting fact about the GT40's tremendous success at LeMans, was vastly attributed to the Ford engineer that came up with the system that allowed the rotors to be changed out in 10 minutes.....Mark
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Doug; Appreciate your insights & thoughtful response. Do you see much Ceramic braking systems at the track?..Also I feel it is NOT disparaging to point out flaws in the Pantera, is the Pantera a "Perfect" car?!....NO far from it, but it does provide it's owners a "Nice" platform to improve upon!!!....Interesting fact about the GT40's tremendous success at LeMans, was vastly attributed to the Ford engineer that came up with the system that allowed the rotors to be changed out in 10 minutes.....Mark


Yes it is a nice platform, and it comes from quite a blood line. I like it.

Ceramic on the pads do you mean? Porterfield R4 on the track and R4S on the street is what I see everyone run.

I use the street pads. A little pricey though.
panteradougpanteradougMember
I only know the Vintage Racers. They are restricted by the rules to what they can run. I never heard of ceramic rotors being used by any of these cars during the era.

The Mustangs all seem to be using the Trans-Am Mustang brake setups that are outlined in Fords "Boss 302 Chassis" racing booklet, Stage III.

They apparently are allowed substitutions like the two piece rotors but they are all using the big Lincoln calipers with the Porterfield race pads, F250 master cylinder with 1-1/4" bore. Rotors are vented 12x 1.25".

Ceramic rotors I think are current technology for the current slot cars.

In some cases racing Vintage is like comparing a canvas skined bi-plane to the Space shuttle, but that's kinda in the point.

There is a little of that here with the Pantera, as far as how the owner conceives of his car I suppose.

It's kinda like a 60 year old guy hanging out at the bar trying to impress 20 something women. I guess some of the girls need glasses?
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
Hello Doug; I didn't realize that "We" were discussing "Vintage Racing", as I now understand. How is it possible for the Pantera/s to run Thunderbird rotors in "Vintage" if that was NOT Factory installed/equipped?!....or for that matter..."Any Changes/Alterations"?!....Mark
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Doug; I didn't realize that "We" were discussing "Vintage Racing", as I now understand. How is it possible for the Pantera/s to run Thunderbird rotors in "Vintage" if that was NOT Factory installed/equipped?!....or for that matter..."Any Changes/Alterations"?!....Mark


Gp4 cars ran them in the day. Look at the pictures of the brakes on the "Candy" Gp4. They show them pretty clearly.
rockyrockyMember
Has anyone tried these pads for their stock, rear calipers?

I think they have the correct form factor (although they would not have the correct piston stop on the back of the pad).

I know... "Stock Rear Calipers Suck"...

But that's what I have now, and the organic pads wear very quickly.

POTENTIAL replacement for stock rear pads


For those with deeper pocketbooks, the Porterfield GD535 pads are recommended.

To take it to the Next Level, read the front of this thread for contact info for vendors selling 4 piston rear caliper upgrades (but you still have to keep your stock calipers if you want an e-Brake, or the price goes up again for the IPSCO or other eBrake system).
panteradougpanteradougMember
The problem is that even the Porterfield R4s street pads are very hard compared to a "metallic lining".

What you will feel with them on the street is a seemingly unresponsive pad until you get them warmed up.

That's the "s", street pad too. The race pad, you would likely kill youself and someone else with. Those need to get nearly red hot to work at all?

So far I am still searching for a pad. The HD "taxi cab" compound pads may be the best compromise?
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Rocky, a few people (very few!) have adapted rear pads from the Porsche 914 to stock Pantera rear calipers. Then 914 rear pads can be had in several compounds from places like PelicanParts.com. Virtually no one makes performance pads for the Peugeot 205- which is where our stock rear calipers were sourced.

Finding the right compound for your driving use & style will be a try-it-and-see exercise that may cost more than changing to real rear calipers & vented rotors. And the stock Pantera brake plumbing biases more pressure to the rear while the excellent fronts are mostly along for the ride. This is exactly backward to all other cars on the road, for reasons known only to Ford engineering. To do what you want WILL require some parts swapping.... or going slower.

On the 914, their rear pads sort-of work OK but that car can be 1000 lbs lighter than your Pantera. So don't expect miracles: you need new pads to work better without wearing out the rotors too fast; normally you get one or the other. I would CALL Porterfield in CA on the phone and discuss options.
panteradougpanteradougMember
The graph actually confirms what I am saying about the Porterfields.

You need to get them hot to make them work. 300F is very hot if you ask me.

This doesn't build confidence in the brakes when you jump in the car and just want to go around the block in it.

It would actually be nice to see that graph continued with other alternatives in comparison but I think the source IS Porterfield themselves.

I think to put the temps in perspective, header tubes will start to glow red around 700 degrees.

The temps needed to be "effective" for what you paid for concerns me in say a wet driving scenario where the rain is keeping the brakes from even warming up to 300?

As BWrench says, it really is a matter of testing different pads to find what you like?

Looking at the chart again, there isn't much difference between the R4 and the R4S as I read it and the R4's are DEFINITELY just plain dangerous on the street.

Not everything "high performance" is better. Wink
P punkdogMember

Wow. I am new to Panteras and by far no expert on brake systems so that renders me unqualified to comment.

What I do know and have seen from my years in aviation is that often a manufacturer will sacrifice performance to bring their product into line with the ability of average or below pilots / drivers. Most are not professional drivers or driving on a track at excessive speeds. I am sure the Tamaso engineers applied a lot of thought and experience when designing the brakes system. I would bet that the valve was used to make the system safer for the average driver in average conditions and was a cost consideration so those alone would leave plenty of room for performance improvements. But how many of us are going to throw their metal mistress around to the point of experancing true heat induced brake fade ? Not me. Those days are in my past and the car is too valuable.

Also what is good on a race track is not always good for a street machine. Putting a NASCAR engine in your Pantera would make a miserable street machine of which you would probably never realize the performance aspect. You want to pay how much for what ? I remember one of my customers complaining that his Fararri needed a $13,000.00 brake job. He said that the car seldom sees fourth gear in LA but you gotta have brakes.

It is a owners prerogative what they do to their car but a guy like me without unlimited funds has to consider upgrades in a cost to real world benefit ratio. I don't need ceramic or carbon fiber brakes. I would much rather have a anti skid system for the cost. Of the brake system upgrades available the ones I would never consider are those that eliminate the emergency hand brake. NFW that's race track stuff not for a street machine.  Be smart and think safety because of all things Pantera as with all cars brakes are number one. If you have ever driven ice you'll know that helpless feeling of no brakes.

George PGeorge PAdmin.

Hurst/Airheart, a leading manufacturer of racing brakes, tested the OEM Pantera brakes back in the 1970s. The first stop from 60 mph required 219 feet and 225 pounds of pedal effort, which is an extremely high amount of pedal effort. With each consecutive stop both the braking distance and the pedal effort decreased. Upon the eighth consecutive stop the Pantera achieved its advertised stopping distance of 133 feet (from 60 mph), and pedal effort had fallen to 115 pounds. Of course, in a “real world” situation such as a “panic stop” a driver does not have the opportunity to “pre-heat” the brakes with seven practice stops.

As the test progressed brake-fade set-in with the next (ninth) consecutive stop. There was therefore a fine line between optimum braking performance and the on-set of brake fade. One last point I wish to mention, Hurst/Airheart concluded from their test that a Pantera’s ultimate stopping capability had the peculiar trait of being limited by the brakes, rather than being limited by the amount of traction provided by the tires (PI News, volume 3, no.4, pages 27-32).

Citing this test, Pantera International’s founder Fred Matsumoto referred to performing a panic stop with the Pantera’s OEM brakes as a religious effort; he wrote you stomp on the brake pedal and PRAY that you stop in time (PI News, volume 14, no.2, page 14)!

It befuddles me that these are the same brakes that some magazine testers praised, in fact one tester described them as “the best production car brakes in the world” (Motor Trend, March 1972, page 106).

Doug, be mindful of the fact that your GT5 is equipped with the same brakes as the Group 3 racing Panteras, the brakes are quite a bit better off than those fitted to the Ford Era narrow body versions.

Last edited by George P
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member

A fixed as opposed to adjustable proportioning valve is designed for a ...specific... car. If you have changed wheel size or brakes the proportioning valve in your Pantera is most likely not correct for the new performance of your car.

Swapping a look-alike proportioning valve is definitely something I would not recommend.  

You should perform full maintenance on your brakes and then evaluate performance before you start considering removing components. 

my 2¢

Larry

Last edited by lf-tp2511
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