Sticky #5: Pantera Brakes

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quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
One of my criteria is getting away from the original rotors just because of replacement costs.
I saw a Trans-am Mustang go through 4 sets of rotors and pads in "practice".

That is just not affordable with stock Pantera rotors.
Hello Doug; The Trans-am Mustang going through that many sets (4) of pads & rotors would indicate to myself that the current braking configeration is woefully under-designed, also worth noting is the intense heat build-up of the current system makes the brakes extremely "Fade Prone"....it would be the same if the car was blowing up transmissions, or snapping drive shafts...the brakes are over-stressed/taxed....brake fade into a hair-pin turn does NOT equate into the Checkered Flag.....Mark
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
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quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
One of my criteria is getting away from the original rotors just because of replacement costs.
I saw a Trans-am Mustang go through 4 sets of rotors and pads in "practice".

That is just not affordable with stock Pantera rotors.
Hello Doug; The Trans-am Mustang going through that many sets (4) of pads & rotors would indicate to myself that the current braking configeration is woefully under-designed, also worth noting is the intense heat build-up of the current system makes the brakes extremely "Fade Prone"....it would be the same if the car was blowing up transmissions, or snapping drive shafts...the brakes are over-stressed/taxed....brake fade into a hair-pin turn does NOT equate into the Checkered Flag.....Mark


It is a result of too much practice for a 20 minute race. 3 sessions a day for three days, THEN the race.

It was also on the Full 2.5 mile course at Virginia International Raceway. The course they normally only use for the motorcycles.

The course is fast and when you are running with the Ford MkI's and II's flat out, you tend to use up your brakes a little?

Pantera's would have a tough time with this because of the rear disc setup on the car.

The race trailer has a lift and an on the car rotor machine but you need to have something left to cut.

If you look at the pictures of the Gp4 cars they have 12 x 1.25" vented rotors all around. That helps some.

Those are also the Lincoln/Thunderbird rotors, at least originally that was the source, so they are as economical as you can get. Throw them away when you are done with them.

They are big enough that you need to micro cut them new on the car and index them to reduce the vibration from them on the car because of the inertia.

A bigger front spindle on the Pantera would help some for bearing longevity. The stock Pantera spindle is the size of the early Mustangs. The Trans-Am Mustang race cars use the 1970 and later spindle which is larger in outside diameter and helps a lot with wider tires and wheels.

There is no such animal for the Pantera.

No one here really wants to hear it, but if you compare the front end components on the Mustangs and the Pantera, it appears that the Pantera components are modeled after the Mustangs.

A lot of current cars use aftermarket 2 piece rotors and hubs. No argument from me on that but Wilwood's are not the preferred rotors of the racers I talk to?
Hello Doug; Appreciate your insights & thoughtful response. Do you see much Ceramic braking systems at the track?..Also I feel it is NOT disparaging to point out flaws in the Pantera, is the Pantera a "Perfect" car?!....NO far from it, but it does provide it's owners a "Nice" platform to improve upon!!!....Interesting fact about the GT40's tremendous success at LeMans, was vastly attributed to the Ford engineer that came up with the system that allowed the rotors to be changed out in 10 minutes.....Mark
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Doug; Appreciate your insights & thoughtful response. Do you see much Ceramic braking systems at the track?..Also I feel it is NOT disparaging to point out flaws in the Pantera, is the Pantera a "Perfect" car?!....NO far from it, but it does provide it's owners a "Nice" platform to improve upon!!!....Interesting fact about the GT40's tremendous success at LeMans, was vastly attributed to the Ford engineer that came up with the system that allowed the rotors to be changed out in 10 minutes.....Mark


Yes it is a nice platform, and it comes from quite a blood line. I like it.

Ceramic on the pads do you mean? Porterfield R4 on the track and R4S on the street is what I see everyone run.

I use the street pads. A little pricey though.
I only know the Vintage Racers. They are restricted by the rules to what they can run. I never heard of ceramic rotors being used by any of these cars during the era.

The Mustangs all seem to be using the Trans-Am Mustang brake setups that are outlined in Fords "Boss 302 Chassis" racing booklet, Stage III.

They apparently are allowed substitutions like the two piece rotors but they are all using the big Lincoln calipers with the Porterfield race pads, F250 master cylinder with 1-1/4" bore. Rotors are vented 12x 1.25".

Ceramic rotors I think are current technology for the current slot cars.

In some cases racing Vintage is like comparing a canvas skined bi-plane to the Space shuttle, but that's kinda in the point.

There is a little of that here with the Pantera, as far as how the owner conceives of his car I suppose.

It's kinda like a 60 year old guy hanging out at the bar trying to impress 20 something women. I guess some of the girls need glasses?
Hello Doug; I didn't realize that "We" were discussing "Vintage Racing", as I now understand. How is it possible for the Pantera/s to run Thunderbird rotors in "Vintage" if that was NOT Factory installed/equipped?!....or for that matter..."Any Changes/Alterations"?!....Mark
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Doug; I didn't realize that "We" were discussing "Vintage Racing", as I now understand. How is it possible for the Pantera/s to run Thunderbird rotors in "Vintage" if that was NOT Factory installed/equipped?!....or for that matter..."Any Changes/Alterations"?!....Mark


Gp4 cars ran them in the day. Look at the pictures of the brakes on the "Candy" Gp4. They show them pretty clearly.
Has anyone tried these pads for their stock, rear calipers?

I think they have the correct form factor (although they would not have the correct piston stop on the back of the pad).

I know... "Stock Rear Calipers Suck"...

But that's what I have now, and the organic pads wear very quickly.

POTENTIAL replacement for stock rear pads


For those with deeper pocketbooks, the Porterfield GD535 pads are recommended.

To take it to the Next Level, read the front of this thread for contact info for vendors selling 4 piston rear caliper upgrades (but you still have to keep your stock calipers if you want an e-Brake, or the price goes up again for the IPSCO or other eBrake system).
The problem is that even the Porterfield R4s street pads are very hard compared to a "metallic lining".

What you will feel with them on the street is a seemingly unresponsive pad until you get them warmed up.

That's the "s", street pad too. The race pad, you would likely kill youself and someone else with. Those need to get nearly red hot to work at all?

So far I am still searching for a pad. The HD "taxi cab" compound pads may be the best compromise?
Rocky, a few people (very few!) have adapted rear pads from the Porsche 914 to stock Pantera rear calipers. Then 914 rear pads can be had in several compounds from places like PelicanParts.com. Virtually no one makes performance pads for the Peugeot 205- which is where our stock rear calipers were sourced.

Finding the right compound for your driving use & style will be a try-it-and-see exercise that may cost more than changing to real rear calipers & vented rotors. And the stock Pantera brake plumbing biases more pressure to the rear while the excellent fronts are mostly along for the ride. This is exactly backward to all other cars on the road, for reasons known only to Ford engineering. To do what you want WILL require some parts swapping.... or going slower.

On the 914, their rear pads sort-of work OK but that car can be 1000 lbs lighter than your Pantera. So don't expect miracles: you need new pads to work better without wearing out the rotors too fast; normally you get one or the other. I would CALL Porterfield in CA on the phone and discuss options.
The graph actually confirms what I am saying about the Porterfields.

You need to get them hot to make them work. 300F is very hot if you ask me.

This doesn't build confidence in the brakes when you jump in the car and just want to go around the block in it.

It would actually be nice to see that graph continued with other alternatives in comparison but I think the source IS Porterfield themselves.

I think to put the temps in perspective, header tubes will start to glow red around 700 degrees.

The temps needed to be "effective" for what you paid for concerns me in say a wet driving scenario where the rain is keeping the brakes from even warming up to 300?

As BWrench says, it really is a matter of testing different pads to find what you like?

Looking at the chart again, there isn't much difference between the R4 and the R4S as I read it and the R4's are DEFINITELY just plain dangerous on the street.

Not everything "high performance" is better. Wink

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