The death of an engine

Interesting... so what does keep the sleeves from turning?

With the Wydendorf kit, the bushings are an interference fit….  IIRC. you use a insertion tool, and drive them in.

I am not sure how LeMan’s bushings were prepared & installed…

Rocky

@rocky posted:

With the Wydendorf kit, the bushings are an interference fit…. IIRC. you use a insertion tool, and drive them in.

I am not sure how LeMan’s bushings were prepared & installed…

Rocky

In fact, the bronze sleeves are hammered in with a special tool so as not to damage them.

If they are turning easily in their bores, then they are either too small of an outside diameter or the lifter bores were cut too large.

These bushings properly installed using the Wydendorf kit are "press fits". There is a Loctite adhesive that is supplied with the kit as well as an installation tool that you drive (tap in) the bushing.

It is also imperative that the oil holes in the sleeve inserts align with the oil passages in the block.

Take your pick of why the sleeves are loose from the above? I didn't think anyone following instructions could possibly screw the installation up?

If using the lifter bore restriction sleeves, you don't use the Moroso oil passage restrictions any more.

As far as refinishing the crankshaft journals, most racers feel uncomfortable at using more then a .010" undersized journal.

The reason being that they feel that there is a point at which the bearing itself becomes to malleable and will compress too much encouraging bearing failure under racing conditions.

This could be a good time to consider putting a stroker kit in?

It looks to me that the 8 sleeves are homemade… so to save the block another set of sleeves has to be made to fit the existing bores on this side…

What is the size of the outside of the sleeve and the restriction hole on the Wydendorf kit… anyone knows??

Contact Wyandorf. They can give you the specs on the od of the sleeves. You can ask them if they can supply sleeves for the overbore once you know what that number is.

I would think that they can.

I think that the oil hole is around .061" but there was previous discussion here by some of our Pantera brethren that have done the installation.

I'm pretty sure that Rocky has done a kit installation.

I have not. My engine was built before those kits became available.

I am thinking though that if the sleeves were "homemade" perhaps they did not machine out the existing lifter bores and instead machined the inserts to fit the stock bores? If that is so, you are in luck.

You would just need a new kit and not need anything custom made for you.

You should disassemble the block though so that you can be sure that no metal filings get into any of the other assemblies.

Good luck!

Wydendorf having delivered me 18 sleeves, I was able to measure one that remains: 25.45 mm
I also measured the diameter of the reamer for the block: 25.37 mm
The reamer that is used, after having pushed the sleeves into the block, to obtain the correct internal bore measures 22.21 mm and the pushers measure 22.20 mm.
We see that there is 0.08 mm of clamping between the block and the sleeves, which is a lot and only 0.01 mm of clearance between the sleeves and the pushers, which is little.
In fact, as the reamers are used with a hand-held electric drill, the bores obtained are very slightly larger than the reamers and the reamer for the block having already been used for 16 housings is perhaps very slightly worn.

If you need custom sleeves, maybe if you ask Marlinjack very very nicely he will agree to make them for you and you can be sure that they will be accurate to 0.00......1 inch.

There are three reasons for sleeving 351-C lifter bores. The first is to correct extreme wear due to high mileage or high rpms resulting in egg-shaped holes in the cast iron block, and resultant multiple pressure leaks. The second is to reduce the monstrous cast holes feeding the lifters to a more reasonable size for high speed oiling improvements. The third is to correct lifter bore angles relative to the camshaft and crank. Only #1 is important for street cars, mostly to try and rescue a worn out block.

BBCs are notorious for factory mis-drilled lifter bore angles while Clevelands are usually darn close to blueprint specs. Note both are stagger-valve performance V-8s. BHJ's expensive fixtures and jigs allows indicating what you have with precision measuring tools, then boring and honing the bushings at the proper angle and size to correct this if necessary, not just assuming the factory angles were all perfect 50+ years ago. I'm unfamiliar with Wydendorf's requirements.

I would never consider doing this at home- even with the BHJ fixtures, and I own a small, complete machine shop with 40 years of experience. This is not a hand drill/hone job but a pro racing machinist's job with the proper tools. Preferably someone that's successfully done it a few times before so he doesn't have to learn on your block at $125+/hr (with results as mentioned).

I sincerely hope this butchered block is able to be rescued. Usable factory ones are not easy to find these days. You may find that one of Tim Meyer's or Drag-Boss Garage's new replacement iron or aluminum blocks will be cheaper and better. Good luck-

The Wydendorf kit is designed on the principle that the original bores have the correct angles since the reamer guides itself into the existing holes.

When I removed my camshaft following a broken tappet, I was able to see that the trace of the roller is well centered and has the same width on all the cams which means that the bores are indeed perpendicular to the axis of the camshaft. In addition, the rollers are not cylindrical but slightly spherical, which compensates for small defects in perpendicularity.

On the other hand I have not checked the maximum opening angle of the valves of all the cylinders and I can therefore not affirm that the bores all have the correct angle in relation to the axis of the cylinders.

I had forgotten about the Meyers blocks since I haven't heard mention of them in quite a while.

I went looking for their current prices and found no information on that?

Do any of you know the current block prices? They are not posted on Meyers web  page.

@LeMans850i posted:

What is the size of the outside of the sleeve and the restriction hole on the Wydendorf kit… anyone knows??

.
Roland I am sorry to read of your discovery.

The bushings have nominal dimensions of 1.002 inch OD, 0.875 inch ID, and 1.500 inch length. Bunting CB141612, cast bronze, SAE 660 plain sleeve bearings (i.e. bushings) are one possible source. If you purchase oilite bushings from Dennis Wydendorf I believe he machines them to 1.0025 inch OD.

The orifices (restriction holes) should be ¹⁄₁₆ inch for solid tappets, up to ³⁄₃₂ inch for hydraulic tappets. Ford's bushings had 0.060 inch orifices' (¹⁄₁₆ inch). Frankly, 0.060 is overkill for solid tappets, when you purchase restrictor push rods they have 0.040 inch orifices. But there is a concern for small orifices plugging-up with debris. I originally installed solid tappets in my first 351C engine (circa 1978) and later swapped them for hydraulic tappets; the 0.060 orifices worked fine with Johnson hydraulic tappets. But ³⁄₃₂ inch is a good "general" recommendation that should take care of hydraulic tappets with high demand for oil.

The tappet bores should be enlarged to 1.000 inch, therefore there shall be an 0.002 inch interference fit with the bushings. IF the tappet bores are enlarged beyond 1.000 inch, then the larger OD bushings shall protrude too far into the oil passages, and restrict the flow of oil. Thus, if the tappet bores have been enlarged greater than 1.000 inch the block has been ruined.

The 351C is tough on bearings. Installation of thin wall bushings in all 16 tappet bores is actually beneficial for any 351C, in any application, including mundane low rpm transportation duty. They are not just for high rpm, or race engine applications.

However, installation of only 8 bushings only seals up 50% of the leakage issues, the amount of oil delivered to the main bearings is not maximized. 8 bushings only fix tappet compatibility issues on one side of the block, and they only meter oil to the valve train on one side of the block. It makes no sense.

When only 8 bushings are installed a restrictor is also installed back at the no. 5 main journal, to restrict the amount of oil flowing to the entire left side of the engine. The result is left side hydraulic tappets randomly collapsing.

The whole idea of doing this at home was started by Ford, as they sold the original kit back in 1974. By the mid 1980s I had done several engines, never any problem. The Wydendorf kit is a much more thorough kit than Ford's was, with better tools.

-G

Hello George, nice to read you again.

Don't you think that if the housings are only a few thousandths of an inch too much, the oil passage section remains sufficient and that it is possible to save the block with custom-made sleeves?

@rene4406 posted:

Don't you think that if the housings are only a few thousandths of an inch too much, the oil passage section remains sufficient and that it is possible to save the block with custom-made sleeves?

.
correct a few thousandths would be no problem. I'm betting they are much bigger than that.

-G

If you really need to rescue a particular block that's ratted out too much for stock 0.875" OD Ford lifters & bushings, you can have Chrysler-sized 0.904" lifters installed with their necessarily huge bushings. I've even heard of custom lifters that are 0.916" OD. On some blocks (like BBCs Chevys with slightly off-center lifter holes and stock 0.843" OD size), oversized Chrysler-type bushings can get perilously close to the side of the cast iron lifter bosses, reducing lifter support with big valve springs. Again, all this IMHO is a pro race machine shop job.

If you do this, you really should change to a custom ground cam to accommodate the enlarged lifter size. Bullet Cams and probably others grind these for Ford & Chev go-fasters. Racers like them because larger dia lifters allows using a more aggressive flat-tappet lift profile and slightly softer springs without risking tearing up cam lobe flanks. Any advantage is largely wasted with roller cams and with street grinds, and a full conversion is quite expensive since it includes a custom cam. But it does work if a new block is out of the question for some reason.

@panteradoug posted:

I had forgotten about the Meyers blocks since I haven't heard mention of them in quite a while.

I went looking for their current prices and found no information on that?

Do any of you know the current block prices? They are not posted on Meyers web  page.

Not sure since I'm not in the market, having a Fontana aluminum block I can't quite afford to finish up yet. I think the new racing cast iron 351-C block available thru Drag Boss Garage is being made by Tim Meyers- or at least by the cast iron foundary he uses/used. Did you call?

Just leaving this here. Tim has a dedicated 351 Cleveland channel. I've emailed for advice and he's always been helpful. I've even purchased a rare intake from him.

https://www.youtube.com/@DragBoss351Cleveland

@DaveT posted:

Just leaving this here. Tim has a dedicated 351 Cleveland channel. I've emailed for advice and he's always been helpful. I've even purchased a rare intake from him.

https://www.youtube.com/@DragBoss351Cleveland

I wonder how much do blocks go for?

A few years back, Tim Meyers was advertising fully machined aluminum blocks for $3495. At that time the iron blocks were still in development. Don't know the prices today but I believe his phone still works.

Incidentally, his and Drag Boss's blocks are cast a lot thicker walled than Ford did so they can be bored MUCH bigger than stock. This makes them ideal for a 427 stroker Cleveland with improved oiling, if you want buckets of power that looks near-stock.

There were just recently two brand new XE blocks for sale locally here. One was listed at $5,000 and one at $1,700. Both disappeared almost instantly from their listings. One on Long Island for $3,500, last year so there isn't even agreement on their value.

There is also a listing on Facebook for a used one that needs repair and may already be at it's maximum overbore for $1,100, that has been listed for 10 weeks or so and is languishing at that number.

I appreciate their desirability but am not sure why they would be in such demand considering racing demand for a 351c is as Drag Boss says, just a 50 year old historical artifact that has no professional value today?

Those XE blocks were $750 new from Ford Service Parts. There aren't many of them simply because production wise there was little demand for them new except for the NASCAR crowd which likely numbers in a few hundred?

There is some discussion of a high rejection rate in the racing quality necessary of the bare castings at the foundry in Geelong, Australia, for the inability to produce racing quality castings and those rejected going into production vehicles in Australia. Those finding their way into the used aftermarket. The main complaint being casting shift of the cylinders.

The blocks qualified for racing sold by Ford  here all were supplied with sonic test results of the cylinder thicknesses attached to each block and documentation of who the selling Ford dealer was.

Gary Hall's choice was the aluminum Fontana block.

I appreciate the attempts of Drag Boss's videos but he just has this overwhelming tendency of entertaining himself with pointless dribble and taking forever to get to the important details. I never heard him state that he was supplying anything and Meyer completely avoids quoting block prices publically and stating details of any of his blocks.

He could say that they are improvements of the XE blocks with some additional improvements but maybe I just have difficulty in paying attention?

All an interesting phenomena. Exactly where is this expansive market for new aftermarket race quality Cleveland blocks? I missed that somehow?

I was thinking the same thing… Is there a major run on Cleveland Engine blocks now… I will not go that route.. I’m gonna try to keep my “original” 4 Bolt main Cleveland block..

Regarding all your comments:
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