Vintage racing brakes

Hi, BGDevelopments in the UK build the original design Girling 18/4 and 16/4 calipers as originally fit in the race Panteras.

Good luck.

thank you,
I recently got the same information ...

regards
Philippe

They, Simon, just quoted me for the calipers. 550 English pounds, or about $852 each at todays exchange rate. OUCH!

Is this the sort of set up you're looking for?

another

another. I got the other side too. They came from a Maserati Quattroport. Pretty hefty.

The rear calipers are similar, but without the spacer in the caliper so they'll fit the .810" rotors. Same funky little scissor e-brake thingie as I've seen in pictures of the P-car versions.

Next winter I'm going to see how they fit on my car.

I know where there's more.

Are these iron or aluminum? Are they Girling?

What is the bolt mounting spacing to the spindle?

Tell us more about these Maserati calipers please.

Yes I would say that the aluminum spacer is the unique part for the Group 4, 18/4, 16/4 brake calipers.

Problem is Girling went out of business a while ago and someone purchased rights to the parts. These are all million dollar race cars and "continuation" cars that they are being built for now.

The Girling 18/4, and 16/4 aren't exactly earth shattering technology. They were used on the Ford GT40's. the Lola T70 and other GT race cars.

Frankly if I didn't know what they were used on I'd think that the pistons were a little small for the fronts just looking at them, but hey, who am I to argue with success?

There are definitely better calipers made now but the 18/4 & 16/4 are ORIGINAL VINTAGE yestertech for the European GT race car set of the era.

You may also find them fitted to some of the Group 3 Panteras too. The problem with the Gp3's is that Detomaso didn't document them well and they are subject to individual customer preferences.

They're definitely iron. The spacer section is iron too. The assembly shown weighs 68 lbs.

Add a wheel and tire and you're at a 100+ lbs. Yipes. Folks think the stock four piston Girlings are heavy?

No visible manufacturers mark on them. The caliper mounting bolts are 3.5" apart.

The spindles are 8.625" tall out to out.

Thanks for the pictures
I'm waiting for BGDevelopments ...

Those ball joints, spindle and steering arm sure do look very, very familiar.

That's what I thought.

Brand new from BG Developments

Nice. Got more pictures?

Yes, just this one

Amazing the caliper is so big but the pads and pistons are so small. How much does the caliper weigh?

I asked also...very, very pricey for being period correct?

I don't know the weight, nor have I even seen them. The garage that is building the car is about 300Km from here and haven't had the time to check it on site. But I'm pretty sure the calipers are light. The surface of the pads is limited by the FIA file of "back then" and in historic racing, you have to stick to those things. If you put in modern calipers, it's like putting in electronic fuel injection, works better but shouldn't be on that car.

In fact the calipers are virtually the same size as the Porsche 930 or the 917 for that matter.

They seem to be on virually every Euro GT of the era. There has to be a reason.

I hadn't heard of the 917 on the list?

They are on the Gulf version of the GT40s too. The earlier versions used the Cobra race calipers.

The only caliper still a mystery to me is the one on the Mark II GT40, i.e., the 427 cars. They used a different (according to the press) one I haven't seen. Still haven't seen a picture of one either.

Apparently the Gp3 Panteras were using an iron version of these?

Thanks for posting.

Hi,
I got my racing calipers last day,
enjoy the pictures, the project "Pantera gr4", goes a little bit further...
Philippe




Philippe

They are beautiful. Too bad they will get dirty?

What do they weigh?

they are 4,1 kgs each ...

In consideration of George's post about front wheel spacers on the Gp3 cars, I wanted to follow up on these two calipers?

LarryW, have you tried the iron Maserati calipers on your car yet? Do they clear the stock Pantera 8" wheels or do you need a spacer? Did you figure out what the calipers themselves weigh in at? Probably the smart thing to do on the rotors would be to go to two piece aftermarket with aluminum hubs?

"72GTS, how do the aluminum Girling 18/4, 16/4 calipers fit? Do they clear the wheels without spacers?

Question for Bosswrench, since you have seen a couple of Gp3 cars in person, are these iron Maserati calipers the same ones that you saw on the Panteras?

4.1 kilograms converts to 9+ pounds.

I'm working on a similar setup as 72GTS.

I'll share what I can answer.

I went for BG's 18/4 for the front, 16/4 with integrated hand brake pads for the rear.

Going to vented in front, solid discs in the back. Discs are available sizes, had the hubs custom made as per own measurements, but general design based upon stock discs.

I can't speak for any stock wheel or so.
I bought mine with Albert wheels - aka, very early BBS wheels, but there would be no way to make those fit with the BG calipers, as they are waaaay wider!
Or you'd have to use spacers, but who would want to run one inch spacers... I don't!

Anyway, I'm switching to other wheels anyway, namely Basset "nascar" wheels, though that did only solve the problem partly. I shipped the 18/4's back to BG and had them made less wide.

The entire package doesn't come cheap, but I wanted to have decent brakes, thought still periodic correct by looks.

Still have to have some things to be modified, and adaptors made.

Work in progress...

Thank you for that information Kid.

The simplest and also the least expensive brake upgrade would be to go to one of the various Wilwood combinations. Certainly they would be lighter. That is an easy solution. Maybe too easy of a soulution?

I too want to make them look vintage correct. the 18/4 aluminum certainly fits that description. Expensively though.

I can't afford to make a mistake on this. I want to use the 15x8 Campi in the front. I'll accept a minimal spacer. That being less than 1/2" thick.

Few know of the specific issues with putting the 18/4 and 16/4 on the car. This is important information to me. I appreciate anyone sharing whatever they know on this subject.

Those Maserati Girlings look interesting as well. No question they are heavier that stock. Question is, do they need spacers too?

Thanks again.

If you need any specific measurements/pictures in regard to the 18/4's Doug, then let me know.

As for spacers, that will really depend on the wheel you intend to use.

Note, I had everything made in a way I changed the offset of disc/caliper too (more inwards), this because I wanted to prevent the use of a spacer. So far it looks I will succeed, if not, the spacer would be really minimal (max 2mm).

Oh, and before I had the calipers modified - more precisely the inner section - I modified their outer shape myself already, as per BG's advice, in an attempt to make them fit...

The only way I would use them is if I could use them with the 8" x 15" Campi.

I always wondered why the Gp3 Panteras used an iron caliper and not the 18/4, 16/4 aluminum units.

This might be the answer. They won't work with the Campi wheels?

I personally would like to see pictures of anything that you have done to make them work on the car.

I understand what you mean by using spacers on the calipers to move them inboard to clear the wheels. I've done that before on other cars.

The rotor can also be offset inboard to a certain amount as well. There are limitations to both and taking a disc grinder to a caliper that is this valuable is not my idea of a good solution. Not at this point anyway?

Thank you for the offer. I'm interested in seeing what you did with the brakes. Yes.

quote:

Question for Bosswrench, since you have seen a couple of Gp-3 cars in person, are these iron Maserati calipers the same ones that you saw on the Panteras?

Very similar. I'm hedging because Girling made many variations of their calipers front & rear. Some are alloy and some are iron but all use the pair-of-pliers style e-brake. All the Euro GTS/GR-3s and the GT-5/5S used iron 3-piston calipers (from a Rolls-Royce, modified) while the GR-4/GT-4s used aluminum 4-pistons, as did big-block Cobras. Alloy Girlings are also found on some Mangustas. But I know of one Goose with tiny iron 3-piston Girling rear calipers on 9" solid rotors. It also uses the same style e-brake. Those assemblies are off some model of Fiat.

To a certain "degree", I can only accept the period correct obsession/direction.

To fully incorporate the period correct approach , would also mean racing on period correct tire rubber compound.

I personally would favour "Safety" OVER "period correct"!!!...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
To a certain "degree", I can only accept the period correct obsession/direction.

To fully incorporate the period correct approach , would also mean racing on period correct tire rubber compound.

I personally would favour "Safety" OVER "period correct"!!!...Mark

Not to worry.

The Avon tires (tyres) were made for that reason. They look period correct but actually work quite well even in the wet. They in fact stick much better than even the "summer only" street tread patterns.

Even the BFG T/A's have an improved tread compound since they were purchased by Michelin. Many race teams of the era were using them as "racing wets" back in the day.

Since the Pantera is a "'70s" vehicle you could argue for either tire as "period correct"...just sayin', so you should know and feel safe about the "vintage look"?

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:

quote:

Question for Bosswrench, since you have seen a couple of Gp-3 cars in person, are these iron Maserati calipers the same ones that you saw on the Panteras?

Very similar. I'm hedging because Girling made many variations of their calipers front & rear. Some are alloy and some are iron but all use the pair-of-pliers style e-brake. All the Euro GTS/GR-3s and the GT-5/5S used iron 3-piston calipers (from a Rolls-Royce, modified) while the GR-4/GT-4s used aluminum 4-pistons, as did big-block Cobras. Alloy Girlings are also found on some Mangustas. But I know of one Goose with tiny iron 3-piston Girling rear calipers on 9" solid rotors. It also uses the same style e-brake. Those assemblies are off some model of Fiat.

Since genuine and original Gp3 and Gp4 cars are kinda hard to come by these days, can we get someone with a GT 5 to post some brake pictures here maybe?

Are there any cross-over part numbers from that car to other car manufacturers you know of Bosswrench?

Actually I've been looking at Girling calipers and they all are not pretty and all are very ugly hunks of iron.



Even those 18-4's aren't anything to put into a beauty contest.



When I Googled LarryW's Maserati Quatroporto, they all come up as Brembos with a "Maserati" logo on them.

The "hot" caliper to look at I think is the Volvo "R" caliper. That car has got massive brakes on it.



For me, I may just come to the conclusion that by far the simplest thing to do, and the most cost effective, is to mill off the Wilwood logo on the brake calipers and go that way and make those work? After all it would seem that everyone has gone to the two piece "race" type rotors with the separate aluminum hub hat and bolt on brake ring already?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I personally would like to see pictures of anything that you have done to make them work on the car.

I understand what you mean by using spacers on the calipers to move them inboard to clear the wheels. I've done that before on other cars.

The rotor can also be offset inboard to a certain amount as well. There are limitations to both and taking a disc grinder to a caliper that is this valuable is not my idea of a good solution. Not at this point anyway?

I'll see to make some time to post pics of what I've done so far, and some measurements etc.

Btw, a grinder... I used a handsaw, a file, and sandpaper ;-) (really).

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I personally would like to see pictures of anything that you have done to make them work on the car.

I understand what you mean by using spacers on the calipers to move them inboard to clear the wheels. I've done that before on other cars.

The rotor can also be offset inboard to a certain amount as well. There are limitations to both and taking a disc grinder to a caliper that is this valuable is not my idea of a good solution. Not at this point anyway?

I'll see to make some time to post pics of what I've done so far, and some measurements etc.

Btw, a grinder... I used a handsaw, a file, and sandpaper ;-) (really).

Those 18/4’s do have „bumps” on the outside, their sole purpose to be able to add a brand name or logo to the caliper.
Those bumps do add a 3mm per side.

But one has a problem - oho, my calipers are way to wide, and I want to reduce their width as much as possible.
You have a talk with BG, and they say - machine those bumps off, as they are of no use for you.

Me no have machines at my disposal, but two good hands, and lots of hand tools :-)

You take a handsaw, and saw slots in the bump

Once that done, you knock what’s left off by use of a chisel and hammer - easy thingy :-)

Then, the filing starts...

Start with a rough one, end with a fine one…

Almost done :-)


Time for sandpaper…


Fel free to check straightness with a ruler!


The very same caliper repainted after I had the mid section modified too.
More about that later...






Getting things like this done with basic tools, and by hand, I love it!

Modifying brakes -and steering- are both serious subjects and I (or George) assumes no responsibility for your work. Be warned!

For those NOT looking for exact Gr-4 appearances, its pretty simple to adapt Wilwood 4-piston calipers to a '71-76 Pantera. Wilwood Superlite ll calipers have mount holes that are slightly too small. So you elongate the bolt holes and oversize them on new centers closer together. Then using the inner tapped hole with a stock bolt, you mark, drill and metric-tap a third hole for the stock mounting bolt in the steering arm. No adapter needed but you may need a shim to center the pads, depending on what vented rotor you adapt.

On some Panteras, the fresh drilled-&-tapped hole gets VERY close to the edge of the forged-steel steering arm (the reason for respacing the Wilwood mount-holes closer together), so on some cars, a small gas-welded 'lump' of steel can be added and filed smooth, to reinforce the threaded hole against cracking. That part of the steering arm does not take steering loads, only loads from the caliper. Our car was so modified some 16 years ago and no problems so far with thousands of miles and many open track days.

My ATE 2-piston aluminum calipers from a '70s 911-S Porsche look similar to the very expensive aluminum 4-piston race-Girlings and to the calipers shown in above posts. They are front calipers I adapted with a bracket to fit in back, in place of the toy-Girling 1-piston stockers. If you do this, be prepared to rig up some sort of legal e-brake to replace that built into the Girling rear stockers.

The ATEs & vented 911 rotors are good brakes; we lost both front brakes in the OEM master cylinder going to 'Vegas one year with Judy driving. The other Panteras had left 30 minutes before we did. She caught the rest of the Nor-Cal pack in the mountains using only the rears, then stayed with them to 'Vegas. She commented that the brake pedal 'got kinda long....' but otherwise drove fine. I drove us home after the Fun Rally, and replaced the pitted master cylinder with a Byars power assembly. 600 miles on rear brakes only with Porterfield pads. We were not driving 55 mph.

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:
I'm working on a similar setup as 72GTS.

I'll share what I can answer.

I went for BG's 18/4 for the front, 16/4 with integrated hand brake pads for the rear.

Going to vented in front, solid discs in the back. Discs are available sizes, had the hubs custom made as per own measurements, but general design based upon stock discs.

I can't speak for any stock wheel or so.
I bought mine with Albert wheels - aka, very early BBS wheels, but there would be no way to make those fit with the BG calipers, as they are waaaay wider!
Or you'd have to use spacers, but who would want to run one inch spacers... I don't!

Anyway, I'm switching to other wheels anyway, namely Basset "nascar" wheels, though that did only solve the problem partly. I shipped the 18/4's back to BG and had them made less wide.

The entire package doesn't come cheap, but I wanted to have decent brakes, thought still periodic correct by looks.

Still have to have some things to be modified, and adaptors made.

Work in progress...

Hello Kid
I've been away from my Pantera project for a long time, but will soon work on the car again ... did you make the hats now ? do you have some infos on that please ?
Thanks
Philippe

Yes Philippe, I do have my discs/hats made.

I can share the (rather basic) drawings I got from BG with you - I'll drop you a pm.

The calipers as they originally were.


And as they are now - "shaved" off bumps, and made less wide.


The shaving made them about 6mm less wide, the other mod did took an other 14mm from their initial width. As a whole their width got reduced by 20mm (0,787 inch).

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:
Yes Philippe, I do have my discs/hats made.

I can share the (rather basic) drawings I got from BG with you - I'll drop you a pm.

The calipers as they originally were.


And as they are now - "shaved" off bumps, and made less wide.


The shaving made them about 6mm less wide, the other mod did took an other 14mm from their initial width. As a whole their width got reduced by 20mm (0,787 inch).

Kid
What are your wheels specs ? I have Bassett wheels too ... I ´m surprised you had to cut the calipers so much...
Here's my mail
philippe.tourmeau@wanadoo.fr
Kind regards

Can the pistons be compressed all the way into the caliper so that they are flush with the face as delivered or is that a modification?