Wanted To Buy Headers for Cleveland 4V heads

Are the headers you have removed from a Pantera application? Does the T70 carry the engine the same way as a Pantera?

That a great question Larry, I do not know the origins of the headers on my car but I believe they are original to the replica which was built by a company called Marauder.  I believe they are close to the Pantera design and fitment. The chassis layout is mid-engined and very similar to the Pantera.

The dimensions can be seen in the photo below but they are approximately 14" tall and 17" long. I expect that I will have to pay a local exhaust shop to modify the exhaust to fit any new headers I purchase. I am also considering the possibility of having the current headers modified to match the 4V ports, but they are old and corroded. removing the rust and repainting them is actually how I discovered this issue.

Pantera GTS headers pictured above.

your headers are very, very short‼️

The collector flange looks to be about even with the back of the heads. The Pantera headers typically extend six or 7 inches past the rear of the heads

Larry

Larry, thank you for bringing that to my attention! It does make sense because my exhaust is routed above the transaxle / rear suspension. I will send you a private message but I am interested if you want to sell the headers in the photograph?

https://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/

These folks have the flanges you'll need if you decide to modify what you have.

Tell them what you need. I bought just one to use as a spacer to resolve an interference issue.

Elliot. The headers that you have resemble Hall Pantera's headers.

Theirs are 1-3/4" primaries also.

Yours may be this header that was shortened.

You can still get them new from Hall.

The GTS header is a nice piece with 2" primaries but is anyone selling them new now? They look like they would be easy to shorten?

By comparison, SL73/111 had much wider positioned (Chevy) headers, to allow space for it's FIA suitcase,

with 2 huge descending tail pipes the size of an 18 wheeler's,

to exit with a roar below the bodywork besides another FIA requirement - the spare tire mount.

More pictures of your Lola please, maybe in the Pub - "Pictures of Member's other cars"

Ron - Are you in any of those pictures?

Cool stuff!

I agree, this board needs more Lola!

Chuck

@panteradoug posted:

The headers that you have resemble Hall Pantera's headers.

Theirs are 1-3/4" primaries also.

Hello Doug,

They are close but the fabrication on mine seems slightly less professional. Do the Hall headers have the larger 4V ports? If so how do they manage the transition to the 1-3/4" diameter pipe? Even my headers with the 2V flange step down to the 1-3/4" pipes. I saw this set on ebay and it appears to have a very abrupt reduction from the flange to the tubing, is this common?

@panttera posted:

By comparison, SL73/111 had much wider positioned (Chevy) headers, to allow space for it's FIA suitcase, with 2 huge descending tail pipes the size of an 18 wheeler's, to exit with a roar below the bodywork besides another FIA requirement - the spare tire mount.

Thank you for the wonderful pictures of SL73/111, its quite a beast to behold!

My replica is not very true to the original, the dimension are correct and the body panels are accurate, but the chassis is steel and does not resemble the original.

My car belonged to a neighbor who ordered it new from Marauder. He used to come flying down the street I grew up on and I could always hear the car before it arrived. The car became a little too cumbersome for the original owner as he aged and he purchased a new Porsche to replace it. It sat neglected and street parked for many years until he finally decided to sell it. I am currently a college student and in my spare time I am working on slowly brining the car back to life but its list of needs is quite long. The exhaust is just the start of it. I am also quickly learning how costly these endeavors can be. Eventually, when I have more time and a proper work space I plan to construct a new aluminum chassis in as close to original specification as possible.

I am in contact with a local seller who has a set of what appear to be Hall Pantera Headers, the price is very reasonable and the seller seems like a nice guy.

He sent me a photo of the flange. To my surprise it has a round aperture that matches the 1-3/4" diameter primary pipes. I expected the header flange to match the larger cylinder head opening rather than the smaller pipe.

Am I mistaken in thinking this would have poor flow characteristics and kill performance? It seems like this would be as much of an issue as my 2V flanges.

If I am misunderstanding this please explain it me, I am totally new Clevelands and I don't fully understand what they need to make power.

It is preferred to match the exhaust flange opening to the shape of the head ports.  These are for a different head that has round exhaust ports.  Someone will chime in with the brand.  Seek another solution.

Here are a couple of more pictures of the Hall header.

The port is round. They do not step down.

The picture that you posted is of the Pat Michal header. They're nice but they are $1,200.

If you are going to worry about the header port matching the head of the 4v iron head, then you expect too much out of the head and just go for aftermarket aluminum ones with raised ports.

The exhaust port on the original 4v head is not optimum at all.

You CAN get the iron heads to "work" but particularly on the exhaust side, you need radical modifications to it.

I think in this case, it isn't necessarily the shape of the port that is an issue, it's the size of the tubes. 2" primaries are what you want and something like 34-36" long.

IF you really want headers that are optimized for YOUR application, talk to Ron Mcall, aka, rmcall here, and let him build them for you.

@jtpantera posted:

It is preferred to match the exhaust flange opening to the shape of the head ports.  These are for a different head that has round exhaust ports.  Someone will chime in with the brand.  Seek another solution.

Thank you, I didn't realize that they made heads with round ports. That makes much more sense, than round flanges on square ports.

I do not think you have Hall headers . They look like modified Mind Train headers.

I have two sets, these on the hook and the other on the car. Both have the oval shaped flange, and both appear 'too small'.

Mind train headers were designed for Panteras alone. No longer made, snapped up pretty quick when a decent set comes available.

I found that a set of Stinger SS port tongues took the curse off the mismatch and introduced the favored 'D' shape to the outlet at the head and matched the header opening well, after nicking the boogers off some welds.

@Elliott posted:

Thank you, I didn't realize that they made heads with round ports. That makes much more sense, than round flanges on square ports.

Ford didn't on production iron heads. There are some in the aftermarket. My A3 aluminum "Ford Motorsports" heads do but they are also "raised ports".

"Gurney-Westlake" 289 heads also have round exhausts.

The iron 289 "GT40" heads might also have round exhausts but my memory on those is a little fuzzy? I haven't looked at those in years.

Header shapes are strange animals. I'm pretty sure that the exhaust port flow numbers are most useful/valuable with 3" radius "stubbies" bolted up to them.

Cleveland exhaust ports are more then a little strange anyway. Some testers have shown better numbers with smaller (1-3/4") tubes but the "drag" cars were using 2-1/8" tubes but they were "tuned" for different torque/hp/rpm characteristics.

There are some step tube headers that are a more modern design and squeeze more power out of the exhausts and 180 designs which may also use step size tubes.

That is a science all it's own and generic statements as to tube size can be harmful rather then helpful there.

On a competitive race car EXPECT to spend a lot on headers and exhausts and they are going to NEED to be made for you on the chassis/car, not generic headers.

Ford shaped the exhaust ports of the Cleveland 4V head to work in Mustangs and the like, where the exhaust gas flow had to turn down quickly and stay tight to the block. This kept the ports low on the head. I don't think there's any other stock application where headers exit the head at the angle Pantera headers do. If you choose to stay with the Cleveland 4V iron head, that compromise is tough to overcome. You may want to consider some of the modern aluminum heads with raised ports before you have headers built. Or, if you want old school, Ford SVO parts, like the early C-3s, A3 or C302B.

@larryw posted:

Ford shaped the exhaust ports of the Cleveland 4V head to work in Mustangs and the like, where the exhaust gas flow had to turn down quickly and stay tight to the block. This kept the ports low on the head. I don't think there's any other stock application where headers exit the head at the angle Pantera headers do. If you choose to stay with the Cleveland 4V iron head, that compromise is tough to overcome. You may want to consider some of the modern aluminum heads with raised ports before you have headers built. Or, if you want old school, Ford SVO parts, like the early C-3s, A3 or C302B.

Larry,

Thank you for your help, I have decided to follow your advice and buy new flanges for my existing headers. For the time being, I will try and space them as you described and see how that works. This will be an easy improvement until I have the budget for a custom exhaust and maybe even new aluminum heads.

My engine is not as comfortable in the upper 5k+ rev range as I would like it to be. It currently has a dual plane aluminum intake and a Holley 4160 600cfm carb. I bought a single plane Edelbrock Torker intake and I am also planning on upgrading to a 750cfm carburetor. I also have a new DUI distributor and wires that I will be installing at the same time. I hope that the engine will be more comfortable above 5000 rpm with these mods.

Once I get the car running again (I currently have the rear suspension uprights disassembled) I am considering upgrading to a new camshaft and I have been looking at some of the kits offered by Comp Cams.

Elliott, please look for a PM.